Bitcoin Forum
August 17, 2017, 09:56:15 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.14.2  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 [867] 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1951232 times)
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:40:09 PM
 #17321

...
In one of the previous examples we had:

 MC
 |   \
SC1 SC3
 |   /
SC2

Where SC1 had rogue devs/miners who inflated it with new assets or subverted the proofs so no SC2 would convert back to SC1 and so convertibility was lost.
Subsequently SC3 is set up to restore convertibility because SC2 had such utility that it kept going and new owner folks wanted to (somewhat) regain the convertibility aspects (including new issuance from SPV).

So now you have SC2 with some BTC convertible back to MC and some not.


Some people who put their confidence in something (sc2) backed by a corrupt value backing (sc1) would lose.  Sidechains are not some magic bullet which nullifies end-user stupidity and provider scammery.  It just makes it possible for end-users to have an alternative to scammery if they want to put in the effort to do due dilligence.  That alternative is found missing in almost every other financial instrument these days (except arguably physical PMs.)

+1

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1502963775
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1502963775

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1502963775
Reply with quote  #2

1502963775
Report to moderator
1502963775
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1502963775

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1502963775
Reply with quote  #2

1502963775
Report to moderator
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:42:42 PM
 #17322

[quote author=Peter R link=topic=68655.msg9573468#msg9573468 date=1416252764
But I'm not sure that these arguments are strong enough to show that SPV sidechains hurt Bitcoin's sound-money property.  In my opinion, this is only possible in Case #3, but, like Erdogan implied, it might be highly unlikely (impossible?) for a sidechain to obtain the status of #3. 

The problem for scBTC in case #3, is that it first will have to survive a period with less freefloating value, so it will have a problem achiveing the status of #3.



which brings up my problem with Blockstream.

they have a fiduciary duty aka financial incentive to make it happen regardless.  and given their power positions in core dev, they may be able to make it happen.
[/quote]

That's incorrect.

Their fiduciary duty is to create the infrastructure. They do not guarantee adoption. This adoption is dependent on the value proposition their client come up with. There will be plenty valuable enough to attract users.

My bet is inflationary schemes supported by mischievous interests will barely make a dent in BTC.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:44:23 PM
 #17323

an analogy to the self contained financial system that i envision with Bitcoin is gold.

there is a finite amount of gold circulating throughout the world.  it's stored, it's used, it's supply is theoretically immutable.  none of it gets "transformed" to other speculative assets at any time.  and for 5000 yrs it served as the basis for a sound money system. 

by promoting the transformation of BTC units over to "different less secure ledgers" which now seems to be accepted here by even brg444, how is Bitcoins Sound Money function sustained?

There are plenty of examples of gold "side chains".  The GLD ETF derives its value from gold.  Egold once derived its value from gold.  In fact anyone who owns any kind of note that is redeemable for gold is participating in a gold "side chain".  Perhaps the most infamous example is the USD which has also lost its peg to gold.  These pegs were eventually lost because of central points of failure, but the physical gold remained unharmed.  Bitcoin distributes these central points of failure and if side chains fail, the bitcoin will remain.  Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

the bitcoin can be lost in a SC failure though.  i think confidence is eroded in the entire system certainly in the case of those owners who lose their scBTC.

Bitcoin can also be locked in for a length of time by the miners, remember merge mining can mine empty blocks on the SideChain locking it without forfeiting there mining revenue earned on other SideChains or Bitcoin. 

Which implies they forfeit the mining revenue of the chain they are attacking. If users decide that this chain is valuable to them it is in the miners best interest to preserve their economic incentives

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:45:47 PM
 #17324

But I'm not sure that these arguments are strong enough to show that SPV sidechains hurt Bitcoin's sound-money property.  In my opinion, this is only possible in Case #3, but, like Erdogan implied, it might be highly unlikely (impossible?) for a sidechain to obtain the status of #3. 

The problem for scBTC in case #3, is that it first will have to survive a period with less freefloating value, so it will have a problem achiveing the status of #3.

Others would claim that a #3 is ultimately inevitable due to the ossification of Bitcoin.
At some point there would become a new SC that would be better in every way for everyone than Bitcoin and those that can exit do when then can do so.

