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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9676265 times)
toknormal
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January 25, 2021, 08:56:20 AM
Last edit: January 25, 2021, 10:37:21 AM by toknormal

1- I agree there is an issue with the reward allocation but toknormal not only overstates it, the solution he provides would absolutely destroy DASH's price, as masternodes would sell faster than the market can absorb the sudden new supply

Lol !  Cheesy What do you think they've been doing for the last 3 years ?

Masternode reward has ranged from $2000 per week to $50 over the last 3 years - a range of 6000% from lowest to highest - and you're quaking in your boots at making a 30% protocol share revision that would radically address our bleeding marketcap ? Your logic defies understanding. Stop being obsessed with masternodes - this coin can go to zero with a full compliment of 5000 nodes no problem at all.

Think of miners and masternodes as 2 market stalls selling coins to the public. If one stall can afford to continuously undercut the other all the way to zero and still be at a profit what do you think is going to happen ? They'll simply erode the price chronically. Swilling around the bottom of the barrel with Sushiswap.
How difficult can this be to understand ?

On the other hand (OTOH) what will be the INSTANTANEOUS effect of increasing the mining share back to 80% as described in this post ? A doubling of our mining competitively for a start attracting "primary buyers" away from other coins and towards us. We know this because even if it isn't promoted, much mining is simply algo-driven and we'd be doubling the reward for hashrate instead of giving it away for free to nodes. Remember that mining is a market.

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Increase competition for the Dash primary supply

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Invoke a speculative pricing in of the future value of the new supply

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Increase the dollar value of masternode rewards

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Increase demand for masternodes

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Start to make us competitive again

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Throw the chornic marketcap erosion we've experienced over the last 3 years into reverse and stabilise our store-of-value offering

We need to break the viscous circle that non-performing masternode rewards are having. People are obsessed with the protocol share and this 45%. Forget it. It's meaningless. The market decides what the reward is. We need to give the market what it wants, not the masternodes what they think they want.

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January 25, 2021, 01:03:43 PM
Merited by aleix (1)

May I remind you that when if/altcoin season comes, Dash is not alone in the race. There are plenty of other candidates with upside on offer - in fact more than ever before - and if it's judged that fully mined coins are more investable than those where half the supply is "donated" to large holders (as it seems to have been up til now) then we might get very little to nothing out of "alt season".

This is completely false and shows just how out of touch with the market you really are.  Absolutely no one and I mean no one is making decisions on buying a coin based on how it is emitted, eg POW, POW hybrid, POS.  Decisions are being made based on emotions "feel", S2F, perceptions of the coin, some fundamentals, TA, but not how much of the supply is mined and minted.  You are just trying to fill your narrative with make-believe in the hope others will buy it and the reason you post so much is because you know what I am saying is true, so you are trying to bend the will of readers to the bearish case so as to sell the coin and prove you right.  It is a bit sick that you should try so hard to FUD this coin just for your own satisfaction?  Or do you also have a large short position on this coin?  What is your motivation for spewing this FUD on a daily basis?
toknormal
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January 25, 2021, 01:44:07 PM


Decisions are being made based on emotions "feel"...

Individual decisions may be.

But the aggregate performance of the marketcap in relation to other mined coins is characterised by the dynamics described above. Overpaying for a masternode network that costs peanuts to run.
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January 25, 2021, 07:57:58 PM

1- I agree there is an issue with the reward allocation but toknormal not only overstates it, the solution he provides would absolutely destroy DASH's price, as masternodes would sell faster than the market can absorb the sudden new supply

Lol !  Cheesy What do you think they've been doing for the last 3 years ?

Masternode reward has ranged from $2000 per week to $50 over the last 3 years - a range of 6000% from lowest to highest - and you're quaking in your boots at making a 30% protocol share revision that would radically address our bleeding marketcap ? Your logic defies understanding. Stop being obsessed with masternodes - this coin can go to zero with a full compliment of 5000 nodes no problem at all.

