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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9621005 times)
qwizzie
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August 15, 2020, 06:56:23 AM
Merited by aleix (1)

And it is official : New ATH in number of active masternodes



Onwards and upwards towards 5000

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Midas111
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August 15, 2020, 12:28:46 PM


Dash is already divisible. high price hasnt stopped bitcoin adoption

Ok, but I'm not suggesting otherwise...

I'm talking about something called Natural Number Bias... some reason we prefer whole numbers. Also, in other psychology, a subconscious assumption that a bigger number is better value.

So if someone has $5 to invest and just wants to get some crypto, 16 XRP may seem to be better value than 0.052 DASH simply because the number 16 is larger. And how many people actually prefer a small fraction of anything?

Or someone might rank a crypto as better just on it having a higher marketcap...

Large increases in price only help adoption. People making money attracts more people. Dash had this effect before, bitcoin has always increased popularity from its huge gains. the question is how do we get dash to increase mcap and stop being held down

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August 15, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2020, 02:38:42 PM by toknormal


The majority of the value in any coin/token is derived from pure speculation and with good reason. Any crypto that achieves or even comes close to mass adoption will make holders multi-millionaires at the very least...

Adoption for what ?

Most people that have adopted Dash, including most of those holders posting in this thread, have done so for store of value. The objective behind the recent protocol proposals and the split reward is to enhance Dash's store of value performance. That was categorically stated by the DCG announcement and original presentation back in December.

There's nothing inherently valuable with mining beyond protecting it from 51% attacks.

Believe this at your own risk I'd say.

For a start, this argument is completely disproved by market observations. I don't know why anybody even tries to promote it anymore. If you really think that investors are buying network security rather than token scarcity then the most cheaply secured mined blockchains would rise to the top of the rankings. But they don't, the ones with the biggest hashrates do - not because they expend the most energy but because they're demonstrably the most scarce.

Scarcity is not a numerical concept (i.e. you can't create scarcity simply by issuing a small number of anything), it's a reflection of the amount of effort required to acquire the thing. In blockchains, the cost of that effort puts an initial price on the next block. It is not a "speculative" value, it's real, based on the level of prevailing competition in effect at the point of mining the block.

A masternode reward coin is obtained at zero effort and zero cost. I can then theoretically pass that on to another holder for free without incurring a loss, and that user can and so on.

On the other hand, the next block reward in a mined coin cannot be obtained by ANYBODY for less than mining cost (dictated by the prevailing level of competition). Even if I held a million bitcoin like the Winklevosses I couldn't. It's therefore far more scarce by definition and a higher valuation follows. This is what we see in markets. It's what differentiates a supply that's 100% competitively mined and one that's inflated on a purely numerical basis since, in the latter case, we're talking ICO premine or fiat type monetary models which are a whole different ball game.

I don't know how this idea that securing the network cheaply leads lead to a high coin value took hold. It is such a bogus concept and embody's such a mis-understanding of how the market values mined digital assets that I didn't really think it would have legs but some people seem to buy it. Even Ryan didn't explain any mechanism by which a reduction in hashrate feeds through to a higher or more stable coin value. "Saving on hashrate" to boost store of value has about as much logic to it as making diamonds out of glass because they're cheaper to produce and thinking there's a market for them IMO.

Now, let's try to measure 'competitiveness' by taking snapshots of the marketcap from the beginning of the year until now

That is not a measure of competitiveness. By that measure you could demonstrate that a coin ranked at 200 position is "more competitive" than Bitcoin or Ethereum. The point to address is Dash's valuation against competing mined assets that do not have split reward ratios.

There's a very simple reason we're less competitive than them: we have to collect far more fiat from markets than they do, proportionally for each block mined. We need to collect the mining cost PLUS whatever proportion of the masternode reward is sold. As the masternode network gets larger, that overhead gets larger. Our competitors only have to collect the mining cost.
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August 15, 2020, 12:50:46 PM

Elaborate. Kindly explain in detail then point you are trying to make. Thank you.

Dash is already divisible. high price hasnt stopped bitcoin adoption

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August 15, 2020, 03:21:17 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2020, 03:32:34 PM by jdmcg


There's nothing inherently valuable with mining beyond protecting it from 51% attacks.