In this case, is it not preferable that the "better" chain is an SPVP chain?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:46:52 PM
 #17325


There are plenty of examples of gold "side chains".  The GLD ETF derives its value from gold.  Egold once derived its value from gold.  In fact anyone who owns any kind of note that is redeemable for gold is participating in a gold "side chain".  Perhaps the most infamous example is the USD which has also lost its peg to gold.  These pegs were eventually lost because of central points of failure, but the physical gold remained unharmed.  Bitcoin distributes these central points of failure and if side chains fail, the bitcoin will remain.  Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i don't necessarily agree with this.  those ETF's and egold had to hold physical gold which "backs" those derivatives, whereas with SC's, BTC units are "transformed" into something totally different and then ride on less secure SC's.  these speculative assets i think are worth less than the original BTC.  if they get hacked or fail, those BTC are locked up forever, which i don't think necessarily translates into higher value for the rest of us still on MC.  it could erode confidence.



Just because GLD is supposed to be backed by gold doesn't mean that it is.  At least with bitcoin we can have cryptographic proof that side chains are backed by a certain amount of bitcoin.  I see these gold derivatives as precedent for side chains just as gold was precedent for bitcoin. 

Precisely

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:50:04 PM
 #17326

Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i think this is where we agree; if we are going to use SC's at all.  of course, there's always OT as well.

If you choose to use OT or Federated servers this is the decision that you are making :


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:53:52 PM
 #17327


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


Shouldn't you then believe that the severing of 2-way peg would result in a scBTC value of zero in all cases?  I think I've convincingly shown that this would not always be the case.  Therefore, a % of the value must actually be stored on the sidechain's ledger.  

If 2wp does not work then pegged SC does not work.  If we are talking about pegged sidechains then 2wp MUST be working.

or maybe you want to talk about "pegged SC are not possible to create ?" => let's talk about why it is not possible to create functional 2wp SC

SC does not have any value -> until BTC are locked(escrowed) to fund this SC

how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.

It is not a matter of resources but economic incentives. You are right : as I've mentioned repeatedly we can expect that only a certain numbers of sidechains be secured through MM and use the SPVP model.

For many applications, the federated model is preferable

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:56:17 PM
 #17328

Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i think this is where we agree; if we are going to use SC's at all.  of course, there's always OT as well.

Yes.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The reason SPVP is proposed is because there are applications that are not implementable on BTC mainchain but still necessitate an equivalent level of decentralization and security.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 10:59:01 PM
 #17329

who needs the MC to achieve all these services?  to me, Bitoin is Money and only money.  all these services can be created and just adopt BTC as their currency unit of exchange.  this would be how to drive the price of BTC much higher.

 Roll Eyes

How exactly do you propose they do this.

Consider the two very desirable applications of privacy and instant confirmations. These are sidechains that operate a money function. Would you prefer that these be as equally decentralized and secure as Bitcoin or that they be conferred to a federation of servers/oracles/OT?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 11:01:06 PM
 #17330


Sidechains introduce a huge marginal value-add by providing services which people need and cannot achieve on the main chain.  My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that this will easily account for any increase in value associated with scBTC on an ecosystem level and some of the value will probably back-wash into Bitcoin itself in a big way.


I agree that sidechains could introduce a "value-add by providing services which people need and cannot achieve on the main chain" and that this could increase demand to hold BTC.  

What I'm not convinced of is whether the value-add is "huge" or not, and whether providing support for SPV sidechains at the protocol level is worth the existential risk it creates.  

Let's see what happens with federated sidechains first...  

Is there not considerable value in more decentralization of our infrastructures?


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
November 17, 2014, 11:01:45 PM
 #17331

The reason SPVP is proposed is because there are applications that are not implementable on BTC mainchain but still necessitate an equivalent level of decentralization and security.
Can they really accomplish an equivalent level of security compared to the main chain?

Do you know of anyone willing to go on record making that claim?
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 11:06:11 PM
 #17332

Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i think this is where we agree; if we are going to use SC's at all.  of course, there's always OT as well.

