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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 279583 times)
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October 05, 2016, 01:59:05 AM
 #1401

The argueing is not really positive what is needed is to work together. Seperation of the team is not what anyone wanted but things must move on.

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October 05, 2016, 09:20:32 AM
 #1402

Allow me to add my feminine (and maybe a bit unusual) touch here .
I love you both Ohad and HMC for caring so much about making the tau. So much that you can not give in to anything but what you each came to believe in.

Amazingly enough we are talking about mathematics and proves, something one should assume to be resolved based on knowledge, but knowledge being infinite can never be a consistent or decidable system on its own. It need ones believe to make it such.

This may sound like some spiritual bullshit talk, yet the creation of tau which aims at solving that problem is going to be shaped by a concrete understanding of that which we name belief.
Belief is how the human awareness algorithm solved the  Turing complete problem. It start with the sense of Ego and is being fully activated by the mechanism of belief (not religious belief, which are one manifestation of it).
I hope to write on it much more as time go by (not very good at writing long premeditated well spelled articles  Smiley )

But I want to add one note for the investors who put money on it.
You can rest assure that both Ohad and HMC will not compromise on the product in order to make quick money. they both could have been doing that long ago and still can do it anywhere they choose.
But both work to get to the best result for the tau each believe to be that best one, and they both know it can be done within a reasonable time frame. (about a year or so I think).

I should be the last one to give any financial advice when it come to the accumulation of fortune, but that is since fortune is the not the smartest investment one can do in terms of risk management and the future..... (more so if they have children and need to think really long term)
However in short term..... I assume that once the tau will work the entire Eterheum ecosystem will have to migrate to the tau. Smiley  
  
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October 05, 2016, 09:42:00 AM
 #1403

Thank you Ohad, HunterMinerCrafter and Stoopkid for giving such detailed descriptions of the issue and making cases for both sides.
Classic or not.
Many people would like to see an actual product after they already waited for so long.

Imho results can potentially be realized much faster with the original Tau design. Most significantly, even if Ohad is right, the team joining forces and pushing forward the original design could still be the better option. The reason being that there is no unlimited optimal window of opportunity for launching crypto projects. So a lot of momentum and interest could be generated just by getting ANY working prototype out. (As I see it, mid-2017 would be very good)

Then, when there is a lot more funding and vested interest in the project, it would also be much easier to activate the MSO backup design in case the original design actually turns out to be defective. If this becomes the case then not only Ohad but also a number of actually paid people could go to work on the backup design.

Also, it should be made clear where Agoras investors stand in this HMC Tau/Ohad tau quarrel, since it seems to me like HMC's Tau could easily come with another Agoras.
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October 05, 2016, 12:30:40 PM
 #1404


Also, it should be made clear where Agoras investors stand in this HMC Tau/Ohad tau quarrel, since it seems to me like HMC's Tau could easily come with another Agoras.

Agoras is a token for an implementation on tauchain once created and made stable. It was always Ohad's commitment to develop it and he chose to join with HMC to create  the tauchain and then implement the agora on it rather than do it as zennet. Yet it is the tauchain that first need to be created. Ohad's commitment was and still is the same. He is devoting all his time to create it. (despite getting many other offers at the current heated market for blockchain developers) .
However both HMC and stoopkid show no less personal commitment to create the tau.
So which ever part of the team* get to make the tau dosnt really matter since Agora will be implemented on a tau that is working.

*yes you are a team even if working on two different options at this point Eventually the product is what we all care about. a product that we all can share and use. (think of it, there is no real competition once the knowledge and information is open to all, only each one doing his/her best getting the work done)   
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October 06, 2016, 10:28:45 AM
 #1405


However both HMC and stoopkid show no less personal commitment to create the tau.
So which ever part of the team* get to make the tau dosnt really matter since Agora will be implemented on a tau that is working.
  

So you are saying that Ohad will implement agoras existing tokens on "classic" if it works first?
Have you spoken with Ohad about that, or are you making things up as you go along.
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October 06, 2016, 11:00:29 AM
 #1406


However both HMC and stoopkid show no less personal commitment to create the tau.
So which ever part of the team* get to make the tau dosnt really matter since Agora will be implemented on a tau that is working.
  

