[XMR] Monero Speculation

[ArticMine]

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No closed source. The key would be produced publicly at a ceremony.
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Using what operating system and firmware?

Of course they will need to convince the public the master key is sound. Or use my idea above of having multiple mixers and timing them out. I believe there is a solution, yet I will agree the current organization of their plans seems legally and structurally flawed.

That is why I say we can transition and beat them. But the technology is real anonymity. If you want real anonymity, you have to find a way to use their technology. Period. (and I have been studying this for a long time)

This does not answer my question which is cut and dry and goes to the heart of the trust issue.

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[ArticMine]

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Please dont feed the trolls guys.

I do not consider TPTB_need_war a troll at all. He raises many issues that result in making Monero a lot stronger.

[TPTB_need_war]

I hate when n00bs make me repeat the same shit over and over and over again. Do you think my time is free?

The masterkey has to be produced in a way that no one knows it. The proposals had been to use a public ceremony and a computer examined by everyone attending, to be sure the masterkey is unknown to anyone.

Note if the masterkey is known, that person can create coins out-of-thin-air, but he can't unmask the anonymity. That is a crucial distinction.

This is why I proposed the idea of using Zerocash as a mixer that eventually times out, so that we can be sure the mixer hasn't created any new coins. Everyone going into the mixer takes the risk that they may not be able to come out of the mixer if the attacker has already created coins. Then we could have many of these mixers in a free market, and users would decide which mixers they trust. Again anonymity is never compromised and the run on the bank can only be a loss to participants, not to the entire ecosystem. I am pretty sure this solves the problem and this is why we can take their open source and beat them.

I am loaded with ideas and designs to solve real problems in crypto. Hopefully some smart devs are going to realize they are better off working with me.

I am aware of that. However, for an stand-alone altcoin creating coins out-of-thin-air is just as detrimental as unmasking the anonymity, because both will likely result in the coin dying.

I already proposed a solution in my prior reply to you that is using their technology in ephemeral mixers, which thus avoids systemic risk and reveals which mixers are compromised (which is likely to be quite rare because participants will learn to judge which masterkeys were generated correctly at ceremony).

Free markets always work best as long as systemic risk is avoided.

RingCT has the same problem. I explained in I believe both the chess thread and my Zero Knowledge Transactions thread. This is another reason I abandoned it (in addition to the inability to get reliable anonymity since it doesn't hide meta-data the way Zerocash/Zcash does).

No it doesn't, because coinbase transactions are mixin = 0 in Monero and therefore you can check if the total supply hasn't been tampered with.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Exemplifies that you are a n00b who should STFU.

If there is a flaw in the cryptography for proving the homomorphic sums (and that is new cryptography), then indeed the attacker can create new value out-of-thin-air and not be detected. I am not going to explain the examples and math again. I already did in the past. Go ask Shen-noether.

You should have paid attention the last time I explained this! You always want to use me but then you don't respect me enough to reward me[1] and then you expect me to correct for your inability to study and remember my posts carefully.

I don't think you should bet against them, because Zerocash has anonymity and nothing else does! The community will make sure it is peer reviewed. We must. You had better start figuring out how to transition and pronto.

I don't say I do. eb3f stated on reddit the following: "Monero uses ring signatures, as you may know, which is battle-tested and well-understood in the cryptography world and in practice". Even with community review it will take a long time to get to this state. I also don't agree with bolded here, but I won't go on a back-and-forth discussion with you over that.

Again my point is that you could have the safest snot in the world, but if people can't use snot for anything, then they are going to put their energies into perfecting and peer reviewing what they need.

Seems you all often miss the points entirely. They fly right over your heads.