Believe this at your own risk I'd say.

For a start, this argument is completely disproved by market observations. I don't know why anybody even tries to promote it anymore. If you really think that investors are buying network security rather than token scarcity then the most cheaply secured mined blockchains would rise to the top of the rankings. But they don't, the ones with the biggest hashrates do - not because they expend the most energy but because they're demonstrably the most scarce.

Scarcity is not a numerical concept (i.e. you can't create scarcity simply by issuing a small number of anything), it's a reflection of the amount of effort required to acquire the thing. In blockchains, the cost of that effort puts an initial price on the next block. It is not a "speculative" value, it's real, based on the level of prevailing competition in effect at the point of mining the block.

Perhaps something is valuable just because enough people believe it's valuable...

A masternode reward coin is obtained at zero effort and zero cost. I can then theoretically pass that on to another holder for free without incurring a loss, and that user can and so on.

Isn't it far more likely a masternode owner sells their reward for the cost at which they got their other coins? Or perhaps they'd try to sell their stash at a roughly 6% discount (assuming they collected rewards for a year) to get out without a loss.

It's not theory, but miners actually do sell at a loss just to keep going even in a bear market.


Now, let's try to measure 'competitiveness' by taking snapshots of the marketcap from the beginning of the year until now

That is not a measure of competitiveness. By that measure you could demonstrate that a coin ranked at 200 position is "more competitive" than Bitcoin or Ethereum. The point to address is Dash's valuation against competing mined assets that do not have split reward ratios.

There's a very simple reason we're less competitive than them: we have to collect far more fiat from markets than they do, proportionally for each block mined. We need to collect the mining cost PLUS whatever proportion of the masternode reward is sold. As the masternode network gets larger, that overhead gets larger. Our competitors only have to collect the mining cost.

Wait, what? So you pasting the coinmarketcap rankings showing DASH at the bottom of about 7 or 8 other POW coins to demonstrate that DASH was not as competitive is now not a measure of competitiveness? I was trying to use your criteria... if that's not correct please present something that actually demonstrates that DASH is not as competitive as these other POW coins.  'Because masternode rewards', while possibly is a cause for lack of competitiveness, it certainly doesn't demonstrate this.

So, none of the ideas I suggested (trustless shared masternodes/increased collateral or interest paid by masternodes) help address the store of value problem you see?
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August 15, 2020, 04:54:41 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2020, 06:26:05 PM by toknormal


Wait, what? So you pasting the coinmarketcap rankings showing DASH at the bottom of about 7 or 8 other POW coins to demonstrate that DASH was not as competitive is now not a measure of competitiveness? I was trying to use your criteria...

I don't think that's very fair. You're taking a snapshot of growth over an arbitrary (and I stress arbitrary) 6 month period which is meaningless (because growth is not the same thing as market cap. One is a velocity, the other is a quantity).

The more appropriate comparison is taking the relative marketcaps. Those represent the relative values of the entire coin supply since birth, which for most of those coins is 4-5 years. The theory behind the split reward is that it should make Dash more valuable in relative terms (ie. have a larger marketcap than those competitors).

Instead it has made Dash LESS valuable.

We have to ask why the split reward has not worked in our favour and come up with some reasonable answer instead of doubling down on an already failed protocol policy. My answer is not that it isn't effective, but that it's been pushed way beyond the point of diminishing returns. i.e. masternodes are receiving more of the mining reward than investors, but the adverse impact on capital growth offsets this so the net effect is a "negative" reward long term since we have to pay for the reward with a capital loss.

Doesn't mean there won't be periods when, due to the pumping of the entire crypto market, that doesn't hold true, but I'm talking:

A: long term aggregate effect
B: store of value performance relative to 100% mined coins

"B" is clearly not working. The way to fix it is to restore the mining reward by a massive margin. It isn't as if we have much to lose. We're not even in the top 20 anymore and are struggling to even attain $100 per coin valuation. The ratio against bitcoin has collapsed completely. It's not even a third of the ATH from 2014 - Dash's year of birth. So maybe people should stop resting on their laurels, believing in "pumps will save us" economic theory and start putting 2+2 together to reverse the trend.
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August 15, 2020, 05:52:36 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2020, 06:13:54 PM by qwizzie
Merited by Midas111 (1)

Dash price having another attempt at breaking into the 0.009 range / $110+ ? Stay tuned ..


