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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1977293 times)
justusranvier
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November 15, 2014, 03:14:46 PM
 #16941

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking. Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.
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Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 03:30:11 PM
 #16942

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

How do you want replace all money with SC ?

Quote
Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.

SCs are using Bitcoin as currency.

Quote
Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 03:43:34 PM
 #16943


scipSC can be started today using
a) oracle
b) Federated Peg: oracle & scip-proof

 => "oracle & scip-proof" can be changed into
c) scip-proof when 70% of nodes adopt OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY
Granted, but that is less the issue.
(and BTW SCIP can also deterministically verify what those nodes are running)

In this thread we are sort of assuming that it works, the issue is more about what happens when it works.


At another level "Computational Integrity Verification" is sort of a CompSci holy grail.  Things like "The end of virus", "perfect chip testing", and lots of other breakthroughs will come from this, essentially it hails the end of analog (and there is a whole lot of that in computer engineering)  It is not a small thing.


So in one sense, Bitcoin is the very best thing that it can be applied to and should be first.
However... we have to recognize that it is entirely experimental.  And it does a lot.
It is Robert Oppenheimer level impact on the world of computing.

Not only on the world of computing.  :-) (finance, gov, ...)
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 03:59:46 PM
 #16944

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

How do you want replace all money with SC ?

Quote
Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.

SCs are using Bitcoin as currency.

Quote
Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.

he's just fucking with you... (he was being sarcastic)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 15, 2014, 04:13:15 PM
 #16945

1. I'll fund SC.
2. You will Protein folding me "data"  
3. then you will be able to withdraw BTC from SC.
I have a much better idea - how about we replace all money with sidechains!

How do you want replace all money with SC ?

Quote
Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.

SCs are using Bitcoin as currency.

Quote
Then customers pay by using the 2 way peg to buy some sidechain units from the restaurant, and the restaurant will cash out via the 2 way peg to pay their suppliers.

Or, even better, they will do atomic swaps for their own proof of cooking sidechain units for their supplier's proof of delivery sidechains or proof of plumbing sidechains.

This is so much better than just having money.

A whole new world of possibilities is upon is. We could invent the barter system again except improve it by adding trade barriers and a bunch of imaginary extra goods that aren't useful for anything but that people are required to trade with for some reason.

he's just fucking with you... (he was being sarcastic)

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 04:23:13 PM
 #16946


Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

I have no problem. I'll make too !!!!!!!
cypherdoc
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November 15, 2014, 04:55:59 PM
 #16947


Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

I have no problem. I'll make too !!!!!!!

You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 05:09:37 PM
 #16948


You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.

JR's scenario:

 - how about we replace all money with sidechains!   -> fantasy world
 - Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.  -> alt-coin

It has nothing to do with SC.
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 05:18:53 PM
 #16949

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

did you sell your Bitcoins yet?

remember, the inextricable link between BTC and its blockchain is broken, Bitcoin is going to be destroy sooner or later!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Bagatell
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November 15, 2014, 05:27:47 PM
 #16950

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

did you sell your Bitcoins yet?

remember, the inextricable link between BTC and its blockchain is broken, Bitcoin is going to be destroy sooner or later!

You're beginning to sound like Shroomskit and Lamchop.
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 05:35:54 PM
 #16951

Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

did you sell your Bitcoins yet?

remember, the inextricable link between BTC and its blockchain is broken, Bitcoin is going to be destroy sooner or later!

You're beginning to sound like Shroomskit and Lamchop.

Funny I thought the same of cypherdoc.

I've been presenting arguments for my case absent of trolling for the past few weeks but it seems cypherdoc does not want to address them or has no answer for them. At this point, I'm just enjoying feeding his paranoia.

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.

Looks at this :
who really needs absolute anonymity?  sure, for illegal stuff.  but most of us don't do that.

i believe the vast majority of BTC holders value anonymity.  therefore perfect anonymity should be better than pseudonymity.

since that's the case, why wouldn't you then move ALL your BTC into scBTC?

Or this

fine.  LET THEM USE FEDERATED SERVERS.  are you deaf?  that won't hurt Bitcoin like the SPVproof.

this breaks the legitimate inextricable link btwn the currency unit BTC and its blockchain (MC). that, in itself, will destroy Bitcoin.

This gentleman is very, very confused.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
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November 15, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
 #16952


You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.

JR's scenario:

 - how about we replace all money with sidechains!   -> fantasy world
 - Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.  -> alt-coin

It has nothing to do with SC.

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

You brought up this idea of using "proof of protein folding" in some kind of convoluted SC scheme,and I was trying to illustrate why, instead inventing new blockchains, it might just be easier and more efficient to just pay people for what you want them to do directly.

You know, just like every other product and service in the economy,

Also, the last bit was a quote from here:

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/appcoins-are-snake-oil/
tvbcof
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November 15, 2014, 06:25:42 PM
 #16953


Funny I thought the same of cypherdoc.

I've been presenting arguments for my case absent of trolling for the past few weeks but it seems cypherdoc does not want to address them or has no answer for them. At this point, I'm just enjoying feeding his paranoia.

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.

Looks at this :
who really needs absolute anonymity?  sure, for illegal stuff.  but most of us don't do that.

i believe the vast majority of BTC holders value anonymity.  therefore perfect anonymity should be better than pseudonymity.

since that's the case, why wouldn't you then move ALL your BTC into scBTC?

Or this

fine.  LET THEM USE FEDERATED SERVERS.  are you deaf?  that won't hurt Bitcoin like the SPVproof.

this breaks the legitimate inextricable link btwn the currency unit BTC and its blockchain (MC). that, in itself, will destroy Bitcoin.

This gentleman is very, very confused.

LOL!

