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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 47275 times)
LoyceMobile
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June 11, 2019, 08:19:31 AM
 #1681

IMO it'd be nice if in the future it's a subset of 100 among a pool of 250+.
Any plans to promote custom Trust lists? A banner like April fool's day on top of all pages can create much more awareness.

LoyceV on the road (or in bed, couch, ....). Don't deal with this account (there's one exception), I use it on untrusted devices.
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June 11, 2019, 10:20:30 AM
Last edit: June 11, 2019, 03:31:30 PM by Lauda
Merited by Foxpup (2), mindrust (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #1682

I was always intending to choose a random subset of 100 once more than 100 became eligible. This creates more people who have a credible threat of retaliation: if you give someone negative trust for some stupid reason, you have reason to worry about them or a close friend of theirs negative-trusting you for a similarly stupid reason, if not in this month, then in a future month. I think that it pushes people (without forcing people) toward acting in-line with consensus, so that any retaliation against your sent negative trust always gets the sender excluded definitively.
Or it enables semi-random accounts to permanently keep you tagged because they ran an "election" in some local section. I think you've underestimated how evil your forum members are, given the right opportunity.

A good case:
1) I've excluded a big bulk of people from a "turkish election" (this is not decentralized in any way and if I did something similar, you'd have 10x the gang threads you have right now) here: thread.
2) I have been retaliatory tagged by a verified scammer a long time ago: profile.
3) The user seems to find themselves now in DT2 due to his buddies. Quite a trustworthy list indeed.
4) A few users have been PM'd about this, some of which are in the exclusion list[1].

[1] I took the opposite path of getting adequate number of exclusions and went straight to the root of the problem. You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.

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June 11, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
 #1683

Theymos updated DT1 today. I made a new list of DT1 and DT2 members (unfortunately, DT1 and trust scores are still based on last Saturday's Trust data dump, I will update this next Saturday).

Would this be possible:

A list of former DT2 members who are no longer in DT2 because their "sponsors" got randomly excluded from DT1 (or got banned, which seems to be the second most common cause of departure). Particularly ones that were sponsored by more than one DT1 member. There might be some good people among them who deserve to be considered by other DT1 members.

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June 11, 2019, 04:10:38 PM
Last edit: June 11, 2019, 04:20:53 PM by The-One-Above-All
 #1684

I was always intending to choose a random subset of 100 once more than 100 became eligible. This creates more people who have a credible threat of retaliation: if you give someone negative trust for some stupid reason, you have reason to worry about them or a close friend of theirs negative-trusting you for a similarly stupid reason, if not in this month, then in a future month. I think that it pushes people (without forcing people) toward acting in-line with consensus, so that any retaliation against your sent negative trust always gets the sender excluded definitively.
Or it enables semi-random accounts to permanently keep you tagged because they ran an "election" in some local section. I think you've underestimated how evil your forum members are, given the right opportunity.

A good case:
1) I've excluded a big bulk of people from a "turkish election" (this is not decentralized in any way and if I did something similar, you'd have 10x the gang threads you have right now) here: thread.
2) I have been retaliatory tagged by a verified scammer a long time ago: profile.
3) The user seems to find themselves now in DT2 due to his buddies. Quite a trustworthy list indeed.
4) A few users have been PM'd about this, some of which are in the exclusion list[1].

[1] I took the opposite path of getting adequate number of exclusions and went straight to the root of the problem. You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.

The reader should be aware that LAUDA is a VERIFIED SCAMMER himself.  He is also a VERIFIED TRUST ABUSER who uses red trust to silence whistle blowers that present observable instances of his own lying and scamming. If the reader wants evidence then just ask.

This is highly relevant here because of course THEYMOS's suggestion of actually trying to introduce some REAL variance and decentralized governance in DT (not just some pseudo decentralization with numerous colluding accounts all working together as one single gang) is being met with displeasure. You notice fox poop the person who merited vod for doxxing OG is again meriting this bogus and far less important EXCUSE for lauda not wishing for people to give him retaliatory feedback for his trust abuse.

Some REAL decentralization will perhaps improve things in the short term but will always collapse into factions of people that will still abuse everyone else except other factions that have the power to retaliate. Only a central power can ensure the FAIREST and most optimal environment here.