Source : https://cryptowat.ch/charts/HITBTC:DASH-BTC?period=1d


Source : https://cryptowat.ch/charts/COINBASE-PRO:DASH-USD?period=1d

Here is a Dash chart on a monthly time interval, to put things in perspective, long term  :


Source : tradingview

Long term, Dash still has a long way to go. I see this upward momentum easily stretch into 2021.
At this point i am just waiting for a MA cross on the monthly chart.
I believe that will be the time when the real fireworks starts for Dash.

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August 15, 2020, 08:06:40 PM


Wait, what? So you pasting the coinmarketcap rankings showing DASH at the bottom of about 7 or 8 other POW coins to demonstrate that DASH was not as competitive is now not a measure of competitiveness? I was trying to use your criteria...

I don't think that's very fair. You're taking a snapshot of growth over an arbitrary (and I stress arbitrary) 6 month period which is meaningless (because growth is not the same thing as market cap. One is a velocity, the other is a quantity).

The more appropriate comparison is taking the relative marketcaps. Those represent the relative values of the entire coin supply since birth, which for most of those coins is 4-5 years. The theory behind the split reward is that it should make Dash more valuable in relative terms (ie. have a larger marketcap than those competitors).


Your snapshot is just as arbitrary. Why today? Why not tomorrow?

So, when DASH passes XMR's marketcap will you still insist that DASH is less competitive than XMR?
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August 15, 2020, 08:41:27 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2020, 10:14:19 PM by toknormal


So, when DASH passes XMR's marketcap will you still insist that DASH is less competitive than XMR?

Not if it's a flash in the pan. Chainlink is this years "Dash 2017" so I wouldn't hold my breath for one of those. We've had 6 years of track record to measure. I think that's a fair amount of time to judge whether diluting the proportion of the supply that's competitively mined favourably impacts our store of value performance compared to similar generation coins.

It clearly doesn't.

So why dilute it even more ?

As long as there isn't broad parity of margin between mining and masternode hosting, the market will simply trash that (empty) margin until there is, taking the capital value of the whole chain with it. That's how you know where to optimally set the masternode margin. If the nodes have a lot to do such that they require to be heavily funded - sure set the reward ratio appropriately. If they don't then set it at parity with mining (or some notional approximation) so we're not having to draw fiat from markets that doesn't go directly into the coin value. That excess is pure overhead that acts to decapitalise Dash as an asset relative to our fully mined competitors. This is exactly what we've seen happening during Dash's lifetime. The massive pump we had wasn't sustainable and we sailed straight back to a nearer equilibrium position after it.

I don't really subscribe to the "...but all other coins lost value too" argument either. I think that is a poor excuse against the background of the split reward ratio being held up as the "answer" to Dash's store of value problems IMO.

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August 15, 2020, 10:13:29 PM


So, when DASH passes XMR's marketcap will you still insist that DASH is less competitive than XMR?

Not if it's a flash in the pan. Chainlink is this years "Dash 2017" so I wouldn't hold my breath for one of those. We've had 6 years of track record to measure. I think that's a fair amount of time to judge whether diluting the proportion of the supply that's competitively mined favourably impacts our store of value performance compared to similar generation coins.

It clearly doesn't.

So why dilute it even more ?

As long as there isn't broad parity of margin between mining and masternode hosting, the market will simply trash that margin until there is. That's how you know how to optimally set the masternode margin. If the nodes have a lot to do such that they require to be heavily funded - sure set the reward ratio appropriately. If they don't then set it equally appropriately so we're not having to draw fiat from markets that doesn't go directly into the coin value (by paying for the mining cost). That excess is pure overhead that acts to decapitalise Dash as an asset relative to our fully mined competitors. This is exactly what we've seen happening during Dash's lifetime. The massive pump we had wasn't sustainable and we sailed straight back to a nearer equilibrium position after it.

And please don't give me "...but all other coins did too". That is an extremely poor excuse against the background of the split reward ratio being held up as the "answer" to Dash's store of value problems.