So you are saying that Ohad will implement agoras existing tokens on "classic" if it works first?
Have you spoken with Ohad about that, or are you making things up as you go along.

I do happens to know Ohad very well and talk with him often* (As well as HMC, as much as he let anyone know him Smiley)

Ohad do not believe that "classic" will be a good enough product to implement Agora. that is the reason He is working on an alternative language by which to write the tauchin. If classic would be found to be sufficient and will satisfy the requirement  he will use it (unless creating something better before)   Mind you that there is no ideological difference between "classic" and Ohad. it is only technological/theoretical dispute. a working tauchain that is up to standard needed for Agora (according ot Ohad"s) will be used to implement it.

* he approved that particular post you have quoted in a conversation I made with him yesterday.
 
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October 06, 2016, 11:06:40 AM
 #1407

indeed tau begins equal for all participants by definition, and agoras can be implemented over any good tau.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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October 06, 2016, 11:54:50 AM
 #1408

indeed tau begins equal for all participants by definition, and agoras can be implemented over any good tau.
nice hearing that im just new hear and im reading more info about your project i just hope for the best dev. good luck

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October 06, 2016, 12:07:24 PM
 #1409

a working tauchain that is up to standard needed for Agora (according ot Ohad"s) will be used to implement it.

* he approved that particular post you have quoted in a conversation I made with him yesterday.
 

Sure, it is just you are coming across as saying that agoras WOULD be implemented on "classic" working Tau as we are a team, but that seems rather unrealistic to make such a representation at this point in time, as "being up to standard" and "good" is from Ohad's perspective... Your (manipulative? poor?) use of words might be seen as misguiding readers to an incorrect conclusion.










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October 06, 2016, 02:36:53 PM
 #1410

I think that Ohad is well articulated and capable of releasing statements on his own behalf (and on behalf of the project) and there is no need to speak for him beforehand (this is true to any participant who chooses to release statements regarding the project - something that should be given from the only relevant authority - Ohad).
In regard to what Ohad said, that he will implement Agoras on the best (or at least good enough) working Tau he will have in hand, that makes complete sense and is to the best interest of the Investors and the general crypto community as a whole. I have no doubt that he stands by his words and will make it happen to the best of his abilities (in which I trust completely). Regarding the subjectivity of the use of the phrasing "good enough" - I think that it is not completely subjective, as it has to solidly maintain very clear specifications as described in length thus far. In any given project ever created, the creators had to decide what is "good enough" to be considered as tools for building it, and what is "good enough" as a product for public release. After the fact, it could be discussed and argued upon by the users and other interested parties.

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October 06, 2016, 05:27:24 PM
 #1411

In the remote scenario in which the investors community will decides to build the “agoras” over TAU-MLTT and Ohad would not agree to cooperate, the agoras-MLTT development can raise funds by taking a snapshot of the blockchain from October 04, 2016, 11:13:01 PM GMT, issuing a new token, contains 42m units, distribute tokens to holders of “IDNI 58” of that date (except the issuer), and sell the rest of the tokens.

Even better option: Asking Ohad to stop the ICO for now, and wait few weeks after the release of TAU chain to start it again, for the next reasons:

1.
Ohad declared in the past that the TAU chain development is not required a big amount of money, and that the funds raised now are for the "agoras" development. So there is enough money now to complete the TAU chain development.

2.
There is no sense to continue to raise funds to “agoras” project, when it is not clear yet if the TAU chain will be released ever, what TAU chain will be released, and what will be its quality.

3.
After the release of TAU chain, the tokens could be sold in much higher price, which can lead to better budget to the “agoras” development and possibly to better “agoras” final product.
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October 07, 2016, 12:55:00 PM
 #1412

answering the last comment by hmc, i'll try to shorten and focus in the main parts of the discussion and restructure it for the sake of clarity for the technical reader:

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you mix decidability with consistency.