Forget this decentralized self governing nonsense Theymos. Such a notion is never going to work. On an anonymous forum a centralized power YOU is always going to be required to enforce RULES for ALL members EQUALLY.  I understand your reluctance to be responsible for ALL rights and wrongs here. That opens you up to all kinds of criticisms and perhaps even legal responsibilities. Appoint us to do it.  If at ANY point you consider ANYTHING we have done to be UNFAIR then remove us and give someone else a chance.

Or if not us just give ONE person who is ACCOUNTABLE the DT blacklisting power who will use it.


Give us/them 1 admin power - a black list button for DT  

1. Proven scammer = red trust
2. Strong case is a scammer or intending to scam = red trust
3. If you are shown proof or strong case of scamming or intending to scam you MUST red trust ANY PERSON (no pals rules)

Stick to that and do not give red trust outside of those 3 rules  OR ELSE  you get black listed.

Why are we still messing around with this nonsense. You want rid of scammers, you want rid of trust abusers?  let's do it.

Free speech is the most important thing on this board, far more important than people gaming all of this for the best sig spots, campaign manger spots, escrowing positions.  These systems of control are crushing free speech. Merit is the carrot to encourage group think, red trust is the stick to create an echo chamber and silence legitimate criticism.

Both are garbage simply dangerous in their current form.

Let's remove the jack boot of red trust from the throat of legitimate and verifiable criticism. Then work on making merit mean something other than you agree and support those giving the merits out.

Next I would introduce a standard that encourages the REQUIREMENT to present observable instances for ANY accusation directly related to behavior on this forum. If you can not present observable instances to substantiate your claims then you must NOT repeat them because that is lying and deliberately proliferating FALSE information. The last thing you want is a forum full of bullshit and propaganda. If you make a claim regarding some persons actions directly related to this board then you MUST be able to present the observable instances you are referring to.

Let's turn bitcointalk in to a real meritocracy. Where each member is treated equally and measured against a transparent set of fair rules for their recognition.

So therefore forget about tweaking the mechanisms of DT selection. Worry more about how they act when they are elected than the process of electing them. People change when they get some power, people change more when they believe they are entrenched in positions of power. Therefore any ELECTION process is far less important than the REMOVAL and BLACKLISTING they KNOW they will face for abusing their position. This MAD notion where mutually assured destruction will pull the entire thing inline will only work for those in DT everyone else with no RED to fire back will just get abused still. It may help but it is not a fix and is weak sauce compared to the 3 strict rules that all DT must abide by.

Give a 2 month amnesty to get all their Red trust in order then enough is enough.

100 selected people from "seemingly" different factions will soon enough collapse into a few factions all abusing everyone else but the other factions capable of retaliation.  

Better to just rip the band aid off now.


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June 11, 2019, 05:08:07 PM
Merited by yogg (3), JayJuanGee (1)
 #1685

Give us/them [i.e. cryptohunter - suchmoon's note] 1 admin power - a black list button for DT

Apologies to everyone who had this person on ignore but this gem is so brilliant that I couldn't let you miss it Smiley

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June 11, 2019, 05:10:01 PM
 #1686

^^^
I'm not reading all that. Is there any way you could condense your rants into like 100 - 200 words? Furthermore, you're a Jr. Member, and you swear you're not cryptohunter ( Roll Eyes) so why do you think anybody should take anything you have to say seriously? As a Jr Member you haven't been here long enough to understand the complexities of the forum or the way the system works... Can you please stop invading thread that don't concern you?

Give us/them [i.e. cryptohunter - suchmoon's note] 1 admin power - a black list button for DT

Apologies to everyone who had this person on ignore but this gem is so brilliant that I couldn't let you miss it Smiley

Forgot about the ignore button, thanks for the reminder.

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June 11, 2019, 05:15:50 PM
 #1687

^^^
I'm not reading all that. Is there any way you could condense your rants into like 100 - 200 words? Furthermore, you're a Jr. Member, and you swear you're not cryptohunter ( Roll Eyes) so why do you think anybody should take anything you have to say seriously? As a Jr Member you haven't been here long enough to understand the complexities of the forum or the way the system works... Can you please stop invading thread that don't concern you?

This all seems like some off topic garbage, that does not address the valid points that I have just presented regarding the attempt to break up the strangle hold on DT one factions currently has by hand selecting a 100 "more varied" members from a larger pool of DT's.