I do agree that the new cryptography for Zerocash and zk-snarks is more complex than the new cryptography for homomorphic proof-of-sums for RingCT (or my ZKT), but I don't think that helps given the meta-data problem for RingCT/ZKT/Cryptonote (and every anonymity technology other than Zerocash). What is the point of pursuing a direction which is known to be unreliable and fundamentally flawed (in a way that can never be fixed), when we can pursue a direction that fixes the meta-data problem and is a matter of convincing whether the technology is sound with much peer review. Certainly the peer review can be done over time, and probably incentivized if the technology has a popular application.

I'll let others which are more knowledgeable comment on the metadata.

Please don't tell me I will have to waste more of my time defending an obvious point (for anyone who has the slightest technological understanding).

I am frustrated how much fucking time we waste. You all have been convincing yourselves in your little delusions for years of what ever circle jerk bubbles you prefer to be in (which often include ridiculing/dismissing me).

Edit: correction:

[1] I was rewarded by smooth, jl777, and rpietila. Big thanks to them. Very much so. I am just frustrated because I need a viable financial direction and we need to work smart and find a way that we can make these matters work in our favor. And I am trying to find people who value me and find a way to get it done.

[Hueristic]

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I wanted to talk about serious planning and features to burst out of this nonsensical waste of time that crypto currency is stuck in. I will carry on that work in other more serious threads.

Good because most of your posts in this thread are off topic and a waste of my reading time. I suggest you try to be as considerate of others as you expect them to be of you.

Market looks skittish, may be able to grab some more on the cheap.

[TPTB_need_war]

a waste of my reading time reading

That is either a lie or a serious delusion.

This is precisely what I mean by a circle jerk that does not value the expertise and effort we need to win. In other words, not a meritocracy.

Okay I will leave the thread.

What ever happened  to this?

I didn't introduce the Zerocash discussion. Apparently some in your community think it is relevant to this thread. You blame me for everything because you just want a circle jerk here because you are mining each other. Who knows you are probably behind some scheme to take money from other investors here. There is always a reason that people act irrationally towards truth.

So much for your idealistic delusions about open source and doing it as a community for the common good. That is all bullshit.

Devs who want to change the world and make a lot of money should wake up and join with a better leadership.

Yeah I believe in open source, but it applies in refinement scenarios. Not in design scenarios. Groups are filled with game theory. Design requires focused intent and focused profit.

[ArticMine]

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So much for your idealistic delusions about open source and doing it as a community for the common good. That is all bullshit.

Devs who want to change the world and make a lot of money should wake up and join with a better leadership.

Yeah I believe in open source, but it applies in refinement scenarios. Not in design scenarios. Groups are filled with game theory. Design requires focused intent and focused profit.

So would you use a proprietary operating system that supports DRM to create the master key? Yes or No.

[TPTB_need_war]

ArticMine I moved the technical discussion to other Monero thread. I am leaving this thread, as requested by at least two here.

[aerbax]

The narcissism is palpable.

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Price seems like it's in a decline for a bit...but the activity has increased.  Perhaps we've gained a new group of eyes.  That might explain the spambots over on the Monero reddit as well...

[ArticMine]

ArticMine I moved the technical discussion to other Monero thread. I am leaving this thread, as requested by at least two here.

What thread please? Link. It is clear that you keep avoiding my question and we both know why.

[TPTB_need_war]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1139756.msg13621049#msg13621049

[smooth]

Two off topic messages were deleted. Not that those were the only ones, others may be deleted later if I get to it and the posters haven't deleted their own off topic messages yet. Please try keep the thread on topic and avoid repetitive posts on the same subject that are not topical (clearly the zcash alpha release itself is topical).

The game theory politics of pulling the wool over the eyes and mining each other is palatable.

You confuse a desire for capitalism and meritocracy with your scam here. So then you try to frame my pleas for meritocracy as me being in love with myself. Of fuck, just go on masturbating here.

The narcissism is palpable.

[luigi1111]

1. I hate when n00bs make me repeat the same shit over and over and over again. Do you think my time is free?

2. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Exemplifies that you are a n00b who should STFU.