I don't think DASH has any store of value problems and I never stated that it did...

I've made clear that my position on the reward redistribution is that it is negligible.

Chainlink is in a bull market, has no resistances to break thru and will likely at least 10x from where it is in the next year if it does not somehow collapse on some major bad news.

BTC and ETH are in bull markets, but are still fighting thru resistances to break their previous ATH's. Once they do their prices will explode. This could happen end of this year.

DASH is still in a technical bear market both against BTC and the USD. However, DASH is holding support above the 100 day MA against BTC and might have the 50 day cross above the 100 day by the end of the month. I would not expect DASH to enter a bull market against BTC until October or November this year.

Against USD, DASH may enter a technical bull market as early as this week, Aug 19th or 20th... this could accelerate DASH's recovery against BTC.

XMR is ahead of DASH in recovery, it's already in a bull market vs USD for some time now and arguably just entered a bull market vs BTC over the last 24 hours...

LTC is only slightly ahead of DASH but more or less in a similar position as far as recovery is concerned.

All that said, BTC is trying to break resistance at $12K again and if it succeeds this time could easily jump to $14K, and slightly delay or temporarily reverse altcoin's recovery vs BTC...

That's why it's arbitrary to only do your comparison for just today. Each crypto is in a different part of its own market cycle.
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August 15, 2020, 10:22:26 PM


That's why it's arbitrary to only do your comparison for just today. Each crypto is in a different part of its own market cycle.

You make a great job of defending against a line of argument I'm not making.

How does any of that support the idea that a REDUCTION in the proportion of mined supply is going to improve our store of value (Given that we already have only half of what other coins do) ?

I really don't agree with your reasoning which I think is simply technical hand waving over cycles. There's no "cycle" by which our "real" ranking is somehow arguably higher than what our current markcetcap says it is.
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August 15, 2020, 11:05:23 PM


That's why it's arbitrary to only do your comparison for just today. Each crypto is in a different part of its own market cycle.

You make a great job of defending against a line of argument I'm not making.

How does any of that support the idea that a REDUCTION in the proportion of mined supply is going to improve our store of value (Given that we already have only half of what other coins do) ?

I really don't agree with your reasoning which I think is simply technical hand waving over cycles. There's no "cycle" by which our "real" ranking is somehow arguably higher than what our current markcetcap says it is.

Well, you said DASH is less competitive than some of the other POW coins because its marketcap is less than theirs and because DASH has too high masternode rewards. This connection you made of course is your opinion as there's nothing factual you've presented to prove it's not something else instead.

I said doing a market comparison only for today is arbitrary because DASH is at a different point in its market cycle than these other coins. And in fact, even so, YTD, DASH is very competitive.

I never stated that a reduction in the proportion of mined supply will improve DASH's store of value. I said the change is negligible and I don't think it will improve or hurt DASH's store of value.

I have no issue with your opinion on masternode rewards being too high. My issue is you present your opinion as fact mostly because you say so.

I also never said that DASH's marketcap should be higher than what it actually is, nor that our "real" ranking based on marketcap is somehow higher. I said that it will be higher and will recover faster and pass other POW coins like XMR in due time (2021 almost for sure)

Maybe I'm wrong... you can call me out then I guess. But even then you still only have assumptions as to why DASH might not be as competitive (even though it is so far for 2020)
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August 15, 2020, 11:40:55 PM


I never stated that a reduction in the proportion of mined supply will improve DASH's store of value.

Well that's good then, because it won't !   Wink

(It is however the basis of the protocol revision being made to improve "store of value").

Well, you said DASH is less competitive than some of the other POW coins because its marketcap is less than theirs and because DASH has too high masternode rewards. This connection you made of course is your opinion as there's nothing factual you've presented to prove it's not something else instead.

Well it's like this: If your protocol dictates that you require to draw up to twice as much fiat from markets to keep your coin alive compared to competitors then maybe that explains why it only has a quarter to half the value that they do. So you're right it's only my opinion, but only in the same sense that if I look out the window and see a wet road, I assume it's been raining = "only my opinion" but the leading logical candidate all the same.

