Bitcoin Forum
September 21, 2017, 04:07:54 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 [864] 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1977878 times)
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:42:23 PM
 #17261

Peter R, what if scBTC#1, scBTC#2 and scBTC#3 is still same BTC and has equal value in all chains b/c 2wp works ?
Transfering BTC from chain to chain is only "thought experiment". I have never seen or touched Bitcoin -> b/c it is only private key.

I'm just trying to make incremental progress in my understanding by answering the question "on which ledger is the value stored?"  The probability that the 2-way peg is severed is a different discussion. 

I think it's clear that value is stored on both Bitcoin's Ledger and the Sidechain's Ledger.  Erdogan phrased this succinctly:


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.
1506010074
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1506010074

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1506010074
Reply with quote  #2

1506010074
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1506010074
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1506010074

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1506010074
Reply with quote  #2

1506010074
Report to moderator
1506010074
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1506010074

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1506010074
Reply with quote  #2

1506010074
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:43:52 PM
 #17262

Peter R, what if scBTC#1, scBTC#2 and scBTC#3 is still same BTC and has equal value in all chains b/c 2wp works ?
Transfering BTC from chain to chain is only "thought experiment". I have never seen or touched Bitcoin -> b/c it is only private key.

I'm just trying to make incremental progress in my understanding by answering the question "on which ledger is the value stored?"  The probability that the 2-way peg is severed is a different discussion. 

I think it's clear that value is stored on both Bitcoin's Ledger and the Sidechain's Ledger.  Erdogan phrased this succinctly:


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


that statement is a contradiction.
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:46:14 PM
 #17263


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


Shouldn't you then believe that the severing of the 2-way peg would result in a scBTC value of zero in all cases?  I think I've convincingly shown that this would not always be the case.  Therefore, a % of the value must actually be stored on the sidechain's ledger.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
HeliKopterBen
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 622



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:50:59 PM
 #17264


There are plenty of examples of gold "side chains".  The GLD ETF derives its value from gold.  Egold once derived its value from gold.  In fact anyone who owns any kind of note that is redeemable for gold is participating in a gold "side chain".  Perhaps the most infamous example is the USD which has also lost its peg to gold.  These pegs were eventually lost because of central points of failure, but the physical gold remained unharmed.  Bitcoin distributes these central points of failure and if side chains fail, the bitcoin will remain.  Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i don't necessarily agree with this.  those ETF's and egold had to hold physical gold which "backs" those derivatives, whereas with SC's, BTC units are "transformed" into something totally different and then ride on less secure SC's.  these speculative assets i think are worth less than the original BTC.  if they get hacked or fail, those BTC are locked up forever, which i don't think necessarily translates into higher value for the rest of us still on MC.  it could erode confidence.



Just because GLD is supposed to be backed by gold doesn't mean that it is.  At least with bitcoin we can have cryptographic proof that side chains are backed by a certain amount of bitcoin.  I see these gold derivatives as precedent for side chains just as gold was precedent for bitcoin. 

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2268


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:52:17 PM
 #17265


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


Shouldn't you then believe that the severing of 2-way peg would result in a scBTC value of zero in all cases?  I think I've convincingly shown that this would not always be the case.  Therefore, a % of the value must actually be stored on the sidechain's ledger.  

Sidechains introduce a huge marginal value-add by providing services which people need and cannot achieve on the main chain.  My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that this will easily account for any increase in value associated with scBTC on an ecosystem level and some of the value will probably back-wash into Bitcoin itself in a big way.


Erdogan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:54:10 PM
 #17266


I think this is right. The same using other words: There is a separate value for the scBTC. When the peg is broken, this value is revealed. It also means that while the peg is intact, the holding preference would be with bitcoin in cases #1 and #2, and with scBTC in case #3. This will suppress the usage of scBTC #1 and #2, and may render them less and less liquid.

The problem for scBTC in case #3, is that it first will have to survive a period with less freefloating value, so it will have a problem achiveing the status of #3.

Blockstream are attracting big clients, they want to run entire countries on SideChains, one way to grow it is to do a 1934  Gold Reserve Act  and have everyone convert, they could even do it at favorable rates above current exchange rates. you cant dismiss #3 is the point I'm making.  

I agree it is possible. And better than 100% reserve gold certificates, which may have had a higher value sometimes due to ease of transport. In the case of sidechains, we have provable reserves. So it is possible, but the quality of the sidechain must be really good.


Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:55:48 PM
 #17267


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


Shouldn't you then believe that the severing of 2-way peg would result in a scBTC value of zero in all cases?  I think I've convincingly shown that this would not always be the case.  Therefore, a % of the value must actually be stored on the sidechain's ledger.  

If 2wp does not work then pegged SC does not work.  If we are talking about pegged sidechains then 2wp MUST be working.

or maybe you want to talk about "pegged SC are not possible to create ?" => let's talk about why it is not possible to create functional 2wp SC

SC does not have any value -> until BTC are locked(escrowed) to fund this SC
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 07:56:44 PM
 #17268

Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i think this is where we agree; if we are going to use SC's at all.  of course, there's always OT as well.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:00:23 PM
 #17269


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


Shouldn't you then believe that the severing of 2-way peg would result in a scBTC value of zero in all cases?  I think I've convincingly shown that this would not always be the case.  Therefore, a % of the value must actually be stored on the sidechain's ledger.  

If 2wp does not work then pegged SC does not work.  If we are talking about pegged sidechains then 2wp MUST be working.

or maybe you want to talk about "pegged SC are not possible to create ?" => let's talk about why it is not possible to create functional 2wp SC

SC does not have any value -> until BTC are locked(escrowed) to fund this SC

how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.
HeliKopterBen
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 622



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:01:04 PM
 #17270

Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i think this is where we agree; if we are going to use SC's at all.  of course, there's always OT as well.

Yes.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:03:23 PM
 #17271


I think, that value is always stored in MC. You can only put your bitcoins into "escrow" (lock them in main-chain) and use "value" on side-chain.


Shouldn't you then believe that the severing of 2-way peg would result in a scBTC value of zero in all cases?  I think I've convincingly shown that this would not always be the case.  Therefore, a % of the value must actually be stored on the sidechain's ledger.  

Sidechains introduce a huge marginal value-add by providing services which people need and cannot achieve on the main chain.  My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that this will easily account for any increase in value associated with scBTC on an ecosystem level and some of the value will probably back-wash into Bitcoin itself in a big way.



who needs the MC to achieve all these services?  to me, Bitoin is Money and only money.  all these services can be created and just adopt BTC as their currency unit of exchange.  this would be how to drive the price of BTC much higher.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:03:57 PM
 #17272

Of course none of the elemental properties of gold were changed to create gold "side chains" and that is why we should go the federated route with bitcoin.

i think this is where we agree; if we are going to use SC's at all.  of course, there's always OT as well.

Yes.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bingo!  we have a Winner!
sidhujag
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1582


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:06:48 PM
 #17273

Haven't heard anyone talk about it but on here.. so I don't consider that strong. A simple gui was needed from grandma that couldn't be done in 3 years of trying? Is that strong software development to you?
That you don't understand the problem domain is more a reflection on you than on OT.

Don't know how you jump to that conclusion but sure... it must be SOOO complicated that it takes longer to do especially since my premise is probably playing out that there is no financial incentive to do so other than the gigantic bounty that noone will be paying out.

I've got 10+ years of professional software development under my belt so I highly doubt you know what you are talking about.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:07:34 PM
 #17274


Sidechains introduce a huge marginal value-add by providing services which people need and cannot achieve on the main chain.  My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that this will easily account for any increase in value associated with scBTC on an ecosystem level and some of the value will probably back-wash into Bitcoin itself in a big way.


I agree that sidechains could introduce a "value-add by providing services which people need and cannot achieve on the main chain" and that this could increase demand to hold BTC.  

What I'm not convinced of is whether the value-add is "huge" or not, and whether providing support for SPV sidechains at the protocol level is worth the existential risk it creates.  

Let's see what happens with federated sidechains first...  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2268


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:10:04 PM
 #17275


how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.

Note that Bitcoin itself could be supported with one CPU miner provided that it is not attacked.

As I've mentioned before, trying to out-run the threat of potential mining attack is as futile as a hamster running on a wheel.  Successful sidechains will almost certainly need to evolve other protection modes than simplistic gross sha256 hashing power.  The best hope for Bitcoin to mitigate the inevitable reality that mining becomes unprofitable is that sidechains offer money-making opportunities for miners which are more lucrative than attacking Bitcoin itself.


Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:11:24 PM
 #17276

how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.

:-) maybe you can re-read this thread (last 300 pages)

 -  (hint) ... we can use oracles. => useful oracle is TIMESTAMP server => it is possible to use Bitcoin as TIMESTAMP server .. (counterparty uses already)

 - there are more solutions what does not require MM

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
 #17277

how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.