Also I could have been lurking here since 2010 as far as you know.

Please increase your attention span to 5 mins or greater so that you can read a very brief post like that which was just posted.

I'm pretty sure that someone could in 1 single day gain an understanding of the mechanisms that determine DT and their implications just by reading cryptohunters very informative thread.

Likely it is  too long for your to take in, but you are welcome to have a crack at it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088852.0
Matthias9515
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June 11, 2019, 05:27:39 PM
 #1688

I was always intending to choose a random subset of 100 once more than 100 became eligible. This creates more people who have a credible threat of retaliation: if you give someone negative trust for some stupid reason, you have reason to worry about them or a close friend of theirs negative-trusting you for a similarly stupid reason, if not in this month, then in a future month. I think that it pushes people (without forcing people) toward acting in-line with consensus, so that any retaliation against your sent negative trust always gets the sender excluded definitively.
Or it enables semi-random accounts to permanently keep you tagged because they ran an "election" in some local section. I think you've underestimated how evil your forum members are, given the right opportunity.

A good case:
1) I've excluded a big bulk of people from a "turkish election" (this is not decentralized in any way and if I did something similar, you'd have 10x the gang threads you have right now) here: thread.
2) I have been retaliatory tagged by a verified scammer a long time ago: profile.
3) The user seems to find themselves now in DT2 due to his buddies. Quite a trustworthy list indeed.
4) A few users have been PM'd about this, some of which are in the exclusion list[1].

[1] I took the opposite path of getting adequate number of exclusions and went straight to the root of the problem. You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.

This election was fair and natural. You know Theymos can see all ip logs but you didn't behave fairly.

Quote
2) I have been retaliatory tagged by a verified scammer a long time ago: profile.
3) The user seems to find themselves now in DT2 due to his buddies. Quite a trustworthy list indeed.

What a lie. Goraset isn't DT2 and he didn't join the election.
Lauda
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June 11, 2019, 06:06:00 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1689

This election was fair and natural. You know Theymos can see all ip logs but you didn't behave fairly.
Nonsense. It is nepotism and has nothing to do with decentralization. This is the exact same response that I got the last time I took down some colluding/abusing pricks from the Turkish section. I'm just waiting for someone to play the victim/discrimination card again so that I can whoop your asses even further. Predictable and childish play; time to grow up.

Quote
2) I have been retaliatory tagged by a verified scammer a long time ago: profile.
3) The user seems to find themselves now in DT2 due to his buddies. Quite a trustworthy list indeed.
What a lie. Goraset isn't DT2 and he didn't join the election.
Goraset isn't in DT2 because I kicked him out shortly after posting about it. Your brain isn't advanced enough to keep up.

You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.
The post that I just responded to (which I also got as a PM) exactly proved my point. None of these people should be anywhere near DT.

@theymos: There also needs to be a way for the trust list of an inactive/dead account to get automatically de-activated (yet remain where it is in the very odd case that such a user does come back). Given your target numbers, both DT1 and DT2 will have many members primarily due to such accounts/old lists.

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Matthias9515
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June 11, 2019, 06:27:40 PM
 #1690

This election was fair and natural. You know Theymos can see all ip logs but you didn't behave fairly.
Nonsense. It is nepotism and has nothing to do with decentralization. This is the exact same response that I got the last time I took down some colluding/abusing pricks from the Turkish section. I'm just waiting for someone to play the victim/discrimination card again so that I can whoop your asses even further. Predictable and childish play; time to grow up.

Quote
2) I have been retaliatory tagged by a verified scammer a long time ago: profile.
3) The user seems to find themselves now in DT2 due to his buddies. Quite a trustworthy list indeed.
What a lie. Goraset isn't DT2 and he didn't join the election.
Goraset isn't in DT2 because I kicked him out shortly after posting about it. Your brain isn't advanced enough to keep up.

You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.
The post that I just responded to (which I also got as a PM) exactly proved my point. None of these people should be anywhere near DT.

@theymos: There also needs to be a way for the trust list of an inactive/dead account to get automatically de-activated (yet remain where it is in the very odd case that such a user does come back). Given your target numbers, both DT1 and DT2 will have many members primarily due to such accounts/old lists.

