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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1939237 times)
brg444
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November 17, 2014, 11:09:09 AM
 #17221

but sidechains are not competitors  Huh
The same value can not be held simultaneously in the main chain and in a side chain.

But the value of the sidechain is derived from the mainchain and so the scarcity and ledger is respected.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 17, 2014, 01:54:42 PM
 #17222

but sidechains are not competitors  Huh
The same value can not be held simultaneously in the main chain and in a side chain.

But the value of the sidechain is derived from the mainchain and so the scarcity and ledger is respected.
The SC and MC compete for some things and cooperate on others.

The value of the sidechain is derived from the market price, which ought to include both its convertibility to main chain + the side chain's utility.
&
To the extent the main chain is locked in side chains, it can be expected to reduce the liquidity of the main chain, increasing its volatility, and also the incentive to 51% it.

Awareness of the positive and negative nuances will make for better investors.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 17, 2014, 01:59:44 PM
 #17223

TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

TC in this statement is TruthCoin.

brg444 This guy has a much better take on what SC are than you.
He understand the mining incentives that make Bitcoin, the only scam he's pulling is capitalizing on the inflation effect offered by the idea of SC's, someone who gets mining like this and looks for a win win without addressing the effect the proposed protocol change will have on mining incentives is a businessman, he isn't the scanner you think he is. We'll see thousand of these   Wink

brg444 read the article you may learn something please address all criticism on the appropriate blog, feel free to invite my input over there if you like.

http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/



Thanks for the reference. The relevant part which applies to our SC's discussion:

Individuals bought coins, or mining equipment, with a certain expectation. As more and more individuals do this, it becomes harder and harder for cryptocoin-competitors to compete with the network-effect of money unless they can change the rules.

Bolded part mine.

but sidechains are not competitors  Huh

Because the SC's offer alternative assets, and there are only a fixed supply of BTC from which to attract, SC's will compete to attract those BTC.  Just likeTC  plans to do.
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November 17, 2014, 03:51:31 PM
 #17224

but sidechains are not competitors  Huh
The same value can not be held simultaneously in the main chain and in a side chain.

But the value of the sidechain is derived from the mainchain and so the scarcity and ledger is respected.
This is a dud answer that illustrates a lack of understanding. Value is subjective one only makes value judgments, one choose to where value is greatest. It's not just scarcity that makes Bitcoin valuable, we know this because equal Altcoins with the same features can have no value.

It's the network that is created by incentive structure that creates bitcoins value. SideChain change the incentive structure.

In your ignorance you agree but you don't prove that one can create economic energy from nothing you assume that to be true. The value that is Bitcoin isn't about to die (it's FUD to say SC "are the last hope"), it's dependent on it's existing incentive structure to grow, investment in infrastructure or wealth.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 17, 2014, 04:30:37 PM
 #17225

http://counterparty.io/news/counterparty-recreates-ethereums-smart-contract-platform-on-bitcoin/

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November 17, 2014, 05:26:28 PM
 #17226

Blockstream's motto: "Can't be evil" - cypher will have a field day with this Grin
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November 17, 2014, 05:35:59 PM
 #17227

whenever we get proposals to "fix Bitcoin" as we are currently getting with SC's, it's often helpful to step back to before the proposal to help reassess where we actually.  below is a talk by Daniel Krawiscz, whose views very much correspond to mine.  listen carefully and realize everything is just fine and there is nothing to panic about by making rash changes to the protocol.  other points that struck me in this talk are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKRH_zxpdjM

1.  OT appears to be a better federated system in that it doesn't require another currency and doesn't require an spvp change to the protocol which would "siphon off" BTC value from its blockchain.
2.  he, and Balaji Srinivasan here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A, both advocate "exiting the system" principles if you are dissatisfied with your current existing fiat system.  exiting the current system implies that there is another new and secure system to which you can flee which will protect you.  since this is high risk, this system would have to be a Self Contained Financial System that is secure, reliable, and firewalled off from outside intervention.  ideally, it would be a public good, not subject to improprieties or vested interests that might be motivated to "profit" off said system.  this system, as it currently and already stands, is Bitcoin.  its transactional units are inextricably linked to its blockchain for maximum impenetrable security.
3.  i think the reason you're hearing such common calls for the "blockchain" as distinct and removed from its "currency unit" is b/c the outside public intuitively realizes that if left as is, Bitcoin fundamentally disrupts the current fiat system.  they can conceptually "understand" a blockchain as new "tech" while rejecting the currency unit.  it also allows them to continue to "resist" buying a seat at the table by using cold hard cash or trading something of great value for BTC.  if you can subvert the system by changing the rules, ie the protocol, to break the inextricable link, then you can "attract" value out of the Bitcoin system and convert or transform that value into all manner of inflationary, speculative assets.  this is what the spvp or 2wp does.  we don't want that.