Sigh... at least you acknowledged my first point I guess. But you didn't refute it, you distract us with using the bear market as an excuse for your proposed experiment. A market where the majority of cryptos, not just DASH suffered at least 95% fall from their ATH. And people on here actually call this a discussion or debate? You immediately resort to insults.

Ok, let me state it more plainly then. If you changed the reward ratio from 60/40 to 20/80 (or 8/92 - the sweet spot?), which masternode owners do you suppose would not dump their coins within the hour of finding out? What would that massive influx of supply do to the price?

I cut the rest of your response because it added nothing new to the discussion. It's almost as if you had written it before I posted, just waiting to copy and paste it as a reply...
toknormal
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January 25, 2021, 10:33:18 PM


Ok, let me state it more plainly then. If you changed the reward ratio from 60/40 to 20/80 (or 8/92 - the sweet spot?), which masternode owners do you suppose would not dump their coins within the hour of finding out? What would that massive influx of supply do to the price?

None of them would if they had any sense. Clearly that's the whole point of making this argument - that it's in their interests to support this. You're over-focused on the reward. Masternodes are far more exposed to capital losses (or opportunity costs through diminishing competitivity) than they are to small changes in reward because they have 1000 Dash at stake.

What would be the difference ? We'd be going from 1.3 Dash per week (45% reward share) to around 8% (0.23 Dash per week). So you'd be making 1 Dash per month for running a node.

Now that is far more realistic at high valuations. It's also far more realistic given the operating costs that nodes incur. It also highly incentivises the investment in nodes because the operating profit margin of a masternode (unlike with BTC/LTC or even Dash miners) increases with increasing Dash price, but the real objective is not increased reward anyway. It's capital gain of the holding (and therefore EVERY Dash holding, not just masternodes).

At the moment, everybody is paying for masternode rewards. Not only masternodes themselves (through relative capital loss compared to fully mined coins) but also other holders who don't receive any reward. If you really think all this is worth it just to sustain the illusion of a numerically consistent but otherwise diminishing reward, then I don't think you understand your own investment well enough.
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January 26, 2021, 06:07:12 AM

I dont think its just DASH.

All the old store of value coins are losing popularity.

Its defi's turn now to make people some money. 

These old coins and masternode projects are slowly fading into insignificance
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January 26, 2021, 06:07:57 AM

I dont think its just DASH.

All the old store of value coins are losing popularity.

Its defi's turn now to make people some money.  

These old coins and masternode projects are slowly fading into insignificance
jdmcg
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January 26, 2021, 06:18:54 AM


Ok, let me state it more plainly then. If you changed the reward ratio from 60/40 to 20/80 (or 8/92 - the sweet spot?), which masternode owners do you suppose would not dump their coins within the hour of finding out? What would that massive influx of supply do to the price?

None of them would if they had any sense. Clearly that's the whole point of making this argument - that it's in their interests to support this. You're over-focused on the reward. Masternodes are far more exposed to capital losses (or opportunity costs through diminishing competitivity) than they are to small changes in reward because they have 1000 Dash at stake.

What would be the difference ? We'd be going from 1.3 Dash per week (45% reward share) to around 8% (0.23 Dash per week). So you'd be making 1 Dash per month for running a node.

Now that is far more realistic at high valuations. It's also far more realistic given the operating costs that nodes incur. It also highly incentivises the investment in nodes because the operating profit margin of a masternode (unlike with BTC/LTC or even Dash miners) increases with increasing Dash price, but the real objective is not increased reward anyway. It's capital gain of the holding (and therefore EVERY Dash holding, not just masternodes).

At the moment, everybody is paying for masternode rewards. Not only masternodes themselves (through relative capital loss compared to fully mined coins) but also other holders who don't receive any reward. If you really think all this is worth it just to sustain the illusion of a numerically consistent but otherwise diminishing reward, then I don't think you understand your own investment well enough.

