[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[thunderjet]

Well it's like this: If your protocol dictates that you require to draw up to twice as much fiat from markets to keep your coin alive compared to competitors then maybe that explains why it only has a quarter to half the value that they do. So you're right it's only my opinion, but only in the same sense that if I look out the window and see a wet road, I assume it's been raining = "only my opinion" but the leading logical candidate all the same.

Trading Cycles do not remotely account for this. They operate in channels and you're being generous in even including us in the same channel as them as we long since dropped out of it.

Well, what can I say? You keep repeating the same old tired circular logic. Let me attempt to sum up your doctrine: "DASH is not competitive because of masternode rewards and because of masternode rewards DASH is not competitive."

Ok then, I'm bored of this. I'll remind you when DASH's marketcap is double that of XMR's. I also fully expect DASH to easily hit 0.03 BTC within the next year and if it can break past that will spike up to unstable values of 0.07 BTC and above.

I also think that 45% is way too much reward for masternodes and it made some unwanted concentracion of power. You said in one of yours previous posts,how miners during bear market even sell at lose.Yes,but 99% of them can do it for a very,very short period of time.If you take a look at DASH mining profitability you can clearly see that DASH miners is in deep loss for a long period of time(even with cheap electricity of $0.05/kWh),but it seems that it does not effect miners too much or hash power.Even with price of electricity of $0.03 DASH miners will be at big loss.

Are these miners crazy and mining DASH at loss for a such long time? I dont think so.Only way to keep mining of DASH profitable during prolonged bear market is combination of very cheap electricity and possesion of masternodes in percentage which is at least equal miners percentage in hashrate.Miners can held some portion of mined coins for some time during bull market and sell them later,but during bear market they dont take chances and sell them almost at once.So in DASH case ,these miners are no regular miners at all,but big whale speculators which thanks to 45% free reward for masternodes pushed price down,deep in unprofitable zone for regular miners,removing them from market to create artificially low price for a long time,getting in possesion of extremely cheap coins from desperate investors forced to sell coins to just get away from huge losses.

Such extreme market squeeze(Dash/BTC pair fell to value very close to ATL of 0.0055 BTC for 1 DASH,which as i know not at one big and medium size coin didnt reach)  is possible because present of excessive reward for masternodes.Without it ,big holders-whales will be forced to keep price enough profitable for majority of regular miners just to keep network safe.That made this unhealthy combination of speculator&miner which is holding DASH to the ground through combination of combined market/miner power.

Were LTC miners profitable? How about XMR miners? I don't think so either... DASH went thru exactly one true bull market so far. It is quite common for an asset to retrace all the way back to its starting point before starting the next cycle. If I look at XMR's chart it's not too dissimilar... it took longer in the beginning for people to pick up on this coin but basically 0.005 BTC was its starting point before the bull market and it retraced all the way back before starting its next cycle. LTC has 2 bull markets behind it, and reached a lower high the second time but perhaps the good news for it is that it reached a higher low this last bear market. Against the USD I predict all 3 coins will almost certainly reach ATH's in the coming year or so. These speculative cycles will continue to be extreme until something closer to mass adoption is achieved or a coin gradually dies and fades away.

Regarding the centralization... I think DASH needs to have trustless shared masternodes and/or savings accounts for regular DASH holders to earn (and vote) too. Not only would this help with decentralization, it would likely create a new wave of interest for DASH.

From about May till today we saw how number of masternodes increased for about 400 - so 400.000 DASH needed for it, should be removed from market and we should see quite price rise (whole sum of sell orders on few main exchanges is about 25.000 coins).That didnt happen ,because big speculator/miners used mined coins to get additional masternodes and make theirs grip on coin network even stronger.

Is this just conjecture on your part or do you have hard evidence that DASH miners are setting up masternodes? Perhaps it didn't happen as you expected because exchanges like Binance are setting up masternodes with their users' coins.

Technically,not just Dash,but all crypto coins,except stablecoins cant be considered as a store of value due to excessive volatility.Yes,you are right ,BTC and ETH are only coins which entered bull market. ZEC is very close,XMR also,DASH and LTC not so close.From mine experience altcons can be considered in bull phase before on 2W  chart coin/BTC pair,  EMA-7 and EMA-30 make confirmed cross above. Coin/USD pair 2W cross cant be considered reliable,but can be precursor of major push when 2W coin/BTC pair are closing crossing too.