i view the spvp as a breach in that system, like a leaky valve or offramp thru which real value can be siphoned off and transformed into all manner of speculative assets.  this is a problem.  guys like brg444 have already shown their cards that Bitcoin "is broken" and if you just insert this "funnel" or 2wp (spvp) into the walls of what now is an impenetrable system, it will make it "better".  i think this is fundamentally wrong and is a major flaw in the Blockstream WP.  the mere insertion of this funnel will break Bitcoin's Sound Money principles as it allows an offramp into all manner of insecure, alternative ledger systems (fake blockchains).  if we can know ahead of time that it "might" be a problem, why insert it?  it's not enough to say, "let's just let them put it in and see what happens".  if they're wrong, and i am right, it will destroy the system as it erodes confidence that we indeed have a secure firewalled off Bitcoin not subject to for-profit opportunities and structural weakness.
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November 17, 2014, 05:44:10 PM
 #17228

Its sad but true that I think OT never really took off because it couldn't be used as a get rich scheme or P&D Sad The OT client for grandma offered what a 500btc bounty or something crazy? But noone ever did it and I don't think those bounty awarders are still around to offer that kinda money for the nice client... otherwise I'd prob take a stab at it.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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November 17, 2014, 05:50:39 PM
 #17229

TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

TC in this statement is TruthCoin.

brg444 This guy has a much better take on what SC are than you.
He understand the mining incentives that make Bitcoin, the only scam he's pulling is capitalizing on the inflation effect offered by the idea of SC's, someone who gets mining like this and looks for a win win without addressing the effect the proposed protocol change will have on mining incentives is a businessman, he isn't the scanner you think he is. We'll see thousand of these   Wink

brg444 read the article you may learn something please address all criticism on the appropriate blog, feel free to invite my input over there if you like.

http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/



Well, turns out this guy is a pretty smart fellow. It would be nice to have HIS input on sidechains. Every articles on his blog so far are very interesting and full of insights.



Prediction markets are the next big thing that the blockchain can offer, analogous to upending the financial system, prediction markets will upset the knowledge markets and services. Actually we are working with him to maybe collaborate to come up with a good implementation of prediction markets using Syscoin which is merged-mined... preliminary work is being done (https://github.com/syscoin/syscoin/commit/8dffafb59f4e0b67141c22a035500a3b714af3e5)

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
Adrian-x
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November 17, 2014, 06:06:34 PM
 #17230

Blockstream's motto: "Can't be evil" - cypher will have a field day with this Grin

even Google's Eric Schmidt is getting in on the action. 

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/11/17/linked-in-sun-microsystems-founders-lead-big-bet-on-bitcoin-innovation/

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 17, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
 #17231

whenever we get proposals to "fix Bitcoin" as we are currently getting with SC's, it's often helpful to step back to before the proposal to help reassess where we actually.  below is a talk by Daniel Krawiscz, whose views very much correspond to mine.  listen carefully and realize everything is just fine and there is nothing to panic about by making rash changes to the protocol.  other points that struck me in this talk are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKRH_zxpdjM

1.  OT appears to be a better federated system in that it doesn't require another currency and doesn't require an spvp change to the protocol which would "siphon off" BTC value from its blockchain.
2.  he, and Balaji Srinivasan here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A, both advocate "exiting the system" principles if you are dissatisfied with your current existing fiat system.  exiting the current system implies that there is another new and secure system to which you can flee which will protect you.  since this is high risk, this system would have to be a Self Contained Financial System that is secure, reliable, and firewalled off from outside intervention.  ideally, it would be a public good, not subject to improprieties or vested interests that might be motivated to "profit" off said system.  this system, as it currently and already stands, is Bitcoin.  its transactional units are inextricably linked to its blockchain for maximum impenetrable security.
3.  i think the reason you're hearing such common calls for the "blockchain" as distinct and removed from its "currency unit" is b/c the outside public intuitively realizes that if left as is, Bitcoin fundamentally disrupts the current fiat system.  they can conceptually "understand" a blockchain as new "tech" while rejecting the currency unit.  it also allows them to continue to "resist" buying a seat at the table by using cold hard cash or trading something of great value for BTC.  if you can subvert the system by changing the rules, ie the protocol, to break the inextricable link, then you can "attract" value out of the Bitcoin system and convert or transform that value into all manner of inflationary, speculative assets.  this is what the spvp or 2wp does.  we don't want that.

i view the spvp as a breach in that system, like a leaky valve or offramp thru which real value can be siphoned off and transformed into all manner of speculative assets.  this is a problem.  guys like brg444 have already shown their cards that Bitcoin "is broken" and if you just insert this "funnel" or 2wp (spvp) into the walls of what now is an impenetrable system, it will make it "better".  i think this is fundamentally wrong and is a major flaw in the Blockstream WP.  the mere insertion of this funnel will break Bitcoin's Sound Money principles as it allows an offramp into all manner of insecure, alternative ledger systems (fake blockchains).  if we can know ahead of time that it "might" be a problem, why insert it?  it's not enough to say, "let's just let them put it in and see what happens".  if they're wrong, and i am right, it will destroy the system as it erodes confidence that we indeed have a secure firewalled off Bitcoin not subject to for-profit opportunities and structural weakness.