The guy has unleashed a fudslide of biblical proportion on this issue.  He probably thought it would just bury everyone no realizing that if one person took the time to pick through the muck it would do great damage to his strategy.


tim2020
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November 15, 2014, 06:28:46 PM
 #16954

This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?
tvbcof
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November 15, 2014, 06:36:46 PM
 #16955

This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Probably because some people became invested (financially and/or emotionally) in various strategies which were predicated on certain expectations of how Bitcoin would overcome it's rather obvious weaknesses and did not anticipate sidechains as being one of them.

In this respect sidechains are every bit as much of a 'disruptive technology' to Bitcoin as Bitcoin is to the mainstream debt-based monetary system.  Naturally some people will lose, but they won't be going down without a fight.


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November 15, 2014, 06:37:27 PM
 #16956

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.
 

Anyone spending this much energy must have some financial interest, you're admitted to owning just pennies worth of Bitcoin, why are you here?


my job is to confront trolls who spread FUD and misinformation. I'd say I did a pretty good job with you

define: "job" in that statement?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 06:54:06 PM
 #16957

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.
 

Anyone spending this much energy must have some financial interest, you're admitted to owning just pennies worth of Bitcoin, why are you here?


my job is to confront trolls who spread FUD and misinformation. I'd say I did a pretty good job with you

define: "job" in that statement?

Care to pull up the inexistent post where I admit to only owning pennies worth of Bitcoin? If you can't find it surely you'll find those where I've stated that 95% of my net worth is in Bitcoin.

So in a sense, you are right,  this is exactly what I am doing : protecting my financial interest from FUD and misinformation spread by guys like cypherdoc.

Even though I can clearly see through his BS some other, more impressionable, readers/lurkers might make decisions that could hurt my investment based on his FUD.

Therefore I make it my duty to call him and everyone else on their BS to the extent of my capabilities & knowledge. I'm not always right, but at least the onlookers can consider both side of the...coin  Wink

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 15, 2014, 07:02:19 PM
 #16958

I mean, this guy seriously believes that anyone who cares enough to debunk his FUD and misinformation is somehow tied or working for Blockstream. That is some serious case of paranoid dementia.
 

Anyone spending this much energy must have some financial interest, you're admitted to owning just pennies worth of Bitcoin, why are you here?


my job is to confront trolls who spread FUD and misinformation. I'd say I did a pretty good job with you

define: "job" in that statement?

This is how pitiful this guy is. Either he's lying or he's dirt poor with a nefarious agenda:

95% of my wealth is in BTC.
brg444
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November 15, 2014, 07:06:58 PM
 #16959

This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Here are some of my thoughts on the pros pulled up from a previous post. Maybe someone can provide some summary of reasonable cons that are well argued and based on facts and not speculation. I know there certainly was a couple of these throughout the discussion

Quote
Sidechains enable miners to continue claiming BTC transactions fxs in a future where the Bitcoin blockchain will be unable to accomodate all types or needs of transactions. It incentivizes miners to continue securing the network in the best possible way by insuring their profitability.

It is an improvement on the current situation where transactions are ALREADY tending to be processed off-chain for convenience, speed and utility. Given the absolute existence and growth of demand for transactions types that are not implementable on the Bitcoin sidechain, the exodus of transactions to off-chain schemes is a rational concern going forward.

This is not only true with concern to miners and their transaction fees but also for the integrity of the Bitcoin ledger. Off-chain schemes inherently require additional trust in that the ledger will be preserved. The most likely suspects to inflate Bitcoin in its current state are these off-chain schemes. SPVProof sidechains enables the possibility to ensure the conservation of the ledger on a protocol level. With this we potentially eliminate fractional reserve schemes. If your chain/service/application do not recognize and preserve my stake in the ledger, at the extent that I am not looking to speculate on it,  then you will not have my money and neither will you profit from the ledger's network effect.

Of course, this feature can be changed at the whims of the sidechain creator but it is in the interest of the consensus majority of the network to preserve the value of their investment, no matter the speculative prospects.

....

SPVProof sidechains, combined with merged-mining, enables miners to accomodate different chains with their security while reserving the rights to claim the transactions of any chain that gains significant traction. Their services are like a stamp of approval. Inclusion into the circle of chains who are MM by miners in some sort validates the legitimacy of a chain.

It is reasonable to assume a majority of sidechains will be bootstrapped on top of a federated model as it enables more security in the probable scenario where you will not be "backed" by the majority of miners from the start. You'll have to "earn your stripes", especially if you are a private entity/corporation.

The most established and community supported/used chains will end up being nearly as secure as BTC's mainchain simply because their value will command the ultimate security/decentralization

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Odalv
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November 15, 2014, 07:08:20 PM
 #16960


You and brg444 have made that abundantly clear.

JR's scenario:

 - how about we replace all money with sidechains!   -> fantasy world
 - Every restaurant in the world will create their own sidechain currency which they can mine via proof of cooking.  -> alt-coin

It has nothing to do with SC.

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

You brought up this idea of using "proof of protein folding" in some kind of convoluted SC scheme,and I was trying to illustrate why, instead inventing new blockchains, it might just be easier and more efficient to just pay people for what you want them to do directly.

You know, just like every other product and service in the economy,

Also, the last bit was a quote from here:

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/appcoins-are-snake-oil/

I did try to show you simple example:
1. send X BTC into address  what uses OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY   (bitcoin network can verify, how many pfBTC you can withdraw)
2. create pfSC => miner will get  some reward in pfBTC if he mines (empty) block by "protein folding"  (replace with bots building cars)

=>
3. SCIP can by used to create proof  that work has been done. (car was built)
4. OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY can be used to verify that bitcoins can be unlocked.

It looks like sci-fi, but I think it is possible.
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