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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9669465 times)
qwizzie
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October 23, 2020, 04:55:10 PM
Last edit: October 23, 2020, 09:46:17 PM by qwizzie


You should have left Dash ages ago. You should have left this Dash ANN ages ago. You should have sold your masternode(s) ages ago.
Yet you did not. Your thoughts and opinions about Dash, seem to directly clash with your actions (to stay invested in Dash and keep your masternode(s) running).

From an investor point of view that looks very strange. Suspiciously strange.

There's nothing strange about it. I invested in a proof of work coin that inherited bitcoin's protocol and target market, but more versatile than bitcoin at the point of use.

The arguments I've been promoting on here are far more consistent with that principle than yours have been. There's therefore a reason to stay invested because this coin has a governance mechanism and I believe that the community will eventually have to face the fact that the appraisal made last year regarding the economics of the protocol was faulty and that the conclusion drawn exactly the opposite of the correct one. i.e. it's the masternode margins we don't need and the hashrate we DO need. (Or at least its application to a majority of the coin supply needs to be restored).

That is not what you stated earlier, let me quote what you said earlier :  
Quote
insanity of firewalling half the supply off from that hashrate and giving it away for free is becoming apparent to all.
With half of the supply off i assume you mean our current blockreward allocation 50% masternodes / 50% miners (or to be precise the 45% / 45% / 10%), not the yet to be activated block reward reallocation change that leads to 60% / 40% (or to be precise 54% / 36% / 10%).

If you are indeed referring to the 50% / 50% blockreward allocation, then i am not sure why you even started with Dash. Why stay so long with a coin that you think is 'insanely firewalling half the supply off from the hashrate and give it away from free' for 6 years already ? While that coin is showing no signs of taking an interest in your point of view ? Why not simply switch 6 years ago to a '100% mining competitive' coin with governance, if the whole thing bothered you so much ? Why setup your own masternode(s) for all those years and not participate in the governance system these last few years, even though you claim to be invested because of that governance mechanism ? Is it then just for collecting the masternode rewards these days ? Why setup masternodes for yourself in the first place, when you claim masternodes cause the 'insanity of firewalling half the supply off from that hashrate and giving it away for free' ?

So many questions and so little answers.


 



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October 23, 2020, 05:10:35 PM
Last edit: October 23, 2020, 06:59:37 PM by toknormal


If you are indeed referring to the 50% / 50% blockreward allocation, then i am not sure why you even started with Dash.

Because the principle is very powerful and there is a clear market for this - store of value coin that has a trustless on-chain service protocol decoupled from the mining one.

A corrosive reward ratio can break it though. That's the problem I see - like drowning a slice of bread in too much butter - the sandwich will become valueless to most. It's not difficult to address which is why I think it's worth arguing for.
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October 23, 2020, 09:31:22 PM

Ok, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. Do you at least concede that? Are you presenting fact or theory?

Here's something to think about...

1) The block reward is not given out until a block is mined.
2) No miners, no block reward.
3) The block reward currently is roughly 2.88 DASH.
4) The miner is able to stay in business even though they only receive roughly 1.44 DASH per block

Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

After all if the miner is profitable enough to stay in business by selling 1.44 DASH, they could easily sell 2.88 DASH at 50% off and still be just as well off.

So, maybe this 50/50 split we currently have puts upward pressure on the price? And maybe that more than offsets the price that masternodes sell at since they don't sell it for $0...



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October 23, 2020, 10:40:46 PM

Ok, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. Do you at least concede that? Are you presenting fact or theory?

Here's something to think about...

1) The block reward is not given out until a block is mined.
2) No miners, no block reward.
3) The block reward currently is roughly 2.88 DASH.
4) The miner is able to stay in business even though they only receive roughly 1.44 DASH per block

Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

After all if the miner is profitable enough to stay in business by selling 1.44 DASH, they could easily sell 2.88 DASH at 50% off and still be just as well off.

So, maybe this 50/50 split we currently have puts upward pressure on the price? And maybe that more than offsets the price that masternodes sell at since they don't sell it for $0...






The mining difficulty would adjust higher, making the scarcity /store of value attribute much stronger.

Consider that in 100% proof of work coins they already have 100% of the reward. This idea is already tested and in action in real crypto market
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October 23, 2020, 10:53:07 PM
Last edit: October 23, 2020, 11:19:31 PM by qwizzie

Ok, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. Do you at least concede that? Are you presenting fact or theory?

Here's something to think about...