For DASH/USD pair, 2W crossing is very close after 2 failed attempt in previous months.In next 2,max. 4 weeks, it will be crossed,possible with enough momentum to make DASH/BTC 2W cross too.We will see.

Short term, crypto is not a good store of value, sure. But holders of DASH, XMR, LTC since 2014-2016 are all doing much better than if they stayed in USD. I would argue stablecoins might be the worst store of value long term but good to ride out a crypto bear market. Fiat currencies are meant to be spent as soon as possible because they consistently lose value (in fact are designed to lose value). Saving cash under your mattress is one of the worst ways to save money since at least 1970.

As long as BTC can continue its bullish trend, alts will increasingly recover. Once BTC hits it's previous ATH and hovers and stalls around there for awhile, the good alts will within months reach their own previous ATH's (USD-wise anyway). Then it will be interesting to see how high this goes. Could be a mega-bullrun if mass adoption is on the way or could be another bubble which pops with 70-90+% pullback again.

LTC miners are in good profit zone with $0.05 cost of electricity,DASH miners are at loss even with $0.03...

XMR miners are at loss,but if you look at XMR hashrate chart, it is pretty flat for a long period of time.At the other hand, DASH hashrate doubled for same period of time.Why would anybody invest in mining DASH when it is unprofitable even with $0.03 price of electricity?  Nobody will waste money just like that. DASH is profitable,but only and only if you posses masternodes in equal or bigger percentage of your part in hashrate. That is a catch. Big holders whose posses a lot of masternodes due to 45-45% sharing mining reward betweeen miners and masternodes operators have a huge leverage to push price way down of pure miners profit zone,removed them for market and completely dominate mining,market supply and price of coin.Such concentracion of power is always very bad for coin.

Dash retraced far below other coins. Look at LTC and XMR you mentioned. LTC value just before 2017 pump was 0.003 BTC.During this bear market,LTC lowest price hit 0.0048 BTC,or 60% up from lowest price during last bear market.

If we look at XMR, its ATL is about 0.001 BTC. During this bear market XMR lowest price hits 0.0054 BTC which is  5.4x bigger than lowest price during last bear market.

Then DASH. Its lowest price in 2017,before bull run was 0.01 BTC.In 2016 price was also about 0.009-0.01 BTC. During this bear market it hits 0.0053 BTC,so price went 2x less,making new ATL hitting price lower than in 2015... DASH performance is not just bad,but extremely bad in comparison with other coins. What message it sends to investors ? In one thing we agree,due to low supply and unnatural unification of big holders ,masternode operators and miners,DASH is ideal toy for the most extreme pumping/dumping.

One more thing.Binance couldnt establish 400 new masternodes,because whole sum of DASH on it is about 8000 coins,enough for only 8 nodes.

[1714952514]

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[1714952514]

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[1714952514]

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[qwizzie]

The Dash project started 18th of January 2014
I invested in Dash 4 months later (May 2014) and became a masternode operator pretty soon after that.  That is also when i became involved with Dash testnet,
Dash forum and this Bitcointalk forum. As a masternode operator i voted yes on this first budget proposal, as i saw marketing and promotion value for Dash.
It just happened to also be a rare and good opportunity to see some of the Dash Core Group members in real life and shake hands with them.  

Well that explains that then  

Seems like it was a good move on your part. How long after that event did you get involved with Dash?

It was in my own country, and i live near Amsterdam. Easy decision to make  

[qwizzie]

One more thing.Binance couldnt establish 400 new masternodes,because whole sum of DASH on it is about 8000 coins,enough for only 8 nodes.

Where exactly did you get your information that Binance whole sum of Dash is about 8000 coins ?
And are you aware that Dash locked savings on Binance removes the locked Dash from Binance users spot accounts and temporarily store them somewhere else ?

Why would anybody invest in mining DASH when it is unprofitable even with $0.03 price of electricity?  Nobody will waste money just like that

I heard people ask this question before way way back in 2014 and i am sure people will ask it again, whenever the Dash price is low or under pressure.

