Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[ohad]

So how will the coins be voted in? Since it's going to start with no coins, and the rules have to be set. How will those rules be set? What if some people decide for no coin. All very confusing.

i didn't really understand your question, but recall that tau has no coins (unless the users will decide to do so over time), is only a platform to create decentralized applications, like agoras which is a currency indeed

Also, for Ohad, how does it feel trying to explain these things to people? Is it in a way like trying to explain something complicated to a 5 year old?

my main barrier is the english language

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[kalmah]

Hello all, I am new here. Don't know if this is a good question or is too early to ask but considering the broad implications of TauChain, I am really worried the security.

I hope I'm not the only one finding difficulty in investing in another Token sales like this one, especially after The DAO hack.

I was wondering if the TauChain team is planning to applying Formal Verification methods to eliminate any vulnerabilities in the production version of TauChain. I am obviously not an expert in this but seeing that Ethereum is now serious about this, I think its important to look into it early on in the project.

See: https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/06/19/thinking-smart-contract-security/

[dx5]

Edit: Delete. My internet is ultra annoying.

[dx5]

So how will the coins be voted in? Since it's going to start with no coins, and the rules have to be set. How will those rules be set? What if some people decide for no coin. All very confusing.

i didn't really understand your question, but recall that tau has no coins (unless the users will decide to do so over time), is only a platform to create decentralized applications, like agoras which is a currency indeed

Well, in one of the interviews that I heard, it said something to the effect that Tau Chain is going to start with no coins, and that it will be decided by the first users who set the rules. So being new to this, it's difficult to understand because what about the Agoras coin? Would Agoras holders lose their coins if the users decided that there will be no coins?

[Foerster]

Tau chain and Agoras are two different things.

Per default the lean root "Tau-Chain" doesn't come with much of anything.
It's first users will have to decide about the rules of rulemaking, for changing and evolving the properties of the root chain.
I'am personally not sure why the root chain should have a coin? Maybe for voting on changes?

Agoras on the other hand is like a side chain of Tau-Chain and will feature a set of innovative markets and a currency.

Would Agoras holders lose their coins if the users decided that there will be no coins?

Yes, theoretically the first users could decide that they don't want any applications and side chains.
However, this would likely result in a relaunch of the root chain.

[dx5]

Tau chain and Agoras are two different things.

Per default the lean root "Tau-Chain" doesn't come with much of anything.
It's first users will have to decide about the rules of rulemaking, for changing and evolving the properties of the root chain.
I'am personally not sure why the root chain should have a coin? Maybe for voting on changes?

Agoras on the other hand is like a side chain of Tau-Chain and will feature a set of innovative markets and a currency.

Would Agoras holders lose their coins if the users decided that there will be no coins?

Yes, theoretically the first users could decide that they don't want any applications and side chains.
However, this would likely result in a relaunch of the root chain.

Ok, that makes sense. It was just throwing me off hearing that the users could decided there not to be a coin, and thus everyone losing what they've invested. But in the rare, extremely unlikely chance that the first users decide that there should be no coin, then it's early enough for a relaunch.

[googie4]

Because of Tau Chain, a few days ago I was reading about something called the Königsberg bridge problem. Kind of gave up on it. I'm a subscriber to Ted Videos, and my eye just opened up wide when I saw that they just uploaded this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZwSo4vfw6c. I just thought it was an awesome timing. Though I know it's a who cares kind of story. Almost like a sign, don't give up learning about Tau Chain.

[Sam123]

Ohad,
Any comments on tendermint project that enables to run Byzantine fault tolerant applications, written in any programming language.
http://tendermint.com/
Thanks

[dx5]

Any news on development?

[ohad]

Ohad,
Any comments on tendermint project that enables to run Byzantine fault tolerant applications, written in any programming language.
http://tendermint.com/
Thanks

thanks, i think i looked at this in the past, but i don't remember. maybe it worth a deeper look. the first question is of course: how much does it cost to break the system? under proof of work it costs the cumulative amount of hashes.

Any news on development?

nowadays i'm trying to reconsider tau's basic math and see if the logic can be "complete", means that everything is decidable, unlike on MLTT where typecheck and equality are decidable but sometimes true claims about code cannot be proved without restructuring the code (therefore such claims must sometimes come before the code is written and not after).