Dear attention whore,

You didn't give distrust people who joined the election such as Mindrust, Vispilio and Lydian because they don't speak Turkish. You are racist and you don't have a brain.

But, you know that? We will kick your ass. Don't worry.
Lauda
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June 11, 2019, 06:30:00 PM
 #1691

Dear attention whore,

You didn't give distrust people who joined the election such as Mindrust, Vispilio and Lydian because they don't speak Turkish. You are racist and you don't have a brain.

But, you know that? We will kick your ass. Don't worry.
https://archive.fo/5ERsk#selection-4707.0-4707.55

You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.
This was much easier than most cases. Thanks for the threat. Roll Eyes

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The Pharmacist
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June 11, 2019, 06:30:56 PM
 #1692

Oh well, easy come, easy go.  I figured I'd get the boot from DT eventually and I have no hard feelings about it whatsoever.  Things change, and I do thank the people who had me on their trust lists (or still do).  Hopefully everything will work out A-OK from here on out.

Also I could have been lurking here since 2010 as far as you know.
Nah.  You're cryptohunter and everyone knows it--and why you're using this account now.

Matthias9515
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June 11, 2019, 06:31:43 PM
Last edit: June 11, 2019, 08:06:35 PM by Matthias9515
 #1693

Dear attention whore,

You didn't give distrust people who joined the election such as Mindrust, Vispilio and Lydian because they don't speak Turkish. You are racist and you don't have a brain.

But, you know that? We will kick your ass. Don't worry.
https://archive.fo/5ERsk#selection-4707.0-4707.55

You can follow this in order to see how pawns will not behave according to your theory.
This was much easier than most cases. Thanks for the threat. Roll Eyes

Everyone can see what's easy. You're the only easy thing here  Roll Eyes
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June 11, 2019, 06:34:03 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #1694

Give us/them [i.e. cryptohunter - suchmoon's note] 1 admin power - a black list button for DT

Apologies to everyone who had this person on ignore but this gem is so brilliant that I couldn't let you miss it Smiley

      Cheesy So OAA want the trust system to be centralized and have theymos delegate the responsibilities to "them?" I doubt theymos will even read enough of the post to get to that part, much less consider this. Too bad we can't test this scenario in some sort of sandbox. I'd love to see what the results would be.  Roll Eyes

Oh well, easy come, easy go.  I figured I'd get the boot from DT eventually and I have no hard feelings about it whatsoever.  Things change, and I do thank the people who had me on their trust lists (or still do).  Hopefully everything will work out A-OK from here on out.


You are sill on DT2 though. A pretty solid DT2 as well.

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suchmoon
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June 11, 2019, 06:48:51 PM
 #1695

Too bad we can't test this scenario in some sort of sandbox. I'd love to see what the results would be.  Roll Eyes

http://loyce.club/trust/2019-06-08_Sat_06.22h/92110.html

You are sill on DT2 though. A pretty solid DT2 as well.

And you can't opt out of it in any feasible way even if you wanted to.

TECSHARE
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June 11, 2019, 06:52:54 PM
Merited by Quickseller (1)
 #1696

Oh well, easy come, easy go.  I figured I'd get the boot from DT eventually and I have no hard feelings about it whatsoever.  Things change, and I do thank the people who had me on their trust lists (or still do).  Hopefully everything will work out A-OK from here on out.

This is just a result of the random selection Theymos just implemented. You will cycle back through next time.

THIS SPACE FOR RENT  Did I post something you found helpful? Send me a tip: 1Hz3HZT4v8qxtyYiRQ66UHTUSK3dKCnVMW
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June 11, 2019, 07:15:49 PM
 #1697

Theymos updated DT1 today. I made a new list of DT1 and DT2 members (unfortunately, DT1 and trust scores are still based on last Saturday's Trust data dump, I will update this next Saturday).
Would this be possible:

A list of former DT2 members who are no longer in DT2 because their "sponsors" got randomly excluded from DT1 (or got banned, which seems to be the second most common cause of departure). Particularly ones that were sponsored by more than one DT1 member. There might be some good people among them who deserve to be considered by other DT1 members.
Of course it's possible Tongue But I didn't keep records of DT2-members. I'll move your suggestion to Vod's "Realish" time DT1 Change Log.