1) The block reward is not given out until a block is mined.
2) No miners, no block reward.
3) The block reward currently is roughly 2.88 DASH.
4) The miner is able to stay in business even though they only receive roughly 1.44 DASH per block

Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

After all if the miner is profitable enough to stay in business by selling 1.44 DASH, they could easily sell 2.88 DASH at 50% off and still be just as well off.

So, maybe this 50/50 split we currently have puts upward pressure on the price? And maybe that more than offsets the price that masternodes sell at since they don't sell it for $0...






The mining difficulty would adjust higher, making the scarcity /store of value attribute much stronger.

Consider that in 100% proof of work coins they already have 100% of the reward. This idea is already tested and in action in real crypto market

So why is it not working for Bitcoin Cash and Zcash then ? They have 100% proof of work with 100% of the reward and have the exact same negative price performance as Dash.


Dash              -95,6% Price Down from ATH
Bitcoin Cash    -93,8% Price Down from ATH
Zcash             -93,5% Price Down from ATH
  
Source : messari.io

What can we conclude from that ?

Also i don't see how higher mining difficulty increase scarcity. With Dash the difficulty gets adjusted after each block thanks to Dash Dark Gravity Wave, which means the supply generation stays the same. There is no increased scarcity or increased store of value from an increase in mining difficulty.

https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html

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October 23, 2020, 11:04:09 PM
Last edit: October 24, 2020, 09:39:50 AM by toknormal


Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

First of all, it's a general given in commerce that if you give a market twice the goods for the same price, you'll instantly become more competitive.

1. Support the Price in the Primary Market

So it isn't a question of hashrate per se, it's about increasing the amount of competition there is for Dash's primary supply (the new mined supply). We have a massive reserve available there to attract back demand because we're currently at a 50% deficit over our mined neighbours so ANY restoration of mining reward between that and 100% will do it. I realise that masternode holders want holiday cruises, but f*k'm. They'll get their margins restored via capital gain anyway so lets put them to good use in arresting the decapitalisation of the chain.

As an example of how low margins can generate huge businesses, look at those mining operations in Iceland. They turnover millions. More than half of all of Iceland's electricity generating capacity goes into bitcoin mining , yet they operate on wafer thin margins. The capital value of bitcoin grows. Meanwhile masternodes operate on huge margins and their capital value is paltry and shrinking. That is because those margins are not being re-invested in raising the mining difficulty as they are with our competitors. They are supposed to be invested in service capacity but that cost is non-existent by comparison so meanwhile it needs to be going into applying scarcity to the half of our supply that's currently a free giveaway.

Ironically, they're also not working to attract new demand for masternodes either. Why is that ? Because with such a large collateral investment, capital gain or loss makes far more difference to ROI than the reward ratio. If the reward ratio isn't set right and acts to leech the capital value of the chain instead of nourish it, then masternodes are a loss maker at any protocol reward since the external market calculates ROI in dollars, not Dash.

2. Stop Masking that Value off from the Secondary Market

Now lets turn to the exchange of existing coins between one holder and the next (the so called "secondary market"). This is where the issue of capital flows comes in that I mentioned in an earlier post. The problem here is that if any holder in the chain of exchange is able to acquire a coin at zero cost then the store of value archetype is broken.

So lets say you mine 100 bars of gold out of the ground and it costs you $1000 to mine each one. You sell 50 of them for $1000 and you give the other 50 away for nothing. The cost of mining (scarcity value) of the 50 free bars then doesn't get transmitted through to the market because any loss that would have been incurred from selling below mining cost has already been taken for them. From an accounting perspective, they are holding a capital asset but also a huge capital gain, so it's in their interest to realise that gain as fast as possible because there will be competition for liquidity from others that are in the same position since 100% gains are rare and realised ones are even rarer. The asset will not hold its value because everyone got it for free and this acts as a corrosive force to the overall value of the chain.

Miners, however are not in the same boat. They incur a financial penalty for selling below cost which in their case is non-zero. They have to take the loss themselves. They're also always having to invest hashrate in the chain to get anything out of it. That hashrate isn't "wasted", because it increases the scarcity of the coin in proportion to demand. But it doesn't work if somewhere else coins are being released with a zero cost base. You then have a leaky boat in terms of capital value from the chain.

The cherry on top is that miner's low profit margin exposes them to negligible statutory selling pressure from tax authorities, unlike their masternode counterparts who instantly incurr a liability of between 30% to 70% of their reward as soon as they receive it (depending on what jurisdiction theyr'e in). This constitutes yet another source of massive and chronic sell pressure.