[ICOcountdown.com]

Cryptico, [04.09.16 16:59]
Exactly wasnt agora a market for that also?

icocountdown, [04.09.16 16:59]
yes

icocountdown, [04.09.16 16:59]
but thats not the whole concept

icocountdown, [04.09.16 16:59]
tau is more about smart contract programming with decidability

icocountdown, [04.09.16 16:59]
and semantic web

icocountdown, [04.09.16 16:59]
basically artificial intelligence

Cryptico, [04.09.16 16:59]
Skynet

Cryptico, [04.09.16 16:59]
But I'm talking about agora not tau

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
well it will be connected

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
agoras is finance on tau

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
and intelligent finance

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
for example it might try to keep itself alive by setting up distributed nodes

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
if it gets that intelligent

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
ohad warned me a while ago when we start genesis its important to get the rules right

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:00]
so it doesnt turn into skynet

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:01]
Ok so it is quite accurate that it can be skynet

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:01]
yes it CAN be skynet

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:01]
it learns for itself

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:01]
you can ask it questions and stuff

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:01]
and it will act

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:01]
But this is tau not agora per say correct?

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:01]
and it will learn value of knowledge

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
tauchain is not agoras

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
but they are connected

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
finance is connected

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:02]
Yes

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
for example

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
in order to keep its servers running

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
it needs financial instrument

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:02]
so it could potentially pay servers and deploy its own blockchain

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:02]
You are talking about agrs

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
yes

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:03]
Ok

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
so it needs agoras

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
even it can trade on markets if it wants

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
it can do any sort of analyis

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
thats the vision anyway

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
for example

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
if you owned all the knowledge in the world

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
what would you do with it?

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:03]
its there for you to get

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:04]
but u cannot process it all

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:04]
and then lets say

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:04]
tau processes it all

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:05]
That's scary as (bad language)

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:05]
yeah thats why we need smart people on the genesis

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:05]
because this is not a joke bro

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:05]
this is a (bad language) very big thing

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:06]
Yes but what if the Genesis rule than are decided to change between users

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:06]
After genesis

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:06]
no there is very fundamental rules

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:06]
that cannot be changed

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:06]
Ok

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:06]
so we need to give its mind correct

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:06]
at genesis

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:06]
Ok but this is a very difficult task

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:06]
so you are basically buying right now a vote in how this thing is gonna act

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:07]
How can you be sure you are setting the very good ones when there are millions of combination possible

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:07]
you basically need to make sure that its not agnostic

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:07]
and it has some rational mind

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:07]
like it cant do weird stuff

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:07]
You need to be sure it has morality

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:07]
And ethics

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:08]
yes excatly

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:08]
How do we do that?

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:08]
you need to set rules for that

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:08]
like it can and cannot do certain things

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:08]
But there are too many specifics on which an action can fall into a Grey area

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:08]
In theory

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:09]
thats why we need people to be a part of the project

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:09]
because if it gets released on genesis we dont know what we are releasing

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:09]
we need very specific rule sets of what its gonna do

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:09]
so we need smart people

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:09]
to basically try and work it out

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:09]
Ok i believe once you have the coding it might potentially take another year to set the rules

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:10]
But since it is open source what if a sick mind take the code and set his owns rules before genesis

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:10]
that is a problem

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:10]
You are not going to release the public code for Genesis until we set the rules I suppose

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:10]
but you must support ohad because he has good intentions

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:10]
that is one of the rules

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:11]
the good artifical intelligence

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:11]
will fight the bad artificial intelligence

Babu SK, [04.09.16 17:11]
[ Voice message ]

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:11]
that will probably be a possibility

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:11]
Yes but we need to make sure that none launch Genesis with its own set of rules before ohad does

icocountdown, [04.09.16 17:11]
thats why you must support ohads work

Cryptico, [04.09.16 17:11]
Oh my God this is (bad language) terminator in real life lol

Here is a conversation I had with a Tau community member as to why we need to support Ohad and more people to be involved at genesis for setting rules.