DASH is profitable,but only and only if you posses masternodes in equal or bigger percentage of your part in hashrate.

Just your opinion, and not a very logical opinion if you ask me.

Miners will then have to invest in : mining equipment, paying for electricity, paying for the Dash collateral of 1000 Dash, paying for server costs.
More miners operating masternodes would naturally lead to more resistance to budget proposals that are acting against the miners interest.
There are no signs that is happening. The Dash Core Group blockreward reallocation decision proposal showed overwhelming masternodes support for reducing mining rewards.

Not to mention that you can't posses masternodes in equal or bigger percentage of your part in hashrate, as masternodes are restricted to a 1000 Dash collateral.
Even staking on exchanges* is more profitable these days, then setting up a Dash masternode **.

*  

https://www.binance.com/en/support/articles/af64a497b040498f85c573baf4f24fcb (7,12% annual)
https://dashnews.org/smart-valor-swiss-cryptocurrency-exchange-offers-staking-rewards-for-dash-users/ (6,9% annual)
https://www.bitmart.com/staking/en (8% annual)

** https://www.stakingrewards.com/earn/dash (5,65% annual)

Miners could of course try one of the many shared hosting services out there (no 1000 Dash collateral restriction), but then they would have to place trust in that shared hosting service provider
by sending that provider their collateral Dash amount and still be less profitable then staking on an exchange. I really don't see the attraction for miners there either.

[jdmcg]

LTC miners are in good profit zone with $0.05 cost of electricity,DASH miners are at loss even with $0.03...

XMR miners are at loss,but if you look at XMR hashrate chart, it is pretty flat for a long period of time.At the other hand, DASH hashrate doubled for same period of time.Why would anybody invest in mining DASH when it is unprofitable even with $0.03 price of electricity?  Nobody will waste money just like that. DASH is profitable,but only and only if you posses masternodes in equal or bigger percentage of your part in hashrate. That is a catch. Big holders whose posses a lot of masternodes due to 45-45% sharing mining reward betweeen miners and masternodes operators have a huge leverage to push price way down of pure miners profit zone,removed them for market and completely dominate mining,market supply and price of coin.Such concentracion of power is always very bad for coin.

Ok, so XMR and DASH are unprofitable to mine at the moment... but still you're assuming that DASH miners are setting up masternodes because the hashrate doubled. Could be but I don't call that hard evidence.

Dash retraced far below other coins. Look at LTC and XMR you mentioned. LTC value just before 2017 pump was 0.003 BTC.During this bear market,LTC lowest price hit 0.0048 BTC,or 60% up from lowest price during last bear market.

If we look at XMR, its ATL is about 0.001 BTC. During this bear market XMR lowest price hits 0.0054 BTC which is  5.4x bigger than lowest price during last bear market.

Then DASH. Its lowest price in 2017,before bull run was 0.01 BTC.In 2016 price was also about 0.009-0.01 BTC. During this bear market it hits 0.0053 BTC,so price went 2x less,making new ATL hitting price lower than in 2015... DASH performance is not just bad,but extremely bad in comparison with other coins. What message it sends to investors ? In one thing we agree,due to low supply and unnatural unification of big holders ,masternode operators and miners,DASH is ideal toy for the most extreme pumping/dumping.

Only if you discount the first 4 months of DASH's existence... it was at 0.001 BTC as well. I see it as splitting hairs to really say much is different between the 2 charts other than that DASH pumped earlier and than ultimately higher. XMR and DASH were largely valued the same per coin last bear market and look at that, valued almost the same this bear market. Btw, both DASH and XMR were created in the 2014 bear market so for them it wasn't really a bear market. You can check out some of the newer coins released during the 2018 bear market like ATOM, XTZ. They haven't really had a bear market either.

For LTC, it has gone thru its own bear market to compare with and yes, higher low and lower high (2014 bear market/2017 bull market). This might be a clue as to how DASH, XMR and LTC perform the next bull and bear markets relative to BTC...

One more thing.Binance couldnt establish 400 new masternodes,because whole sum of DASH on it is about 8000 coins,enough for only 8 nodes.

How are you determining that? And do you think Binance is the only exchange setting up masternodes?