Trading Cycles do not remotely account for this. They operate in channels and you're being generous in even including us in the same channel as them as we long since dropped out of it.
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August 15, 2020, 11:57:31 PM

So this is where it all started on January 18th 2014. Look how far Dash has progressed and made a position in this congested and saturated market.




Latest Client: Dash v0.15 Release - Download here.

Dash is an open source peer-to-peer cryptocurrency with a strong focus on the payments industry. Dash offers a form of money that is anonymous, portable, inexpensive and fast. It can be spent securely both online and in person with only minimal transaction fees. Based on the Bitcoin project, Dash aims to be the most user-friendly and scalable payments system in the world. In addition to Bitcoin's feature set, Dash currently also includes a second-layer network of masternodes to facilitate instant transactions (InstantSend), private transactions (PrivateSend) and governance functions to create a self-governing and self-funding network capable of paying individuals and businesses for work that adds value to Dash. This decentralized governance and budgeting system makes it one of the first ever successful decentralized autonomous organizations (DAO).

How to update to 0.15: https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/masternodes/dip3-upgrade.html
Downloads: https://www.dash.org/wallets/


Quick Dash Facts:

- Dash is a next generation cryptographic currency
- Dash supports instant transactions and privacy using decentralized technology
- 2 MB blocks + very low fees
- Dash has no premine and was launched fairly and transparently
- Total coins will most likely be near 18.9 million (https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html#emission-rate)
- Coins will cease to be generated near the year 2300
- Dash uses the X11 algorithm for mining
 
Dash Introduction Videos:

Dash is Digital Cash?




Dash School




Dash 101




Dash Features:

Masternode Network
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/masternodes/understanding.html

PrivateSend
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html#privatesend

InstandSend
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html#instantsend

Multi-Phased Spork
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html#sporks

Budget System (Funding/ Voting /DGBB)
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/governance/index.html

Evolution
https://www.dash.org/evolution/

Learn More About Dash


Miscellaneous:

Whitepaper
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/about.html#whitepaper

Downloads: Stable release binaries, previous releases and source code:
https://www.dash.org/wallets/

Mining:
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/mining/index.html

Exchanges:
https://www.dash.org/exchanges/
Mining Pools:
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/mining/index.html#mining-pools

Dash Merchant Directory:
https://www.dash.org/merchants/

Other tools
Paper Wallet: https://paper.dash.org
Blockchain Explorer1: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash
Blockchain Explorer 2: https://insight.dash.org
Masternode Status: https://dashninja.pl/masternodes.html
Difficulty Chart: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#@diff

List of Known Scams:
https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/safety.html#scams


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August 16, 2020, 12:32:24 AM


That's why it's arbitrary to only do your comparison for just today. Each crypto is in a different part of its own market cycle.

You make a great job of defending against a line of argument I'm not making.

How does any of that support the idea that a REDUCTION in the proportion of mined supply is going to improve our store of value (Given that we already have only half of what other coins do) ?

I really don't agree with your reasoning which I think is simply technical hand waving over cycles. There's no "cycle" by which our "real" ranking is somehow arguably higher than what our current markcetcap says it is.

Well, you said DASH is less competitive than some of the other POW coins because its marketcap is less than theirs and because DASH has too high masternode rewards. This connection you made of course is your opinion as there's nothing factual you've presented to prove it's not something else instead.

I said doing a market comparison only for today is arbitrary because DASH is at a different point in its market cycle than these other coins. And in fact, even so, YTD, DASH is very competitive.

I never stated that a reduction in the proportion of mined supply will improve DASH's store of value. I said the change is negligible and I don't think it will improve or hurt DASH's store of value.

I have no issue with your opinion on masternode rewards being too high. My issue is you present your opinion as fact mostly because you say so.

I also never said that DASH's marketcap should be higher than what it actually is, nor that our "real" ranking based on marketcap is somehow higher. I said that it will be higher and will recover faster and pass other POW coins like XMR in due time (2021 almost for sure)

Maybe I'm wrong... you can call me out then I guess. But even then you still only have assumptions as to why DASH might not be as competitive (even though it is so far for 2020)


I also think that 45% is way too much reward for masternodes and it made some unwanted concentracion of power. You said in one of yours previous posts,how miners during bear market even sell at lose.Yes,but 99% of them can do it for a very,very short period of time.If you take a look at DASH mining profitability you can clearly see that DASH miners is in deep loss for a long period of time(even with cheap electricity of $0.05/kWh),but it seems that it does not effect miners too much or hash power.Even with price of electricity of $0.03 DASH miners will be at big loss.