To learn more view the condensed summary by Ohad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKhzo_60f6Y

[dx5]

Is there an example of how the rules will be entered? The format. Like how will the users type it?

[ohad]

Is there an example of how the rules will be entered? The format. Like how will the users type it?

the goal is to use RDF family syntax (eg Notation3)

[m4nki]

https://steemit.com/tauchain/@dana-edwards/how-to-prevent-tauchain-from-becoming-skynet

[dx5]

If Tau Chain crawls the internet, how will their results differ from Googles? If a person that nobody has ever heard off has a diary, can I for example, "What did persons name do on January 28, 1985?," and get the entry? Would it set rules based on what it crawled?

[ohad]

If Tau Chain crawls the internet, how will their results differ from Googles? If a person that nobody has ever heard off has a diary, can I for example, "What did persons name do on January 28, 1985?," and get the entry? Would it set rules based on what it crawled?

tau will not magically structure unstructured data (unless one day someone will come up with natural language comprehension algorithm). but consider the following "simple" fact: what if everyone had access to google's raw database?

[dx5]

If Tau Chain crawls the internet, how will their results differ from Googles? If a person that nobody has ever heard off has a diary, can I for example, "What did persons name do on January 28, 1985?," and get the entry? Would it set rules based on what it crawled?

tau will not magically structure unstructured data (unless one day someone will come up with natural language comprehension algorithm). but consider the following "simple" fact: what if everyone had access to google's raw database?

But what do you mean by Google's raw database? Don't we have access to it when Googling? Do you mean without the filters, rankings, etc? It's over my head perhaps. Wouldn't Tau Chain do the same, search for keywords? So what exactly can Tau Chain do in a special manner with Google's raw database?

Edit: It's difficult concept to understand for a regular person, but that's what makes it interesting.

[ohad]

If Tau Chain crawls the internet, how will their results differ from Googles? If a person that nobody has ever heard off has a diary, can I for example, "What did persons name do on January 28, 1985?," and get the entry? Would it set rules based on what it crawled?

tau will not magically structure unstructured data (unless one day someone will come up with natural language comprehension algorithm). but consider the following "simple" fact: what if everyone had access to google's raw database?

But what do you mean by Google's raw database? Don't we have access to it when Googling? Do you mean without the filters, rankings, etc? It's over my head perhaps. Wouldn't Tau Chain do the same, search for keywords? So what exactly can Tau Chain do in a special manner with Google's raw database?

Edit: It's difficult concept to understand for a regular person, but that's what makes it interesting.

the access we get to google's database is very limited. if you had it available you could for example search by regular expression, or write any program that uses the database in any way you like. google only gives you a small edit box to enter few words with very limited options.
but this is not what tau is really about, is only one use case. on tau everyone can share and use structured data, which may represent programs as well, or already-structured knowledge written in e.g. rdf triples (cf dbpedia for example). the main difference is in the former example: tau is not only about having knowledge (and reasoning about it in a decidable framework), but is also about running the knowledge, namely executing computer programs in which we can also decidably reason over and make sure they are safe and meet given specification. this all, in a decentralized, trustless, yet secure p2p network.

[vlight]

But what do you mean by Google's raw database? Don't we have access to it when Googling? Do you mean without the filters, rankings, etc? It's over my head perhaps. Wouldn't Tau Chain do the same, search for keywords? So what exactly can Tau Chain do in a special manner with Google's raw database?

Edit: It's difficult concept to understand for a regular person, but that's what makes it interesting.

Basically, Google presents the search results in a way that it benefits them the most, while also displaying a lot of related ads. All this at the expense of other online businesses. Additionally, the results get censored, they track your search queries etc. But what if some bright developers could take the crawled data and implement internet search in a more fair way. Personally, i find it very intriguing and was/am waiting until the blockhain and decentralization technology will overthrow Google. It seems unrealistic today, but you never know what innovation will bring. 

[dx5]

All too interesting. I just hope it's available soon, since then I will truly be able to understand it.

Just too many questions.

So users will be continuously feeding Tau Chains facts. Like "Cat is mammal," "Cat is pet," "President runs country," "President runs company." And Tau chain is going to connect it all together?