[qwizzie]

30M Time interval

Source : https://cryptowat.ch/charts/HITBTC:DASH-BTC?period=30m

1D Time Interval

Source : https://cryptowat.ch/charts/HITBTC:DASH-BTC?period=1d

Dash price getting closer to 0.008848 BTC, will Dash flip it into support and break into 0.009 BTC ? Stay tuned.....
Bitcoin Marketcap Dominance : 58,3%

[toknormal]

So miners are using masternodes to subsidize uneconomic mining ? I hadn't thought about that scenario but now it starts to make sense.

How is that consistent with the "we don't need all this hashrate" policy ?

Surely that is yet another indication that the "sweet spot" in reward ratio has been wrongly identified and ineffectual since the market is simply correcting for it. (At the cost of unhealthy concentration of supply).

[qwizzie]

I see that broken clock is still ticking away

tik - tok - tik - tok - tik - tok

Also i am pretty sure by now that broken clock will never ever admit to being so very wrong with its market theory.
Even when Dash passes Monero in marketcap.

That is sad, but not totally unexspected. Broken clock after all even contemplated forking Dash.
I guess we will be stuck with this broken clock for quite some time.

[toknormal]

tik - tok - tik - tok - tik - tok

Why don't you take a break from your gatekeeper role and actually discuss some of these issues. It would be healthier all round. thunderjet has just made a very significant point...

LTC miners are in good profit zone with $0.05 cost of electricity,DASH miners are at loss even with $0.03...At the other hand, DASH hashrate doubled for same period of time...DASH is profitable,but only and only if you posses masternodes in equal or bigger percentage of your part in hashrate.

You don't need evidence for this. The fact that there's economic incentive is enough. It explains a great deal.

Also look at the market movement this morning - 18k or more in a single trade out of nowhere on just 1 exchange that I looked at. So don't say that masternodes don't churn either. They do, potentially as much as the rest of the supply.

[qwizzie]

It would be nice if people were actually making valid points or valid claims with evidence supporting it.
Instead of throwing around a bunch of personal opinions and displaying their subjective view on things.

One more thing.Binance couldnt establish 400 new masternodes,because whole sum of DASH on it is about 8000 coins,enough for only 8 nodes.

Still waiting on the evidence to support the claim that Binance whole sum of Dash is about 8000 coins.

[toknormal]

It would be nice if people were actually making valid points with evidence supporting it.
Instead of throwing around a bunch of personal opinions and displaying their subjective view on things.

At a rough guess, miners generate the equivalent of 12-13 masternodes per week. Masternode subsidized mining is a scenario supported by this coin's protocol. It isn't possible in any other mined coin so to whatever extent it occurs in practice it's a valid point because it recovers the lost mining reward and changes the economic incentives for miners.

It's just yet another example of the flawed assumptions behind the current reward split policy - that masternodes and miners are a mutually exclusive group. (Though maybe that's the whole idea, if undeclared. I remember Evan wanted to implement a system where you had to hold Dash to mine in the first place. I can't remember what it was called).

It's also another example of how where policy of margin parity would be effective since it would mitigate this behaviour.

[qwizzie]

One more thing.Binance couldnt establish 400 new masternodes,because whole sum of DASH on it is about 8000 coins,enough for only 8 nodes.

Still waiting on the evidence to support the claim that Binance whole sum of Dash is about 8000 coins.

@toknormal : since you are so anxious to defend his post, please explain that to us.

While you are at that please also explain why miners would choose to setup masternodes with lower ROI over staking on exchanges with much higher ROI ?

Exchanges staking Dash

https://www.binance.com/en/support/articles/af64a497b040498f85c573baf4f24fcb (7,12% annual)
https://dashnews.org/smart-valor-swiss-cryptocurrency-exchange-offers-staking-rewards-for-dash-users/ (6,9% annual)
https://www.bitmart.com/staking/en (8% annual)

Masternode hosting

** https://www.stakingrewards.com/earn/dash (5,65% annual)

If i were a miner and interested in creating an additional revenue stream for myself, i would just stake on Bitmart, Smart Valor or Binance.
1000 Dash collateral not needed, paying server costs not needed and way more profits.

[toknormal]

@toknormal : since you are so anxious to defend his post, please explain that to us.