Ok, well, first, thank you for the change in tone. I think your message comes across a lot clearer once the noise is removed.

I'm still skeptical that the current masternode owners would want to host masternodes at such a reduced reward in DASH. So there's risk that many would dump simply because this is not what they originally signed up for. I would entertain the thought of going as low as 30/70 for the reward ratio and then see how the network reacts before re-evaluating to see if any further adjustment were needed.

I understand what you say about mining and I'm aware of a couple of studies which seem to indicate that mining does have an upward pressure on price. But if it's such a great idea, why aren't any of the newer blockchains choosing POW? Is there only so much room for POW chains? Or are there actually better ways for a blockchain to work now. Mining still seems like busy work to me to help spur adoption for Bitcoin when no one really understood its value. Once people get onboard and discover the power it offers, perhaps mining fades in its importance.

And then there's Dash Platform which could completely change the economics of DASH. If it adds enough utility and attracts enough new users, it could make the reward ratio irrelevant as demand outstrips supply anyway.

Anyways I think your biggest problem is that you need to get the support of the majority of masternode owners for this. The only 2 here that have been vocal might not even have masternodes to vote with anymore.
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January 26, 2021, 10:24:34 AM
Last edit: January 27, 2021, 11:43:37 PM by toknormal


I'm still skeptical that the current masternode owners would want to host masternodes at such a reduced reward in DASH. So there's risk that many would dump simply because this is not what they originally signed up for.

Like I say. We already have the scenario. (They also didn't sign up for an asset that they thought would be uncompetitive). If masternodes are profitable at any price then there will be takers at any price because none of the other POW coins in our league are even rewarded yet they all have fairly healthy networks.

I'm aware of a couple of studies which seem to indicate that mining does have an upward pressure on price. But if it's such a great idea, why aren't any of the newer blockchains choosing POW?

First of all, the most specific question here is, is Dash's primary (new) supply better spent on:

 • attracting competition for that supply or
 • giveaways to masternodes

The concept of "hashrate" is deceptive because it makes people think it's about wasting energy, but they're missing the economic role it plays which is to mediate competition for the supply. By spending less on "hashrate" we're not saving money, we're just reducing the size of our primary market. I re-emphasis, we MUST see this in terms of primary and secondary markets. If we don't take this into account we'll miss the big picture and sink to the bottom of the rankings just because we were so blind that we didn't realise mining was a market.

Moving now to the broader aspect of your question...

Quote
But if it's such a great idea, why aren't any of the newer blockchains choosing POW?

...as I explained in an earlier post, there are generally only 3 approaches at the moment to store value in a crypto:

1. mining (= a trustless market for the primary supply)
2. on-chain services (the "De-Fi" model which consumes tokens and burns them to pay for on-chain computing services)
3. monetary velocity (your coin has such a high circulation for making payments that that alone sustains demand+price)

The "new chains" can get away with POS because that supply growth is needed to fuel all the on-chain Dapps that are growing on their platforms. They also support securitisation models (tokens on top of tokens) which in themselves can consume tokens or create monetary velocity. But Dash is not going the De-Fi route. It's going to have OFF-CHAIN Daps. We don't even have high fees like bitcoin does to sustain demand - our fees are specifically promoted as being LOW, so we can't rely on bitcoin's model of moving from mining to a fee-only model as emission dwindles.

Monetary velocity is also a dead-end because we are not a stable coin. Stable coins are going to be where all the day to day transacting gets done in terms of paying for coffees etc.

So Dash's natural market is still where it always was - a more versatile version of bitcoin. A highly mined store-of-value that's easy to move around and cheap to transact in where it's possible (unlike bitcoin) to earn a trustless dividend by running a masternode. There is nobody else in that space.