Conclusion: Large masternode margins are disastrous for business:

 • they give traders a reason to constantly go short because they know they're a capital bleeder
 • they make the primary supply depressingly uncompetitive compared with our neighbours
 • they don't work anyway (because the market simply adjusts the dollar reward ratio as it sees fit)
 • they give miners a reason to run masternodes to subsidise their mining costs, which deprives the primary supply of mining competition and instead crashes order books with their "free rewards"
 
..and worst of all...

 • they are bad for masternodes, since they have the most to lose from capital losses being the biggest capital holders
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October 23, 2020, 11:09:39 PM

Ok, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. Do you at least concede that? Are you presenting fact or theory?

Here's something to think about...

1) The block reward is not given out until a block is mined.
2) No miners, no block reward.
3) The block reward currently is roughly 2.88 DASH.
4) The miner is able to stay in business even though they only receive roughly 1.44 DASH per block

Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

After all if the miner is profitable enough to stay in business by selling 1.44 DASH, they could easily sell 2.88 DASH at 50% off and still be just as well off.

So, maybe this 50/50 split we currently have puts upward pressure on the price? And maybe that more than offsets the price that masternodes sell at since they don't sell it for $0...






The mining difficulty would adjust higher, making the scarcity /store of value attribute much stronger.

Consider that in 100% proof of work coins they already have 100% of the reward. This idea is already tested and in action in real crypto market

Hmm... ok, so certainly there would be new upwards pressure to increase the hashrate because now there is extra profit to make but at the same time miners would cash in as quick as they could. And I suppose instead of the price being cut in half, it would meet somewhere in the middle, which is 25% lower than the current price.

Still sounds like a bad idea to me.

Not to mention, 0% rewards to masternodes means 0 masternodes means Dash ceases to be Dash. Remind me again why you wouldn't just switch to LTC or BCH now?
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October 23, 2020, 11:31:52 PM
Last edit: October 23, 2020, 11:44:33 PM by toknormal


...but at the same time miners would cash in as quick as they could...Still sounds like a bad idea to me.

The problem is that this argument has been lost.

You are currently watching the coin that throttles the supply to miners more than any other - by 50% compared to its competitors - sink to the bottom of the pile in valuation.

Not only that, on utility (which that 50% mining deficit is supposed to be paying for) we are now out-used by 500% by the most utility-deficient coin in the list.

The reasons are explained above - that order book dynamics have very little to do with the valuation of the chain. Coins transferred out in an order book can transfer an equivalent value back to the chain or it can be asymmetric (as in the sale of masternode rewards) where no value is delivered back to the chain.

It's the net loss or gain of aggregate capital value from the network that matters.
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October 23, 2020, 11:32:42 PM


..and worst of all...

 • they are bad for masternodes, since they have the most to lose form capital losses being the biggest capital holders

You are a masternode operator yourself, enabling the system you so very publicly attack on this forum. I am starting to wonder if you are not simpy trying to prevent the increase of masternodes, so it does not extend the time interval (making the period between masternode payments longer).

That is the only reason why i can see you stay at a project this long (6 years), run masternodes, and still attack the very heart of this project (incentivized masternodes). It would explain why you post all this negative crap about masternodes, but stay invested in Dash.

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October 23, 2020, 11:34:31 PM


You are a masternode operator yourself, enabling the system you so very publicly attack on this forum.

I didn't "publicly attack" the system.

I argued that the reward ratio was set in the wrong direction for optimal capital valuation of the chain. I also said that masternodes would gain from this since the capital value of their holdings makes generally more difference to their asset valuation than the reward margin measured in Dash.
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October 23, 2020, 11:47:18 PM
Last edit: October 24, 2020, 05:35:49 AM by qwizzie


You are a masternode operator yourself, enabling the system you so very publicly attack on this forum.

I didn't "publicly attack" the system.

I argued that the reward ratio was set in the wrong direction for optimal capital valuation of the chain. I also said that masternodes would gain from this since the capital value of their holdings makes generally more difference to their asset valuation than the reward margin measured in Dash.


I seem to recall a certain someone wanting to fork Dash, while the blockreward reallocation discussion was still ongoing.
I call that a public attack on Dash system. I also recall some pretty strong personal opinions from that certain someone,
predicting all kinds of outragious doomsday scenerio's day in day out. I also see that as publicly attacking the system.

A system you are part of as masternode operator since pretty much the start. Something you failed to mention in all
those comments about 'free' coins and all the masternode negativity, until i confronted you with that after your 'lets fork Dash' post.

I realise that masternode holders want holiday cruises, but f*k'm.