Are these miners crazy and mining DASH at loss for a such long time? I dont think so.Only way to keep mining of DASH profitable during prolonged bear market is combination of very cheap electricity and possesion of masternodes in percentage which is at least equal miners percentage in hashrate.Miners can held some portion of mined coins for some time during bull market and sell them later,but during bear market they dont take chances and sell them almost at once.So in DASH case ,these miners are no regular miners at all,but big whale speculators which thanks to 45% free reward for masternodes pushed price down,deep in unprofitable zone for regular miners,removing them from market to create artificially low price for a long time,getting in possesion of extremely cheap coins from desperate investors forced to sell coins to just get away from huge losses.

Such extreme market squeeze(Dash/BTC pair fell to value very close to ATL of 0.0055 BTC for 1 DASH,which as i know not at one big and medium size coin didnt reach)  is possible because present of excessive reward for masternodes.Without it ,big holders-whales will be forced to keep price enough profitable for majority of regular miners just to keep network safe.That made this unhealthy combination of speculator&miner which is holding DASH to the ground through combination of combined market/miner power.

From about May till today we saw how number of masternodes increased for about 400 - so 400.000 DASH needed for it, should be removed from market and we should see quite price rise (whole sum of sell orders on few main exchanges is about 25.000 coins).That didnt happen ,because big speculator/miners used mined coins to get additional masternodes and make theirs grip on coin network even stronger.


Technically,not just Dash,but all crypto coins,except stablecoins cant be considered as a store of value due to excessive volatility.Yes,you are right ,BTC and ETH are only coins which entered bull market. ZEC is very close,XMR also,DASH and LTC not so close.From mine experience altcons can be considered in bull phase before on 2W  chart coin/BTC pair,  EMA-7 and EMA-30 make confirmed cross above. Coin/USD pair 2W cross cant be considered reliable,but can be precursor of major push when 2W coin/BTC pair are closing crossing too.

For DASH/USD pair, 2W crossing is very close after 2 failed attempt in previous months.In next 2,max. 4 weeks, it will be crossed,possible with enough momentum to make DASH/BTC 2W cross too.We will see.

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August 16, 2020, 01:54:14 AM


Well it's like this: If your protocol dictates that you require to draw up to twice as much fiat from markets to keep your coin alive compared to competitors then maybe that explains why it only has a quarter to half the value that they do. So you're right it's only my opinion, but only in the same sense that if I look out the window and see a wet road, I assume it's been raining = "only my opinion" but the leading logical candidate all the same.

Trading Cycles do not remotely account for this. They operate in channels and you're being generous in even including us in the same channel as them as we long since dropped out of it.

Well, what can I say? You keep repeating the same old tired circular logic. Let me attempt to sum up your doctrine: "DASH is not competitive because of masternode rewards and because of masternode rewards DASH is not competitive."

Ok then, I'm bored of this. I'll remind you when DASH's marketcap is double that of XMR's. I also fully expect DASH to easily hit 0.03 BTC within the next year and if it can break past that will spike up to unstable values of 0.07 BTC and above.

I also think that 45% is way too much reward for masternodes and it made some unwanted concentracion of power. You said in one of yours previous posts,how miners during bear market even sell at lose.Yes,but 99% of them can do it for a very,very short period of time.If you take a look at DASH mining profitability you can clearly see that DASH miners is in deep loss for a long period of time(even with cheap electricity of $0.05/kWh),but it seems that it does not effect miners too much or hash power.Even with price of electricity of $0.03 DASH miners will be at big loss.

Are these miners crazy and mining DASH at loss for a such long time? I dont think so.Only way to keep mining of DASH profitable during prolonged bear market is combination of very cheap electricity and possesion of masternodes in percentage which is at least equal miners percentage in hashrate.Miners can held some portion of mined coins for some time during bull market and sell them later,but during bear market they dont take chances and sell them almost at once.So in DASH case ,these miners are no regular miners at all,but big whale speculators which thanks to 45% free reward for masternodes pushed price down,deep in unprofitable zone for regular miners,removing them from market to create artificially low price for a long time,getting in possesion of extremely cheap coins from desperate investors forced to sell coins to just get away from huge losses.

