High Efficiency FPGA & ASIC Bitcoin Mining Devices https://BTCFPGA.com

[PuertoLibre]

Seems like I touched a nerve with the power issue, hmm... I look forward to Tom's clarification.

As for BFL specs, we can discuss that in another thread.  

Point the way, I have read that the FPGA single was plagued not by 1 factor, but by 3.

Performance, Ambient temperature requirements and finally Electrical use.

BFL is "on the record" as having resolved to this date two of the above issues. (Electrical use and Performance per watt)

So the third issue (Ambient operating temperature) is the remaining factor that remains very elusive as a specification.

-----------------------------

The ambient temperature is just as important as the other two. As this determines whether air conditioning is required for the devices in warm environments. (at 1kw ->2kw per hour per air conditioner)

Once the other two (Avalon and bASIC) are further along, they will also have to deal with this very critical issue.

I believe it was stated once that Inaba (BFL_Josh) has stated that he has worked in datacenter environments. Which means he is intimately familiar on why they keep the CRAC units turned on 24x7 for the servers and other hosted devices.

Therefore, I hope that he lets us all know that BFL products will be very comfortable in 90+F environments. Otherwise this may skew the 60watt performance rating of non-air conditioned units.

I will wait for Inaba (BFL_Josh) to open a thread on this topic soon to reassure their customers that this will not be an issue and is in fact a selling point of their hardware.

[TheHarbinger]

[Sitarow]

Personally I am looking forward to the ASIC products from both companies!

[mdude77]

Seems like I touched a nerve with the power issue, hmm... I look forward to Tom's clarification.

As for BFL specs, we can discuss that in another thread. 

Tom: Don't take the bait.

M

[jborkl]

Seems like I touched a nerve with the power issue, hmm... I look forward to Tom's clarification.

As for BFL specs, we can discuss that in another thread.  

Tom: Don't take the bait.

M

I agree - every time tom leaves his thread gets jacked.   Last week noobs jacked it when he was gone and now it's angry jacked thread while he is out of town.

I am going to make a vanity address. 1amnoob.

I will be back in a couple months when it is done generating

Walletpassphrase xxxxx 2months

Be back soon!

[Inaba]

As a customer, I feel that the power issue is a critical issue and I do not feel that it's unreasonable to expect an answer from Tom on the subject.  Every other ASIC outfit has put out power figures, except Tom.  It makes me wonder why he's so reluctant to put out power estimates, especially with the understanding that they may be off by as much as 20%.

But in any case, I would like to know what's considered "competitive." 

[Zeronic]

Seems like I touched a nerve with the power issue, hmm... I look forward to Tom's clarification.

As for BFL specs, we can discuss that in another thread. 

Well *** Specs claimed one thing but REAL WORLD Specs didn't live up to your guessing. I think CP is going to post real world numbers, why bother pushing the issues when they are just around the corner.

[Morblias]

As a customer, I feel that the power issue is a critical issue and I do not feel that it's unreasonable to expect an answer from Tom on the subject.  Every other ASIC outfit has put out power figures, except Tom.  It makes me wonder why he's so reluctant to put out power estimates, especially with the understanding that they may be off by as much as 20%.

But in any case, I would like to know what's considered "competitive."  

He probably doesn't want to make the mistake BFL did with the FPGA singles. Releasing a number and being way off. Don't get me wrong, I like both companies and they both make great products, but if someone doesn't feel comfortable pre-ordering these units without power figures, wait until they are released and then make your decision. That's just the same when BFL originally stated they were releasing ASICs back in July with very little information. A lot of people pre-ordered, but others waited until more information came out. I'm sure Tom will release this information soon. Also don't forget, Tom announced his bASIC about 2 months after BFL stated their ASICs, and BFL only announced the power numbers 2 weeks ago? Give Tom a little time.