3. Seems you all often miss the points entirely. They fly right over your heads.

1. You appear to be giving it away. No one seems to be offering to pay you for it, but you're still here. Make of that what you will.

2. This is an extremely rude response, it doesn't matter how right/wrong either of you are. If you were wondering why (some) people are responding with hostility, look no further than examples like this.

3. Not "all" of us regularly read the thread, or your posts, or expect to have technical discussions in a thread labeled "Speculation".

Okay I will leave the thread.

I would encourage you to use the thread for its intended purpose. If you have no desire or use for its intended purpose, then posting your thoughts in a better suited thread seems appropriate.

[smooth]

I would encourage you to use the thread for its intended purpose.

What is the intended purpose?

discussion of Monero trading and price speculation

Some discussion of technological factors influencing price is on topic to the above but when it becomes narrowly focused on specific technical points or repetitive it is best discussed elsewhere (possibly with such discussion linked here if it is seen as of interest).

The rest of the above message was off topic and therefore deleted

I didn't start the discussion about Zerocash, I just added to it substantively.

Well don't worry, seems the forum moderator over at the Zerocash forum has similar difficulties accepting reality:

Other than the prior post, the Zerocash forum has begun removing and censoring my posts. So yet another attempt to pull the wool over speculator eyes and not open source on factual discussion.

So many deluded folks in crypto who get offended when they realize they aren't even close to understanding all the issues I understand about crypto currency, and the ramnifications that their projects are ill-focused and not ready for prime time.

[LucyLovesCrypto]

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Please dont feed the trolls guys.

I do not consider TPTB_need_war a troll at all. He raises many issues that result in making Monero a lot stronger.

Absolutely. Constructive feedback good and bad help bring attention to areas that we should be working on.

[smooth]

One obviously trollish unreadable post removed

I moved the technical discussion to another Monero thread upon the request of some here.

Everybody needs to realize that none of the shit that any of us are working on is going to work out. So enjoy the masturbation while it lasts. Sorry I want to work on widespread solutions or quit. I think you are all wasting your time, wasting my time, and highly deluded. And I think you disrespect when someone is trying his best to lift the outcome. And you perceive this as something other than it is. You try to do my job someday or trying to light a fire under deluded communities. You try dealing with all the endless repetitious n00b crap over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over

Deleted an off topic reply to an off topic post that had already been deleted by its author

So who is crazy? The factual one, or the ones who attack politically?

And then we have smooth censoring my rebuttals to your ad hominem attacks and leaving your ad hominem attacks in the thread.

Which is totally unfair and thus unfortunately straining my former respect of smooth's fairness.

I did not censor any of your posts from my thread. I am not afraid of the truth. Some of you are. And your controlling behavior will just leave in a failed circle jerk echo chamber after all. Mark my word.

[iCEBREAKER]

Surprised the rally tapered so fast, well looks like I gets me some more on the cheap.

Some brave fellow is borrowing my coins in order to sell them to you at a nice discount.

Have I mentioned how much I love Polo's lending market?   

[Hueristic]

Surprised the rally tapered so fast, well looks like I gets me some more on the cheap.

Some brave fellow is borrowing my coins in order to sell them to you at a nice discount.

Have I mentioned how much I love Polo's lending market?   

[iCEBREAKER]

A for-profit coin company, i dont care what they make, iwill never trust them. moreover RingCT will move Monero closer to Zcash

Shut up & take my ZookoCoins!   

[TPTB_need_war]

A for-profit coin company, i dont care what they make, iwill never trust them. moreover RingCT will move Monero closer to Zcash

Shut up & take my ZookoCoins!   

Shut up & take my VaporizedCoins. Totally untraceable and non-existent.

[ArticMine]

Surprised the rally tapered so fast, well looks like I gets me some more on the cheap.

Some brave fellow is borrowing my coins in order to sell them to you at a nice discount.

Have I mentioned how much I love Polo's lending market?   

Shorting XMR in this market can very easily get very ugly very fast.