Does that mean you will be f*k yourself, as you are a masternode holder also ?  Undecided

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
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October 24, 2020, 12:15:13 AM
Last edit: October 24, 2020, 01:07:50 AM by toknormal


I seeem to recall a certain someone wanting to fork Dash...I also recall some pretty strong personal opinions ..publicly attacking the system

Qwizzie, you're still living in 2014-land where marketcaps lived and died on bitcointalk hype and where an investor base was defined by tribal allegiances.

Things have moved on a bit. Markets are slightly more sophisticated and can work out what our capital flows are. If you tell them you can make a 90% margin from a finite capital asset without investing any of that profit back or generating any new economic activity, and despite that claim that your capital value will still accrue in multiples, the "negativity" you're seeing from me just now will look like worship by comparison to their reaction Wink

2+2 has to equal 4. Not "innovation", "liveliness" or "pump-is-comingness".
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October 24, 2020, 05:55:39 AM

Toknormal, you'd make a good politician. Ignore the question, and repeat your message at all cost.

It's hard to have a discussion where one side merely dismisses offhandedly anything and everything that goes against their position, only to repeat as "proof" the same thing over and over again.

Despite the apparent tumble in CMC rankings, DASH is still well positioned for the upcoming bull market. Be sure to take profit this time. You will be much happier.
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October 24, 2020, 09:11:53 AM

v0.16 Migration Report — Week 3
Link : https://blog.dash.org/v0-16-migration-report-week-3-6769e32166d0

Source : https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/jgvmy6/dash_core_v016_migration_report_week_3/

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October 24, 2020, 10:23:27 AM
Last edit: October 24, 2020, 11:18:25 AM by qwizzie

Looks like we get another topic of discussion soon :

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/mno-incentives.50836/#post-223867
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/jgvph2/mno_incentives/

This will be a discussion on what to do with the leftover dash of the Dash Treasury / Budget.


Source : https://app.dashnexus.org/proposals/dashboard

(we are focusing on the not-allocated part, in above screenshot that currently consists of 6% of the budget / 341,82 Dash)
Looks like several decision proposals are already in the making, to be introduced with the next budget cycle.

We just seem to be missing the pre-proposal discussion on several important Dash channels (DashPay Reddit, Dash.org/forum, Dash Nation Discord) from some of those
new upcoming decision proposals (Rion's decision proposal ?). Hopefully that will be fixed.

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October 24, 2020, 11:21:43 AM

Ok, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. Do you at least concede that? Are you presenting fact or theory?

Here's something to think about...

1) The block reward is not given out until a block is mined.
2) No miners, no block reward.
3) The block reward currently is roughly 2.88 DASH.
4) The miner is able to stay in business even though they only receive roughly 1.44 DASH per block

Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

After all if the miner is profitable enough to stay in business by selling 1.44 DASH, they could easily sell 2.88 DASH at 50% off and still be just as well off.

So, maybe this 50/50 split we currently have puts upward pressure on the price? And maybe that more than offsets the price that masternodes sell at since they don't sell it for $0...






The mining difficulty would adjust higher, making the scarcity /store of value attribute much stronger.

Consider that in 100% proof of work coins they already have 100% of the reward. This idea is already tested and in action in real crypto market

So why is it not working for Bitcoin Cash and Zcash then ? They have 100% proof of work with 100% of the reward and have the exact same negative price performance as Dash.


Dash              -95,6% Price Down from ATH
Bitcoin Cash    -93,8% Price Down from ATH
Zcash             -93,5% Price Down from ATH
  
Source : messari.io

What can we conclude from that ?

Also i don't see how higher mining difficulty increase scarcity. With Dash the difficulty gets adjusted after each block thanks to Dash Dark Gravity Wave, which means the supply generation stays the same. There is no increased scarcity or increased store of value from an increase in mining difficulty.

https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html


What we can conclude is Dash is the worst of those three, also worse than litecoin down 84.57%, worse than bitcoin SV down 62.4%, worse than monero down 74.1%. we can conclude you cherry pick other worst performers as if they are the average and Dash is still worse. Bitcoin down 33.35%.

I'll help you understand scarcity. It would be higher, not because emission rate changes. Because more difficult to obtain, more expensive. Scarcity does not just mean limited quantity but also how desirable and how difficult to obtain.

