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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1905236 times)
justusranvier
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November 15, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
 #16961

Useful proof of work also changes incentives
"Useful proof of work" is an oxymoron.

If the computations are useful, then they are a proof of nothing.
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Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 03:01:53 PM
 #16962

Useful proof of work also changes incentives
"Useful proof of work" is an oxymoron.

If the computations are useful, then they are a proof of nothing.

We can do contract using OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY.

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
NewLiberty
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November 15, 2014, 03:09:23 PM
 #16963


scipSC can be started today using
a) oracle
b) Federated Peg: oracle & scip-proof

 => "oracle & scip-proof" can be changed into
c) scip-proof when 70% of nodes adopt OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY
Granted, but that is less the issue.
(and BTW SCIP can also deterministically verify what those nodes are running)

In this thread we are sort of assuming that it works, the issue is more about what happens when it works.


At another level "Computational Integrity Verification" is sort of a CompSci holy grail.  Things like "The end of virus", "perfect chip testing", and lots of other breakthroughs will come from this, essentially it hails the end of analog (and there is a whole lot of that in computer engineering)  It is not a small thing.


So in one sense, Bitcoin is the very best thing that it can be applied to and should be first.
However... we have to recognize that it is entirely experimental.  And it does a lot.
It is Robert Oppenheimer level impact on the world of computing.

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justusranvier
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November 15, 2014, 03:14:46 PM
 #16964

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking. Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 03:30:11 PM
 #16965

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

How do you want replace all money with SC ?

Quote
Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.

SCs are using Bitcoin as currency.

Quote
Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 03:43:34 PM
 #16966


scipSC can be started today using
a) oracle
b) Federated Peg: oracle & scip-proof

 => "oracle & scip-proof" can be changed into
c) scip-proof when 70% of nodes adopt OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY
Granted, but that is less the issue.
(and BTW SCIP can also deterministically verify what those nodes are running)

In this thread we are sort of assuming that it works, the issue is more about what happens when it works.


At another level "Computational Integrity Verification" is sort of a CompSci holy grail.  Things like "The end of virus", "perfect chip testing", and lots of other breakthroughs will come from this, essentially it hails the end of analog (and there is a whole lot of that in computer engineering)  It is not a small thing.


So in one sense, Bitcoin is the very best thing that it can be applied to and should be first.
However... we have to recognize that it is entirely experimental.  And it does a lot.
It is Robert Oppenheimer level impact on the world of computing.

Not only on the world of computing.  :-) (finance, gov, ...)
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 03:59:46 PM
 #16967

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

How do you want replace all money with SC ?

Quote
Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.

SCs are using Bitcoin as currency.

Quote
Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.

he's just fucking with you... (he was being sarcastic)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 15, 2014, 04:13:15 PM
 #16968

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

How do you want replace all money with SC ?

Quote
Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.

SCs are using Bitcoin as currency.

Quote
Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.

he's just fucking with you... (he was being sarcastic)

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 04:23:13 PM
 #16969


Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

I have no problem. I'll make too !!!!!!!
cypherdoc
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November 15, 2014, 04:55:59 PM
 #16970


Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

I have no problem. I'll make too !!!!!!!

You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 05:09:37 PM
 #16971


You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.

JR's scenario:

 - how about we replace all money with sidechains!   -> fantasy world
 - Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.  -> alt-coin

It has nothing to do with SC.
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 05:18:53 PM
 #16972

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

did you sell your Bitcoins yet?

remember, the inextricable link between BTC and its blockchain is broken, Bitcoin is going to be destroy sooner or later!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Bagatell
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November 15, 2014, 05:27:47 PM
 #16973

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

did you sell your Bitcoins yet?

remember, the inextricable link between BTC and its blockchain is broken, Bitcoin is going to be destroy sooner or later!

You're beginning to sound like Shroomskit and Lamchop.
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 05:35:54 PM
 #16974

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

did you sell your Bitcoins yet?

remember, the inextricable link between BTC and its blockchain is broken, Bitcoin is going to be destroy sooner or later!

You're beginning to sound like Shroomskit and Lamchop.

Funny I thought the same of cypherdoc.