Yes.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bingo!  we have a Winner!

If you look at Peter R's three scenarios and my comments (I hoped someone else would point this out...) there is not really that much difference between sidechains and altcoins. The sidechains' promoters just want to get a flying start. In my opinion, they won't. The economics does not support it.

 Huh

There is absolutely a most fundamental difference. Sidechains, unlike altcoins, derive their value and their scarcity from the Bitcoin mainchain. This enables users to claim a 1:1 stake in any sidechain they are interested in, unlike with altcoins

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 11:11:00 PM
 #17333

The reason SPVP is proposed is because there are applications that are not implementable on BTC mainchain but still necessitate an equivalent level of decentralization and security.
Can they really accomplish an equivalent level of security compared to the main chain?

Do you know of anyone willing to go on record making that claim?

This is pretty much how I understand it :



I don't believe you can secure sidechains at the exact same level as the mainchain simply because that would require all nodes to recognize this sidechain.

My opinion is that by securing the work of all miners to validate a sidechain you make it much more decentralized and secure than any other federated options.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
November 17, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
 #17334

The reason SPVP is proposed is because there are applications that are not implementable on BTC mainchain but still necessitate an equivalent level of decentralization and security.
Can they really accomplish an equivalent level of security compared to the main chain?[/quote]

I don't believe you can secure sidechains at the exact same level as the mainchain simply because that would require all nodes to recognize this sidechain.

My opinion is that by securing the work of all miners to validate a sidechain you make it much more decentralized and secure than any other federated options.

Get your story straight.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 11:19:27 PM
 #17335

The reason SPVP is proposed is because there are applications that are not implementable on BTC mainchain but still necessitate an equivalent level of decentralization and security.
Can they really accomplish an equivalent level of security compared to the main chain?

I don't believe you can secure sidechains at the exact same level as the mainchain simply because that would require all nodes to recognize this sidechain.

My opinion is that by securing the work of all miners to validate a sidechain you make it much more decentralized and secure than any other federated options.

Get your story straight.
[/quote]

 Roll Eyes

Is this all you have to say. Does that make my argument any less true?

You are done with you driveby for now?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
November 17, 2014, 11:32:46 PM
 #17336

Does that make my argument any less true?
You aren't making any arguments.

You're inventing stories on the fly, without even bothering to maintain a pretense of consistency from post to post.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 11:36:03 PM
 #17337

Does that make my argument any less true?
You aren't making any arguments.

You're inventing stories on the fly, without even bothering to maintain a pretense of consistency from post to post.

Do you not recognize there are applications that demand more decentralization than federation/oracles/OT can provide?

Would you trust any lesser decentralized schemes with money functions of Bitcoin that are not supported by the mainchain?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
STT
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456


¯\_(ツ)_/¯


View Profile WWW
November 17, 2014, 11:40:42 PM
 #17338

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/islamic-state-finances-how-terror-groups-move-money-E1QGs4SPTaaMkUzcjjMi~g.html


Islamic state using gold (silver, copper also) as their 'national' currency but also bitcoin allegedly.      US spec ops investigating ways to disrupt payments ?
I dont get how they even still exist, yet alone operate actual economies out there in the desert.  Not that we cant reach them surely
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 11:41:13 PM
 #17339


Do you not recognize there are applications that demand more decentralization than federation/oracles/OT can provide?

Would you trust any lesser decentralized schemes with money functions of Bitcoin that are not supported by the mainchain?

Please STFU this used to be a nice thread to follow.

I agree, that is until cypherdoc polluted it with his FUD and misinformation.

By the way there's at least 4 pages of discussion on sidechains that were created today without any of my participation so maybe you should stay away for awhile if you don't care to discuss them.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
November 17, 2014, 11:42:11 PM
 #17340

Do you not recognize there are applications that demand more decentralization than federation/oracles/OT can provide?

Would you trust any lesser decentralized schemes with money functions of Bitcoin that are not supported by the mainchain?
That's not the point.

You started out selling sidechains as an "equivalent level of decentralization and security" compared to the main chain.

Are they or are they not capable of providing that?
Pages: « 1 ... 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 [867] 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!