Such extreme market squeeze(Dash/BTC pair fell to value very close to ATL of 0.0055 BTC for 1 DASH,which as i know not at one big and medium size coin didnt reach)  is possible because present of excessive reward for masternodes.Without it ,big holders-whales will be forced to keep price enough profitable for majority of regular miners just to keep network safe.That made this unhealthy combination of speculator&miner which is holding DASH to the ground through combination of combined market/miner power.

Were LTC miners profitable? How about XMR miners? I don't think so either... DASH went thru exactly one true bull market so far. It is quite common for an asset to retrace all the way back to its starting point before starting the next cycle. If I look at XMR's chart it's not too dissimilar... it took longer in the beginning for people to pick up on this coin but basically 0.005 BTC was its starting point before the bull market and it retraced all the way back before starting its next cycle. LTC has 2 bull markets behind it, and reached a lower high the second time but perhaps the good news for it is that it reached a higher low this last bear market. Against the USD I predict all 3 coins will almost certainly reach ATH's in the coming year or so. These speculative cycles will continue to be extreme until something closer to mass adoption is achieved or a coin gradually dies and fades away.

Regarding the centralization... I think DASH needs to have trustless shared masternodes and/or savings accounts for regular DASH holders to earn (and vote) too. Not only would this help with decentralization, it would likely create a new wave of interest for DASH.

From about May till today we saw how number of masternodes increased for about 400 - so 400.000 DASH needed for it, should be removed from market and we should see quite price rise (whole sum of sell orders on few main exchanges is about 25.000 coins).That didnt happen ,because big speculator/miners used mined coins to get additional masternodes and make theirs grip on coin network even stronger.

Is this just conjecture on your part or do you have hard evidence that DASH miners are setting up masternodes? Perhaps it didn't happen as you expected because exchanges like Binance are setting up masternodes with their users' coins.

Technically,not just Dash,but all crypto coins,except stablecoins cant be considered as a store of value due to excessive volatility.Yes,you are right ,BTC and ETH are only coins which entered bull market. ZEC is very close,XMR also,DASH and LTC not so close.From mine experience altcons can be considered in bull phase before on 2W  chart coin/BTC pair,  EMA-7 and EMA-30 make confirmed cross above. Coin/USD pair 2W cross cant be considered reliable,but can be precursor of major push when 2W coin/BTC pair are closing crossing too.

For DASH/USD pair, 2W crossing is very close after 2 failed attempt in previous months.In next 2,max. 4 weeks, it will be crossed,possible with enough momentum to make DASH/BTC 2W cross too.We will see.


Short term, crypto is not a good store of value, sure. But holders of DASH, XMR, LTC since 2014-2016 are all doing much better than if they stayed in USD. I would argue stablecoins might be the worst store of value long term but good to ride out a crypto bear market. Fiat currencies are meant to be spent as soon as possible because they consistently lose value (in fact are designed to lose value). Saving cash under your mattress is one of the worst ways to save money since at least 1970.

As long as BTC can continue its bullish trend, alts will increasingly recover. Once BTC hits it's previous ATH and hovers and stalls around there for awhile, the good alts will within months reach their own previous ATH's (USD-wise anyway). Then it will be interesting to see how high this goes. Could be a mega-bullrun if mass adoption is on the way or could be another bubble which pops with 70-90+% pullback again.
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August 16, 2020, 02:11:18 AM


I'll remind you when DASH's marketcap is double that of XMR's. I also fully expect DASH to easily hit 0.03 BTC within the next year and if it can break past that will spike up to unstable values of 0.07 BTC and above.

I wouldn't object to that at all. The reward ratio could be disastrously wrong and we could still spike up in spite of it. The Russian's used to put cast iron into Space and I'm sure the market could lift 5000 nodes, passively leaching millions of dollars of value per week out of the ecosystem.