It's kind of ironic, the next thread down is "Why is Butterfly Labs so secretive?" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118233.0 while BFL is requesting competitors specs

[Inaba]

As a customer, I feel that the power issue is a critical issue and I do not feel that it's unreasonable to expect an answer from Tom on the subject.  Every other ASIC outfit has put out power figures, except Tom.  It makes me wonder why he's so reluctant to put out power estimates, especially with the understanding that they may be off by as much as 20%.

But in any case, I would like to know what's considered "competitive." 

He probably doesn't want to make the mistake BFL did with the FPGA singles. Releasing a number and being way off. Don't get me wrong, I like both companies and they both make great products, but if someone doesn't feel comfortable pre-ordering these units without power figures, wait until they are released and then make your decision. That's just the same when BFL originally stated they were releasing ASICs back in July with very little information. A lot of people pre-ordered, but others waited until more information came out. I'm sure Tom will release this information soon. Also don't forget, Tom announced his bASIC about 2 months after BFL stated their ASICs, and BFL only announced the power numbers 2 weeks ago? Give Tom a little time.

It's kind of ironic, the next thread down is "Why is Butterfly Labs so secretive?" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118233.0 while BFL is requesting competitors specs

Fair enough, so he can at least answer as to what he considers 'competitive' and if he'll offer refunds if he's not within that space.

[miter_myles]

[SAC]

... and if he'll offer refunds if he's not within that space.

Apparently you missed this post.

....
And yes as of right now I still have an open refund policy. If you change your mind on your pre-order just send me an email and I will process the refund right away - only 2 people have done this since I began taking pre-orders on 09/03 - and believe me my other customers will be happy to have your order out of the way Also while we are on that topic it is likely the refund policy will change when we go into production because I am going to have to spend a LOT of money to have these boards made (the bASIC order count around 700 as of right now) and I still have to finish paying back the investor that fronted the money to have the chips made. When the time gets close to start production of the boards - I will give a weeks notice on the change of refund policy so anyone that wants to change their mind will have enough time to do it, however just like ModMiner Quad owners are happy as hell with them - I know you guys are going to love this little device. It was engineers in California who are at the very top of their profession. This is a really special product and you guys are going to love it.

[Inaba]

I didn't miss it, but I think you might have (relevant part bolded):

And yes as of right now I still have an open refund policy. If you change your mind on your pre-order just send me an email and I will process the refund right away - only 2 people have done this since I began taking pre-orders on 09/03 - and believe me my other customers will be happy to have your order out of the way  Also while we are on that topic it is likely the refund policy will change when we go into production because I am going to have to spend a LOT of money to have these boards made (the bASIC order count around 700 as of right now) and I still have to finish paying back the investor that fronted the money to have the chips made. When the time gets close to start production of the boards - I will give a weeks notice on the change of refund policy so anyone that wants to change their mind will have enough time to do it, however just like ModMiner Quad owners are happy as hell with them - I know you guys are going to love this little device. It was engineers in California who are at the very top of their profession. This is a really special product and you guys are going to love it.

Tom is saying he won't release power information until he has production boards... and his refund policy will change when that happens, meaning once he releases power information, you can't get a refund.  Seems a bit suspicious to me, but hey.  I just want to know if I can still get a refund if his power specs aren't competitive (and what competitive actually means).

[regular]

It's eye opening to see that Inaba is not defending the 1 watt/gigahash.  This means that it likely is just an overly optimistic estimate.

[Bogart]

As a customer, I feel that the power issue is a critical issue and I do not feel that it's unreasonable to expect an answer from Tom on the subject.

You've pre-ordered a bASIC?

[SAC]

I didn't miss it, but I think you might have (relevant part bolded):

And yes as of right now I still have an open refund policy. If you change your mind on your pre-order just send me an email and I will process the refund right away - only 2 people have done this since I began taking pre-orders on 09/03 - and believe me my other customers will be happy to have your order out of the way  Also while we are on that topic it is likely the refund policy will change when we go into production because I am going to have to spend a LOT of money to have these boards made (the bASIC order count around 700 as of right now) and I still have to finish paying back the investor that fronted the money to have the chips made. When the time gets close to start production of the boards - I will give a weeks notice on the change of refund policy so anyone that wants to change their mind will have enough time to do it, however just like ModMiner Quad owners are happy as hell with them - I know you guys are going to love this little device. It was engineers in California who are at the very top of their profession. This is a really special product and you guys are going to love it.