I've been presenting arguments for my case absent of trolling for the past few weeks but it seems cypherdoc does not want to address them or has no answer for them. At this point, I'm just enjoying feeding his paranoia.

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.

Looks at this :
who really needs absolute anonymity?  sure, for illegal stuff.  but most of us don't do that.

i believe the vast majority of BTC holders value anonymity.  therefore perfect anonymity should be better than pseudonymity.

since that's the case, why wouldn't you then move ALL your BTC into scBTC?

Or this

fine.  LET THEM USE FEDERATED SERVERS.  are you deaf?  that won't hurt Bitcoin like the SPVproof.

this breaks the legitimate inextricable link btwn the currency unit BTC and its blockchain (MC). that, in itself, will destroy Bitcoin.

This gentleman is very, very confused.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
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November 15, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
 #16975


You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.

JR's scenario:

 - how about we replace all money with sidechains!   -> fantasy world
 - Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.  -> alt-coin

It has nothing to do with SC.

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

You brought up this idea of using "proof of protein folding" in some kind of convoluted SC scheme,and I was trying to illustrate why, instead inventing new blockchains, it might just be easier and more efficient to just pay people for what you want them to do directly.

You know, just like every other product and service in the economy,

Also, the last bit was a quote from here:

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/appcoins-are-snake-oil/
tvbcof
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November 15, 2014, 06:25:42 PM
 #16976


Funny I thought the same of cypherdoc.

I've been presenting arguments for my case absent of trolling for the past few weeks but it seems cypherdoc does not want to address them or has no answer for them. At this point, I'm just enjoying feeding his paranoia.

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.

Looks at this :
who really needs absolute anonymity?  sure, for illegal stuff.  but most of us don't do that.

i believe the vast majority of BTC holders value anonymity.  therefore perfect anonymity should be better than pseudonymity.

since that's the case, why wouldn't you then move ALL your BTC into scBTC?

Or this

fine.  LET THEM USE FEDERATED SERVERS.  are you deaf?  that won't hurt Bitcoin like the SPVproof.

this breaks the legitimate inextricable link btwn the currency unit BTC and its blockchain (MC). that, in itself, will destroy Bitcoin.

This gentleman is very, very confused.

LOL!

The guy has unleashed a fudslide of biblical proportion on this issue.  He probably thought it would just bury everyone no realizing that if one person took the time to pick through the muck it would do great damage to his strategy.


tim2020
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November 15, 2014, 06:28:46 PM
 #16977

This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?
tvbcof
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November 15, 2014, 06:36:46 PM
 #16978

This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Probably because some people became invested (financially and/or emotionally) in various strategies which were predicated on certain expectations of how Bitcoin would overcome it's rather obvious weaknesses and did not anticipate sidechains as being one of them.

In this respect sidechains are every bit as much of a 'disruptive technology' to Bitcoin as Bitcoin is to the mainstream debt-based monetary system.  Naturally some people will lose, but they won't be going down without a fight.


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November 15, 2014, 06:37:27 PM
 #16979

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.
 

Anyone spending this much energy must have some financial interest, you're admitted to owning just pennies worth of Bitcoin, why are you here?


my job is to confront trolls who spread FUD and misinformation. I'd say I did a pretty good job with you

define: "job" in that statement?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 06:54:06 PM
 #16980

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.
 

Anyone spending this much energy must have some financial interest, you're admitted to owning just pennies worth of Bitcoin, why are you here?


my job is to confront trolls who spread FUD and misinformation. I'd say I did a pretty good job with you

define: "job" in that statement?

Care to pull up the inexistent post where I admit to only owning pennies worth of Bitcoin? If you can't find it surely you'll find those where I've stated that 95% of my net worth is in Bitcoin.

So in a sense, you are right,  this is exactly what I am doing : protecting my financial interest from FUD and misinformation spread by guys like cypherdoc.

Even though I can clearly see through his BS some other, more impressionable, readers/lurkers might make decisions that could hurt my investment based on his FUD.

Therefore I make it my duty to call him and everyone else on their BS to the extent of my capabilities & knowledge. I'm not always right, but at least the onlookers can consider both side of the...coin  Wink

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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