Don't do the gatekeeping strawman thing now qwizzie.

You know that Binance remark wasn't the essence of his point. It was the broader issue that MSM (Masternode Subsidized Mining) is now a thing - or more significantly is both supported and increasingly encouraged by the Dash protocol.

You now have 2 examples of the principle that the market acts independently of the protocol to resolve margin disparities. One is that it can devalue the capital value of the coin to effect this (which it has done to a greater extent with Dash than it did with competing 100% mined assets as thunderjet's post describes) and now we can add MSM to that.

[qwizzie]

i am not defending a post that is just riddled with personal opinions and numbers that don't make any sense.
You are, toknormal. All in an effort to redirect attention to your all-explaining market theory that is lacking supportive
evidence.

Comes across as a bit desperate. Also does not explain why miners would choose masternodes with lower ROI over
staking on exchanges with higher ROI, for an additional revenue stream.

I guess you gonna ignore that too.

[qwizzie]

Quick headsup :

Dash price : 0.008404 / $99,75
Price increase over the last 24 hrs : 6,39%

[toknormal]

i am not defending a post that is just riddled with personal opinions and numbers that don't make any sense.
You are, toknormal. All in an effort to redirect attention to your all-explaining market theory that is lacking supportive
evidence.

You have nothing but supporting evidence in front of you. I was careful to distinguish between saying that Masternode Subsidized Mining WAS going on and that it was supported and incentivized by the protocol economics.

More broadly, you know what worries me about this whole strategy ? It's that it looks like an exit plan. I'm not saying it IS one, I'm just saying it looks like one and that is worrying because I'd quite like to stay invested in this asset, at least to a significant extent long term and don't want to be forced out of it by yet another humungous pump & dump.

Against that background lets look at the what's been proposed (and supported by voting):

1. DCH presentation acknowledged that the reward disparity had been both positive and negative for Dash, but that one of the negative effects was instability - we got a huge pump and huge dump. So what to they propose ? INCREASING IT EVEN MORE !  

2. The declared forecast effect of that is that another 1000 or so masternodes get sucked up which will trigger another masternode gold rush pump

But what happens when we hit the next ceiling ? Lets say at 5500 or 6000 nodes ? Why can we not expect exactly the same result ? A massive dump back to the dark ages. At that point the supply shock will be phenomenal because we'll have the dual effect of drainage for MN collateral hitting a brick wall PLUS most of the new supply hitting the market from a huge number of masternodes generating 100% profit rewards.

That is just insane. It's clearly not a sustainable policy and the only reason I can see for promoting it is to invoke an exit pump in time for the next crypto bull run. The way to "stabilise" Dash's store of value would have been to set the margins at parity.

Like I say, I'm not saying this IS the plan, I'm just saying it LOOKS like it. It's an incentive to dump before the MN count hits that next ceiling - at least I'm interpreting it that way and if I am the chances that many others are too.

[qwizzie]

Dash Core Group found a possible problem with our circulating supply growth rate growing too fast over the years and continue growing too fast in the nearby future,
causing high circulating supply inflation and decreasing Dash chance of staying competitive in the crypto space. This circulating supply growth rate and inflation is hit hardest on Dash users
and less on masternode operators & miners (as they keep receiving part of the blockrewards). For users it simply means that Dash growing circulating supply growth rate is diluting their Dash over time.
More dilution in the early years, less dilution in later years. But users keep getting hit hardest.

Dash emission schedule will reduce our circulating supply growth and circulating supply inflation naturally over time, but it will take at least 10 years before Dash emission rate will reach a level on par
with other competing crypto projects. Crypto projects that either have much older blockchains (Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash) so they have a low circulating supply growth rate by now or because their unique
emission schedule got them to that level much more early (Monero : 90% already mined, causing a very low circulating supply growth rate).

Best solution for Dash without rocking the boat too much (meaning without going full Proof of Stake or without messing with our emission rate schedule directly) :
Improve Dash Store of Value, by adjusting the blockrewards allocation split where more of blockrewards go to masternodes (+9%) and less go to miners (-9%).