:-) maybe you can re-read this thread (last 300 pages)

 -  (hint) ... we can use oracles. => useful oracle is TIMESTAMP server => it is possible to use Bitcoin as TIMESTAMP server .. (counterparty uses already)

 - there are more solutions what does not require MM



lol, you don't think i've talked already about federated servers about 100x now?
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:20:49 PM
 #17278


how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.

Note that Bitcoin itself could be supported with one CPU miner provided that it is not attacked.

As I've mentioned before, trying to out-run the threat of potential mining attack is as futile as a hamster running on a wheel.  Successful sidechains will almost certainly need to evolve other protection modes than simplistic gross sha256 hashing power.  The best hope for Bitcoin to mitigate the inevitable reality that mining becomes unprofitable is that sidechains offer money-making opportunities for miners which are more lucrative than attacking Bitcoin itself.



wow, i didn't think our view of mining diverged so greatly.  POW is the only solution, imo, and we've certainly seen no evidence that any entity is willing to take the gamble to attack Bitcoin.

if we don't screw it up, we can expect tx volumes and fees to continuing setting new highs, just like we're seeing now which will replace block rewards.

but we need outsiders to buy BTC.
thezerg
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:23:57 PM
 #17279

The same value can not be held simultaneously in the main chain and in a side chain.

But the value of the sidechain is derived from the mainchain and so the scarcity and ledger is respected.

This is a very interesting theoretical question: "where is the value stored for a sidechain?"  

blah blah blah

Wow, you can describe all that in one line:  The price change will be proportional to the flow derivative.  

In other words, if BTC was moving (and would have continued to move) into the sidechain, the SC price when "broken" will rise.  If BTC is moving out of the sidechain the price will fall.

If you are still confused think about modelling it.  You would best model this by creating "value" as an immaterial quantity.  Each chain HAS a value (essentially a market cap, which is price * quantity), based on its usefulness.  If 2 chains are pegged, changes to the value cannot be expressed in price, so quantity must change -- that is BTC is transmuted from one chain to another.  If 2 chains are not pegged, changes to the value cannot be expressed by moving quantity so price must change.  This idea is fundamental; it applies to all commodities and products where you can transform one to another.



the whole point that Peter R is trying to make is that with SC's, value gets "shared" btwn MC and all SC's.  with the potential of being "severed" or "fragmented".  

we don't want that with Bitcoin.  we want it ALL on the mainchain.  we want all outsiders to be forced to "buy in" to BTC for their seat at the table.

who here wants to share value with Truthcoin?



Cypherdoc your reasoning is completely flawed.  First of all, I know that you aren't an engineer, but you still you should be able to understand  that it CANT be ALL on the mainchain.  There are diametrically opposed requirements.  Like anonymity vs. public spending accountability.  Like handling vast numbers of txns per second vs. keeping all transactions forever.  Like blockchain spam vs. document timestamping.  There are plenty of things with diametrically opposed requirements in life, like sleeping (darkness) and reading a book (bright light); its unrealistic to imagine no 2 applications will emerge in a space which covers the entire concept of economic activity.

Why have all prior altcoins failed?  Simply because they're all essentially the same.  Different POW?  Come on, what end user cares?  Bitcoin 2.0 (assets)?  Colored coins is good enough, but the market is not mature enough for anyone to care right now.  

You may argue that there will never emerge a use case that is both compelling and that Bitcoin cannot handle.  Ok in that case there will be no sidechains, because Metcalf's law, etc and so the functionality will simply sit unused, and eventually be deprecated.  There is no drawback to this.

But if a use case DOES emerge, the only way to pull that value into Bitcoin is via sidechains -- because with a sidechain the Bitcoin 21million scarcity token can be applied to that use case.

You need to contemplate what you cannot contemplate, not make decisions only based on what you know.

So the ONLY way to get "all outsiders to be forced to "buy in" to BTC for their seat at the table" is via sidechains.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204



View Profile
November 17, 2014, 08:24:31 PM
 #17280

how is it even possible to have thousands of spvp SC's when there are not enough resources to MM all of them?  and even then, they're not secure.

:-) maybe you can re-read this thread (last 300 pages)

 -  (hint) ... we can use oracles. => useful oracle is TIMESTAMP server => it is possible to use Bitcoin as TIMESTAMP server .. (counterparty uses already)

 - there are more solutions what does not require MM



lol, you don't think i've talked already about federated servers about 100x now?

Is TIMESTAMP server(Bitcoin) the federated server ? (hint => NOT)
Pages: « 1 ... 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 [864] 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!