The question is, for how long ?
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August 16, 2020, 07:14:03 AM
Last edit: August 16, 2020, 08:10:49 AM by qwizzie

Lets be clear here, if Dash continues performing as it has been performing since January 2020 through long term upward momentum and at some point passes Monero in marketcap
(or passes any other PoW project that Dash according toknormal has been underperforming to), then toknormal's whole market understanding and how Dash fits in there,
will have proven to be completely and totally wrong. And all his posts about it (which were nothing more then unproven assumptions anyways), will have been incorrect from the start.  

There is no dodging that, no blaming it on some accidental spike.
The question is, will he acknowledge that when that happens ?

  

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August 16, 2020, 07:42:47 AM
Last edit: August 16, 2020, 08:04:02 AM by qwizzie

So this is where it all started on January 18th 2014. Look how far Dash has progressed and made a position in this congested and saturated market.

Yep. I still remember going to Dash first (budget funded) conference in The Netherlands (Amsterdam) early 2015.
It was a Bitcoin-organised weekly meet-up that would also let Altcoin projects give a presentation there, which is what Dash (Evan Duffield and some other team members) was doing there.
I remember the Bitcoin organizer being so impressed with Dash growth and marketcap of 14 million USD at the time, that he specifically mentioned it in his Dash introduction.

Now Dash has a marketcap of 919 million USD and made all these technical advancements, integrations, expansions and partnerships. Dash userbase has also grown considerably since 2015.
It is almost surreal if you think about it, how fast things can move in this crypto space.

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August 16, 2020, 10:38:26 AM
Last edit: August 16, 2020, 04:19:26 PM by toknormal

Lets be clear here, if Dash continues performing as it has been performing since January 2020 through long term upward momentum and at some point passes Monero in marketcap
(or passes any other PoW project that Dash according toknormal has been underperforming to), then toknormal's whole market understanding and how Dash fits in there,
will have proven to be completely and totally wrong

That's very constructive of you.

How about simply addressing the material of the issue at hand. For example you could have said:

"...but Tok, your point about the "cost" of MN reward being additional to mining cost is flawed because the superblock and blocks containing MN reward are automatically generated and their cost is not borne by miners" (Because I'm not actually sure if they are or not and I could have been wrong about the granular mechanism by which the reward split is invoked which would at least mitigate the adverse impact that MN rewards have on our marketcap) And that could have lead to an illuminating exchange about the granular economics of the protocol

or...

"...but Tok, you know that we're still in the speculative "pricing in" phase. When Dash platform arrives there will be service demand that leads to the need for costly service provision. This will bring MN and mining margins into parity and create demand for utility at the same time. We are seeing this now being priced in"...which would have lead to an illuminating discussion about the type, quantity and value of services that "platform" could potentially attract

or...

"...but Tok, your theory about supernormal profits is misplaced. It applies to competing businesses in a common commercial sector and cannot be similarly applied to mining margin vs masternode margin"...in which case an instructive debate about whether MN and miner economic priorities interact in a complimentary or adverse way to support the capital value of the coin

or...

"...but Tok, that's all very well, but none of us give a sh* about optimally tuning the fundamental mechanics of this coin's economics, nor understanding it. We just want the thing to pump to kingdom come so we can get out of here and retire, so stfu"

But instead it's down to a question of whether I'm "wrong or right". Well there's nothing to be wrong or right about - the numbers are there staring us in the face. Likeways the results of 6 years of trading. I personally like to understand the mechanics of these things even if others can't be bothered and prefer to just sit on their hides with their thumbs in their mouths while waiting for a pump to turn up & save their *sses.

There's likely to be a Miner/MN ratio "sweet spot" and the danger of not identifying it categorically is that anywhere outside it will simply stall the growth of the coin entirely (relative to competing 100% mined offerings). I gave my opinion on where I think that "sweet spot" is in the previous post: margin parity. Ryan has given his based on optimising masternode incentives. My problem with that approach is that he's using the wrong units to identify key parameters like supply to markets & ROI since they don't take into account capital gains/losses. That and the fact it has not demonstrated success in 5 years of trading so we're too far over to the right IMO and now we're moving even further to the right that places us potentially in chronic negative growth territory (relative to competing 100% mined assets).

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