The Pharmacist
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June 11, 2019, 08:04:30 PM
Last edit: June 11, 2019, 08:22:40 PM by The Pharmacist
 #1698

Oh well, easy come, easy go.  I figured I'd get the boot from DT eventually and I have no hard feelings about it whatsoever.  Things change, and I do thank the people who had me on their trust lists (or still do).  Hopefully everything will work out A-OK from here on out.

This is just a result of the random selection Theymos just implemented. You will cycle back through next time.
A'ight, appreciate the answer.  

I just checked Vod's BPIP 'real-time' DT1 thing, and it says I no longer trust a bunch of people that I still trust, and I have not modified my trust list except to put Yahoo62278 back on it just now.  What in the world is going on?  The world on its ear just pivoted to the other ear and I am the one left with an aching head.  No one else seems affected.

Edit:

It shows DT1-to-DT1 events and since you're no longer in DT1 it thinks you dropped everyone. Vod's working on a fix.
*Whew*

So no need for another MRI of my noodle.  The referring physician of my last one had breath that reeked of hexane and spoiled poon-Tang, though the radiology department was soothing while I was strapped in the tube.  There is nothing wrong with me.  It's all of YOU!

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June 11, 2019, 08:11:02 PM
 #1699

I just checked Vod's BPIP 'real-time' DT1 thing, and it says I no longer trust a bunch of people that I still trust, and I have not modified my trust list except to put Yahoo62278 back on it just now.  What in the world is going on?  The world on its ear just pivoted to the other ear and I am the one left with an aching head.  No one else seems affected.

It shows DT1-to-DT1 events and since you're no longer in DT1 it thinks you dropped everyone. Vod's working on a fix.

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June 11, 2019, 08:49:45 PM
Last edit: June 11, 2019, 09:03:16 PM by PHI1618
 #1700

All DT1 members are now aware that there will be months we are excluded, and there is nothing we can do to prevent it.
A good safety-net is to follow my trust list as close as possible. New additions of the day:

Quote
~silverfuture
~kroneko
~xyz
~cygan
~2run
~by rallier
~teramit
~Buchi-88
~quasimodo
~mhanbostanci
~Halmater
~Matthias9515
~PHI1618
~sonerbo
~BitcoinTurk
~bobita
~wolwoo
~gorkem19888
~gospodin
~trendcoin
~Bthd
~ziya1453
~Kalemder
~ekiller
~AlyattesLydia
~Asber
~HARDCRACKERS
~jopen
~Leteravian
~ugurum15
~addtelegrams
~goraset

More are probably needed but the list is getting too large too fast to review everyone.


Dear Lauda;
Do you know me? Have you read my messages before? Have we had a long conversation with you before? Have you ever heard of me before?
These questions apply to all members of your distrust.
I think your answer is "no"

But you still don't trust people you don't know by seeing yourself as the security guard of this forum. Adding people you don't know and never see to your distrust list for no reason is nonsense.

The Turkish section needed a DT member. Since the members in the Turkish board did not know the use of the "trust system" very well, Matthias guided them. And theymos have identified a few DT members from our department. If the use of the turst system had been known, the DT members would have already emerged from Turkish board. Matthias has just accomplished what it should be.

But despite all this, you found people to be unreliable because they were only Turkish with all your recklessness. I don't think this is a realistic explanation of what you're doing. We're tired of your racist behavior!
The Turkish section is one of the largest local sections of this forum. And you can't stop it. I hope your racism, one of the biggest humanitarian problems in this world, will come to an end.




By the way, as theymos mentioned, I find you unreliable too and add you to my distrust list.
I'm not a belligerent or vindictive person. I prefer to act with logic. But your irrationality required it. I'm sorry for this.
I was always intending to choose a random subset of 100 once more than 100 became eligible. This creates more people who have a credible threat of retaliation: if you give someone negative trust for some stupid reason, you have reason to worry about them or a close friend of theirs negative-trusting you for a similarly stupid reason, if not in this month, then in a future month. I think that it pushes people (without forcing people) toward acting in-line with consensus, so that any retaliation against your sent negative trust always gets the sender excluded definitively.

Next month, maybe I'm off the DT list. Maybe you'il be a DT member again. These are things that can always change.
I hope you get rid of this dangerous mindset. I'm just a member who tries to improve the Turkish board I write. I'm so simple like this.
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