Tom is saying he won't release power information until he has production boards... and his refund policy will change when that happens, meaning once he releases power information, you can't get a refund.  Seems a bit suspicious to me, but hey.  I just want to know if I can still get a refund if his power specs aren't competitive (and what competitive actually means).

I miss nothing you intentionally mis-read/lead with your take on that section where it is crystal clear you can back out for any reason if your not happy with the specs or lack thereof, go play the red herring game elsewhere.

[Inaba]

I don't have to defend it, our numbers are rock solid, thanks for asking though.  

As for pre-ordering a bASIC, of course. I'm pretty sure Tom has BFL equipment tucked away somewhere.

I miss nothing you intentionally mis-read/lead with your take on that section where it is crystal clear you can back out for any reason if your not happy with the specs or lack thereof, go play the red herring game elsewhere.

I beg to differ.  Can you show me where it's crystal clear then?  Tom has clearly stated that the refund policy will likely change.  He has also clearly stated he will not give out power numbers until he has the production boards.  That's pretty clear that there will likely be no refunds after he gives out the power numbers.  Please show me where I am incorrect.

[SAC]

I don't have to defend it, our numbers are rock solid, thanks for asking though.  

As for pre-ordering a bASIC, of course. I'm pretty sure Tom has BFL equipment tucked away somewhere.

I miss nothing you intentionally mis-read/lead with your take on that section where it is crystal clear you can back out for any reason if your not happy with the specs or lack thereof, go play the red herring game elsewhere.

I beg to differ.  Can you show me where it's crystal clear then?  Tom has clearly stated that the refund policy will likely change.  He has also clearly stated he will not give out power numbers until he has the production boards.  That's pretty clear that there will likely be no refunds after he gives out the power numbers.  Please show me where I am incorrect.

Whatever you do neither yourself or BFL any favours by trying this FUD/smear campaign. What is the matter pre-order money dried up has it? Well too bad that is competition you should devote your energy to shipping your products in a reasonable time frame for a change.

[cletus815]

I don't have to defend it, our numbers are rock solid, thanks for asking though.  

As for pre-ordering a bASIC, of course. I'm pretty sure Tom has BFL equipment tucked away somewhere.

I miss nothing you intentionally mis-read/lead with your take on that section where it is crystal clear you can back out for any reason if your not happy with the specs or lack thereof, go play the red herring game elsewhere.

I beg to differ.  Can you show me where it's crystal clear then?  Tom has clearly stated that the refund policy will likely change.  He has also clearly stated he will not give out power numbers until he has the production boards.  That's pretty clear that there will likely be no refunds after he gives out the power numbers.  Please show me where I am incorrect.

Tom also said, in the quote you provided, that he would give a one week notice to any refund policy changes to allow plenty of time for anybody to request one. It's very obvious he's not going to suddenly announce a policy change and screw over his customers as you are trying to imply.

[squid]

lol Inaba spreading FUD while Tom is out of town, real professional. I find it interesting that Tom uses past examples (ie facts) to explain why not to trust BFL's initial estimate then comes in here demanding simulation values. Notice how only BFL gives the claim of 1 gh/watt when even Avalon which actually has respectable engineers gives a much broader and realistic estimate of 2-10 watts/ghash. Tom also probably has the same high quality engineers (after all, the designed a better system than BFL would with the MMQ) who aren't so naive to say something is 1 gh/watt +/- 20%.

Stop wasting your time here Inaba and making BFL look worse than it already is; you should be spending time repairing the shit reputation that your company has gained from tactics that you are putting on display here (among the plethora of other shady half-truths your company makes).

[MrTeal]

Well, this escalated quickly.