But the whole point of decoupling the mining and service protocols in Dash was so that we didn't have to compromise mining (or even a slow blocktime) to support a high level of services. We could have our cake (mining) and eat it (services). But if the protocol doesn't offer a very high mining contingent then that advantage is lost. I mean  - what do we have to lose ? The budget is just being thrown away at the moment. It's ok for attracting masternode growth but once they reach equilibrium nodecount then it's simply wasted. It has the opposite effect.

Alexey45
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January 28, 2021, 04:48:59 AM

Deathly silence.
Cadaverous odor is heard in the top 50, where DASH entered yesterday.
Stability like a graveyard.
qwizzie huddled under the plinth, I'm afraid.
Rightly afraid, evil investors will first shoot you in the knees, then in the head
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January 28, 2021, 05:56:44 AM

Deathly silence.
Cadaverous odor is heard in the top 50, where DASH entered yesterday.
Stability like a graveyard.
qwizzie huddled under the plinth, I'm afraid.
Rightly afraid, evil investors will first shoot you in the knees, then in the head

Its because these kind of projects/coins are getting less and less popular.
Check Bitcoin Cash, SV and Litecoin, Monero.  All dropping and dropping.

Its defi's time.  Dash and possibly all those others will be out of the top 100 by end of the year
toknormal
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January 28, 2021, 09:58:08 AM

Its defi's time.  Dash and possibly all those others will be out of the top 100 by end of the year

Lets be generous and remove "De-Fi" then:

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January 28, 2021, 11:28:30 AM

Its defi's time.  Dash and possibly all those others will be out of the top 100 by end of the year

Lets be generous and remove "De-Fi" then:



Ok, lets change it to store of value

You dont need 100 coins for store of value  Wink

And you use case as well
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January 28, 2021, 09:26:03 PM

Can anyone confirm if this is the official Dash Electrum wallet app in Google play? Thanks.

Code:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dash.electrum.electrum_dash

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January 29, 2021, 06:41:30 AM

Can anyone confirm if this is the official Dash Electrum wallet app in Google play? Thanks.

Code:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dash.electrum.electrum_dash
I guess it is not.

From the website https://www.dash.org/downloads/
I get links to wallet for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=hashengineering.darkcoin.wallet

It can be a faked app.

Dash Electrum wallet is for Windows, macOS and Linux. On the website I don't see Dash Electrum for Android.

I searched in Google Play and I guess the wallet I found is what you mean: 0 reviews, and it is from 42 Cofee cups. A real wallet should come from Dash Core Group Inc.
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January 29, 2021, 09:10:31 AM
Last edit: January 29, 2021, 10:20:41 AM by aleix
Merited by Rikafip (1)

Can anyone confirm if this is the official Dash Electrum wallet app in Google play? Thanks.

Code:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dash.electrum.electrum_dash

I agree with @MusaMohamed, this looks fake. Check the wallets from: https://www.dash.org/downloads

The DASH team is checking about this app as we speak. Thanks for the info!  



I checked with the DASH team.  The app is good. No worries.   Smiley

I searched in Google Play and I guess the wallet I found is what you mean: 0 reviews, and it is from 42 Cofee cups. A real wallet should come from Dash Core Group Inc.

The app is from an external developer, funded by the DASH decentralized budget:

https://www.dashcentral.org/p/DashElectrumJan2021

They will improve in the image of the app announcement to avoid further confusion.

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January 29, 2021, 12:44:39 PM

So how long until Dash votes for a new reward allocation that favours mining?

By end of Feb? By end of this year? Never ever ever ?
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January 29, 2021, 04:34:50 PM
Last edit: January 29, 2021, 08:48:54 PM by toknormal


Here's my best take on it.

We can either decide it's not important or decide to do nothing, but we can't pretend it's not there. We're talking about more than half the emission (after Spork 21) so it seems more than a side-issue to me.

(IMO what we should do is target a medium term reference price for mining/masternode profitability parity - say $800 as described in these tables. That would signal to markets a reference point for valuation and give us an investible margin either side for a speculative range.