forgot point #4:

4.  Daniel, back in March when he gave this talk, viewed the core dev system at the time as too centralized.  this was before Blockstream and the WP came out a month ago.  if you agree with him, how does further centralizing the 40% of core devs +3 of the top committers into one for-profit company help, especially when its core business model is to sell SC construction to SC entities all of whom might be unfriendly to Bitcoin proper?
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November 17, 2014, 06:10:01 PM
 #17232

Its sad but true that I think OT never really took off because it couldn't be used as a get rich scheme or P&D Sad The OT client for grandma offered what a 500btc bounty or something crazy? But noone ever did it and I don't think those bounty awarders are still around to offer that kinda money for the nice client... otherwise I'd prob take a stab at it.
i think its going strong, its the best solution not a failed one.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 17, 2014, 06:11:03 PM
 #17233

Blockstream's motto: "Can't be evil" - cypher will have a field day with this Grin

even Google's Eric Schmidt is getting in on the action.  

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/11/17/linked-in-sun-microsystems-founders-lead-big-bet-on-bitcoin-innovation/

you want these guys to "buy in" to the Bitcoin system buy purchasing BTC units which they can then use for their own purposes.  you don't want them to "siphon" value out of Bitcoin by breaking its Sound Money principles by breaking the link btwn the currency unit and its blockchain.

i know you know this but i'm just clarifying how i see these developments.
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November 17, 2014, 06:12:49 PM
 #17234

Its sad but true that I think OT never really took off because it couldn't be used as a get rich scheme or P&D Sad The OT client for grandma offered what a 500btc bounty or something crazy? But noone ever did it and I don't think those bounty awarders are still around to offer that kinda money for the nice client... otherwise I'd prob take a stab at it.
i think its going strong, its the best solution not a failed one.


perhaps this is the break that OT needs as the SC federated server model is forcing all of us to understand and consider such a system as an alternative.
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November 17, 2014, 06:19:46 PM
 #17235

you can see that even Vikram Pandit doesn't get it.  remember, the only reason ppl mine for or use a new alternative currency like Bitcoin is b/c it is a SOV that can't be inflated or transformed by inflationary gvt policies or something like a spvp:

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/wreckage-of-flight-mh17-removed-from-crash-site-NQ~D2zzcSW2oOXBCZFr_2g.html
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November 17, 2014, 06:22:01 PM
 #17236

haha, another Fed auction:

http://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/dpr-bitcoins/
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November 17, 2014, 06:27:19 PM
 #17237


Paging Tim Draper. Excellent dollar-cost-avg opportunity.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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November 17, 2014, 06:30:46 PM
 #17238

you can see that even Vikram Pandit doesn't get it.  remember, the only reason ppl mine for or use a new alternative currency like Bitcoin is b/c it is a SOV that can't be inflated or transformed by inflationary gvt policies or something like a spvp:

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/wreckage-of-flight-mh17-removed-from-crash-site-NQ~D2zzcSW2oOXBCZFr_2g.html
http://www.coindesk.com/ex-citigroup-ceo-vikram-pandit-digital-currencies-spawning-innovation/

(fixed link)

Yeah, here's the indicative quote from Pandit (talking about Coinbase): "It's a wallet for bitcoin, but could be a wallet for 'bityen'. It could be 'bitdollar', it could be 'biteuro' – doesn't matter," said Pandit.

It absolutely DOES matter!

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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November 17, 2014, 06:32:02 PM
 #17239

an analogy to the self contained financial system that i envision with Bitcoin is gold.

there is a finite amount of gold circulating throughout the world.  it's stored, it's used, it's supply is theoretically immutable.  none of it gets "transformed" to other speculative assets at any time.  and for 5000 yrs it served as the basis for a sound money system. 

by promoting the transformation of BTC units over to "different less secure ledgers" which now seems to be accepted here by even brg444, how is Bitcoins Sound Money function sustained?
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November 17, 2014, 06:32:26 PM
 #17240

Blockstream's motto: "Can't be evil" - cypher will have a field day with this Grin

even Google's Eric Schmidt is getting in on the action.  

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/11/17/linked-in-sun-microsystems-founders-lead-big-bet-on-bitcoin-innovation/

you want these guys to "buy in" to the Bitcoin system buy purchasing BTC units which they can then use for their own purposes.  you don't want them to "siphon" value out of Bitcoin by breaking its Sound Money principles by breaking the link btwn the currency unit and its blockchain.

i know you know this but i'm just clarifying how i see these developments.

bang on. also explains the long bull market, metaphorically, VC,s will get to a stage like early mining, at some point its better to invest in BTC than it is to try and make earn it.
the idea isn't to disrupt the economy, its to disrupt the financial system used to run the economy.

Bitcoin is a risk distribution virus, more powerful than any biological weapon, it assimilates and leave a working economy in its wake, all we have to do is protect the DNA that makes it work, punting economic energy into Bitcoin is how it grows.  

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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