With all the innovation, features, superior governance etc of Dash you'd think it would be one of the best performers not worst wouldn't you?
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October 24, 2020, 11:23:05 AM

Dash is now excepted in one of the supermarket chain  in Venezuela. Even before this it was the most routine used cryptocurrency in the country.  Judging  what media says it beats even Bitcoin there. I noticed that Dash is the most widely used in countries where the economy is weak, probably because of extra pressure  being put on society by the political regime. Any way if Dash help those poor citizens  to survive then it's  mission there can be considered completed.



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October 24, 2020, 11:34:43 AM

Ok, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. Do you at least concede that? Are you presenting fact or theory?

Here's something to think about...

1) The block reward is not given out until a block is mined.
2) No miners, no block reward.
3) The block reward currently is roughly 2.88 DASH.
4) The miner is able to stay in business even though they only receive roughly 1.44 DASH per block

Now, if they got 100% of the reward and the hashrate/cost remained the same wouldn't there be enormous pressure for the price to be cut in half?

After all if the miner is profitable enough to stay in business by selling 1.44 DASH, they could easily sell 2.88 DASH at 50% off and still be just as well off.

So, maybe this 50/50 split we currently have puts upward pressure on the price? And maybe that more than offsets the price that masternodes sell at since they don't sell it for $0...






The mining difficulty would adjust higher, making the scarcity /store of value attribute much stronger.

Consider that in 100% proof of work coins they already have 100% of the reward. This idea is already tested and in action in real crypto market

So why is it not working for Bitcoin Cash and Zcash then ? They have 100% proof of work with 100% of the reward and have the exact same negative price performance as Dash.


Dash              -95,6% Price Down from ATH
Bitcoin Cash    -93,8% Price Down from ATH
Zcash             -93,5% Price Down from ATH
  
Source : messari.io

What can we conclude from that ?

Also i don't see how higher mining difficulty increase scarcity. With Dash the difficulty gets adjusted after each block thanks to Dash Dark Gravity Wave, which means the supply generation stays the same. There is no increased scarcity or increased store of value from an increase in mining difficulty.

https://docs.dash.org/en/stable/introduction/features.html

Wrong approach.Why comparing with the worst Huh Beside ,comparing with BCH is completely wrong,because that coin split on two different coins and comparing price when it was one coin and now is utterly wrong.

There is a debate about masternodes exaggerate reward and its influence on DASH price.I agree that it is a main reason ,but certainly not only one.Why this economic concept is wrong I will try to explain on example:

Lets say that DASH is gold mining company which wants to collect money needed for theirs mining operations.Management decided that they will issue shares with exceptionally lucrative reward for big shareholders,with 1000 or more shares in theirs portfolio - to give them 50% of everything company mines.At first it makes a lot of fuss between speculators, price of shares goes up fast ,speculation bubble is getting bigger and bigger.Mining operation is starting and big shareholders start to receive its big, 50% reward.It works like a charm for 1-2 years,but as times comes it is obvious that 50% which left to the company is not enough to cover expenses.Speculation bubble is starting to deflate,price of shares goes lower and lower.Shareholders are getting nervous about it,while management is trying to convince them that it is just a small bump on the road to success.As money outflow dramatically outpaces inflow and situation is getting more and more worse,desperate management decides to go with even more lucrative reward for big shareholders.But that makes things even worse as shares price goes nosedive.At one moment few big shareholders are pulling the brake and liquidate theirs shares, beginning quick and vicious cycle of selling at any cost.Company went to bankruptcy,leaving shareholders with worthless shares.

Only one thing is preventing DASH price to goes much lower much faster - its empty Buy orders which cant absorb selling of coins of just one masternode owner without 50% or more slippage.It is disaster that XMR has 20x bigger Buy orders than DASH (Poloniex).There is nothing better what reflects coin true strength as it is how big is its Buy orders side.

qwizzie
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October 24, 2020, 11:45:15 AM

What we can conclude is Dash is the worst of those three

Wrong approach.Why comparing with the worst Huh


All i can conclude is that looking at Bitcoin Cash (one of our main competitors) and Zcash, competitive mining (PoW with 100% of blockrewards going to miners) does not necessarily give better price performance.

Dash              -95,6% Price Down from ATH
Bitcoin Cash    -93,8% Price Down from ATH
Zcash             -93,5% Price Down from ATH
  
Source : messari.io

Which means other factors are at play that influence price performance. Factors that have nothing to do with competitive mining.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
afbitcoins
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October 24, 2020, 11:58:16 AM

All i can conclude is

Based on cherry picking just 2 other bad performers. I gave you a list of other 100% mined coins doing significantly better. You can ignore reality all you want. You can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. Or maybe in your case you can

Just because other factors at play doesn't mean ignore the elephant in the room
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