It would also serve as a kind of rolling peg since Dash has positioned itself as a payments medium so some form of valuation "anchor" would be consistent with that role.

We've already seen that the reward ratio is semi-dynamic at long term periods. It just needs a vote. If the valuation becomes stable again at the higher level and transaction count warants a higher liquidity then the reward ratio set by the protocol could then be reset to a higher value - i.e. target mining/MN profitability parity at a new higher price. It wouldn't prevent speculative investment, it just gives the market a much stronger signal as to investment viability than it has at the moment.

This would turn a weakness....into a strength IMO).

(By this measure, our "parity peg" is currently set at something like sub $50
).



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January 29, 2021, 06:23:50 PM
Last edit: January 29, 2021, 09:15:39 PM by aleix

Today at 4pm EST/9pm UTC, Dash dev Samuel Westrich aka QuantumExplorer comes on the Dash podcast! Watch live and join the live crypto superchat!

https://youtu.be/ns4g7TbQSOU




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afbitcoins
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January 30, 2021, 10:53:29 AM
Last edit: February 01, 2021, 10:29:05 PM by afbitcoins


Here's my best take on it.

We can either decide it's not important or decide to do nothing, but we can't pretend it's not there. We're talking about more than half the emission (after Spork 21) so it seems more than a side-issue to me.

(IMO what we should do is target a medium term reference price for mining/masternode profitability parity - say $800 as described in these tables. That would signal to markets a reference point for valuation and give us an investible margin either side for a speculative range.

It would also serve as a kind of rolling peg since Dash has positioned itself as a payments medium so some form of valuation "anchor" would be consistent with that role.

We've already seen that the reward ratio is semi-dynamic at long term periods. It just needs a vote. If the valuation becomes stable again at the higher level and transaction count warants a higher liquidity then the reward ratio set by the protocol could then be reset to a higher value - i.e. target mining/MN profitability parity at a new higher price. It wouldn't prevent speculative investment, it just gives the market a much stronger signal as to investment viability than it has at the moment.

This would turn a weakness....into a strength IMO).

(By this measure, our "parity peg" is currently set at something like sub $50
).

*snipped images*

Agreed, its definitely not a side issue. For me this is THE most important issue for dash and dash has it all wrong.

Do you know how scalable is your sweet spot at dash prices many times higher than your tables ?

You say we could turn a weakness into a strength by voting. So far in Dash history this has not happened. You have more faith than me in masternode vote. What I would like to see is a sweet spot that scales to any price. Set the reward allocation to it and then make it taboo to ever alter it again, just as the total amount to ever exist should not be altered (although in dash even that already did happen in the early days!).

If there is no static 'sweet spot' that scales to any price then I'd like to see the protocol adjust it automatically. Like the way mining difficulty is adjusted automatically, not by voting. I don't know how that could be achieved though. What I'm getting at is I do not trust masternode owners to make the right decisions I think there should be things out of the scope of masternode vote. Tampering with protocol to please masternode owners hurts store of value in other ways.

Part of why bitcoin is so good as store of value is its so hard to alter the protocol. Just look how hard it was to increase the block size or implement segwit. From a store of value point of view this is what you want. You don't want to invest in something and then the rug gets pulled out from under your feet by a bunch of developers or a bunch of masternode owners. You want to have confidence that what you are investing in will remain what you think it is.

Dash at that time voted to increase the block size to 2M even though it wasn't needed at all (I think i was almost the only person to vote against that btw). As a way to try and show superior governance. Maybe that has had the opposite effect in a sense. Neither bitcoin cash, or dash have eclipsed bitcoin in store of value since that block size fight. Part of the appeal of bitcoin in the first place is that you don't have a central banker tampering with the way it is minted or increasing the supply. Maybe what we think of as superior governance in dash is actually not? Dash don't have central bankers but has masternode owners which amounts to more or less the same thing. Nothing out of reach for them to fuck with.


* edit: small correction, where I said block reward I meant block size
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