Link :

Dash Core Group Presentation on Dash Economics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUf76R2V3pY

The rational behind this is that this will give an incentive for investors to buy more Dash collateral (1000 Dash) to setup new masternodes, which will then reduce the circulating supply as more and more Dash collateral
is parked on a cold wallet address / hardware wallet address somewhere long term. Once the blockreward reallocation has been fully processed in 4 or 5 years, we will have less a problem with our
circulating supply. That is the working theory at least. If this theory is correct, more masternodes will be setup, number of masternodes will grow and the interval between masternode
payments will increase too (it is currently at 8.5 days). Ultimately this will lead to a situation where masternode operators receive less masternode payments over time, but with higher Dash amounts to compensate.

This is all intended as a temporary solution (a quick fix solution) in order for Dash to circumvent a limited period in our emission schedule (next 5-10 years), that will continue to cause
high circulating supply growth rate problems.

I don't see an exit pump in this, i see an attempt to control our circulating supply growth rate for a limited time period (5-10 years), an attempt to negate the effects it has on our circulating supply.
In 10 years this will not matter because Dash emission rate schedule will have brought the circulating supply growth rate and inflation percentage down anyways. Which means we could either do
nothing and let the emission schedule play out its natural course for the next 10 years or we can try to circumvent some of that for a limited period of time by changing the blockreward allocation split.

Dash Core Group choose to initiate a discussion about the last and created a decision proposal about that.
The masternode operators backed that decision proposal massively.

Link : https://www.dashcentral.org/p/decision-proposal-block-reward-reallocat

 
Old blockreward allocation split  : 45% masternodes / 45% miners / 10% budget
New blockreward allocation split : 54% masternodes / 36% miners / 10% budget

Dash Core Group will also introduce a new decision proposal within a month, that contains the following :

Blockreward reallocation split of 48% Masternodes / 32% Miners / 20% Budget.
All leftover funding of that 20% budget gets distributed to both masternodes and miners in a 60 / 40 ratio.

I am feeling less optimistic about that decision proposal, i rather see the new blockreward  allocation split not changed
and any leftover funding of the 10% budget getting distributed to masternodes and miners in a 60 / 40 ratio.

Hopefully that option will be presented as well.

[toknormal]

I don't see an exit pump in this, i see an attempt to control our circulating supply growth rate for a limited time period (5-10 years)

Thankyou for taking the time to write that most excellently articulated and instructive account of the protocol policy. Very useful.

I can see the logic behind it given certain assumptions, but it's those assumptions that I feel are totally unsound. In particular the delineation of "circulating supply". I see this as arbitrary because masternode collateral is "circulating supply" just as non-masternode cold wallet supply is. Masternodes change hands and get churned and are tradeable assets just as any other part of the supply is.

I don't think supply growth is the problem - or at least not the fundamental one. We've got it whatever the level of nodecount there is and node collateral only mitigates this while it is growing. As soon as it stops growing we've got the problem again. And the nodecount ceiling isn't even determined by the reward ratio but the fragmentation of the supply which is probably exponential in nature so we'll just hit it again very quickly.

It's this equilibriium condition that should be addressed and that's where the margin parity approach would be much more successful because it optimally minimises the gross fiat budget we require to collect from markets to sustain the coin IMO.

Look - only this morning. 18 masternodes bought and 16 masternodes sold on the same exchange. That's "circulating supply" !  



The answer shines with clarity
It's margin parity
Never be so bold
To say nodes are never sold

Profit-takes enthrall
But not in the protocol
A smaller fiat call
Is sure to buoy us all

[qwizzie]

This thread is getting crowded with poets  

According an old Roman friend of mine a picture is a poem without words, so i am just going to leave this picture behind and let you all find the poem :



If pictures are indeed poems without words, i sure did a lot of poetry in here over the years thanks to imgur

[toknormal]

qwizzie's left his icon blacked
as grumbling tok has left him racked
posting "kooky thoughts" as fact
that challenge the digestive tract

chaotic circulating blue
the voters opted to subdue
"we've extolled and so should you"
to surf the planetary coup

[Tungi17]

New video demonstrating community projects built on Dash EvoNet during phase 2 of the Dash Platform Incubator proposal. The prototype DApps and tools shown in video include: EvoWallet, Jembe, Checkout and InStore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy8gO1C8fTs