Not at all, and I stand by my statement.  If agda/coq/idris et al had the particular properties that you claim they do then there would be cases where you could trivially send them off into an infinite loop in type-check/termination-check.

this ensapculates two repeated misconceptions. the first one is "why agda/idris/coq" are useful, and from their logical properties point of view, it's thanks to their expressiveness and consistency. they are proof helpers, not fully automatic provers, and as such they're very useful tools even though they don't offer a complete logic, and the proofs generated by them (once found) can be trusted. it doesn't mean that they fit tau's environment.
in practice people use dependent types as for today, because higher order model checking using msol is a very new technique (couldn't begin before 2006) and highly active area of research (some of the interesting results are from this year 2016), and i was referring to the academic world looking for new methods rather deptypes, partially due to the problems i mentioned.

the second one is the repeated request (here and on irc dozens of times) of something that takes agda to infinite loop, while i explain time and again that i never claimed that they can be inflooped, but that some terminating programs must be rejected and there is no human/machine way to pass totality check for all terminating programs.

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These tools, which are so easy and approachable that they've been compared to the interface of video games (quite an accomplishment for such a complex software) are somehow actually much less usable than they seem?

playing a video game is easy, but winning it is hard. indeed it's easy to write in agda/idris, but it's hard to pass the checks.

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just getting from mltt to mltt+tfpl would require a possibly infinite procedure....
Someone should really let the agda/coq devs know... XD  I don't think that they're aware that they've been doing the impossible this whole time...

possibly infinite *human* procedure.

Quote
Sure, but this doesn't change the fact that this case of (semi/un/partial)-decidability is irrelevant, as it is an offline, user-interactive process and not a part of the network consensus process.

NO! that's one of your big mistakes. tau will need to detect cases of matching/breaking the rules without necessarily the user knowing about it! and that's what makes a nomic game sound. a context can set a rule, which is basically a type. such rule is set for future purposes, namely, terms that come after the rule is set will try to typecheck. but they will not necessarily typecheck out-of-the-box even if they're well-typed, as typecheck is undecidable, therefore sometimes restructuring the term/type will be required. (such restructuring may be beyond adding postulates, and is a manual process in agda/idris)

Quote
Your "complete and consistent" MSO is (necessarily) not computationally complete.  It is simply not possible to have a complete, consistent logic which is also computationally complete, as being computationally complete implies being able to express and reason over full arithmetic axioms.  Any logic which is both consistent and computationally complete will necessarily be incomplete.

it's easy to restrict a language into a terminating one (eg by primitive recursion) and keeping it computationally complete, as finite turing completeness can be achieved even with QBF which is not even arithmetic (far to mention MSOL), a fact that collapses your argument against msol.

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no total language is computationally complete, as it can never interpret itself.

Double nonsense.  Self-interpretation is not a requirement for computational completeness.  Even if it were, your argument still doesn't stand up as total languages *can* self interpret (contrary to conventional wisdom) as established recently by Brown-Palsberg.  (Why you'd even make this claim is strange, since both Brown-Palsberg's self interpretation and Bauer's self interpreter for System T were discussed several times on the IRC....)

Note from stoopkid: "the conventional proof only says that there can be no total computable universal function for the total computable functions, and that any such universal function must be strictly partial, but that if a rewrite system is strongly normalizing then it necessarily cannot be this universal function, because a strongly normalizing rewrite system is equivalent to some total function, not any strictly partial function, and thus can't be a universal function for the total computable numbers, so the conventional diagonalization proof doesnt say anything about the expressibility of the total functions defining strongly normalizing rewrite systems in regards to whether or not they can be their own universal function which corresponds to not saying anything about the existence of self-interpreters in strongly normalizing rewrite systems."

total languages cannot self-interpret, and brown&palsberg is only a weak interpreter. this impossibility can easily be proved by diagonalization, eg here http://math.andrej.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/self-interpreter-for-T.pdf

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Great, so go get to it.... it has actually been many (>6) months, now, since you originally decided MLTT isn't the way
no, only less than 2 months since i found out regarding mltt.

Quote
Of course it would be self-contradictory for you to claim that multiplication is possible in your hypothetical complete & consistent "somehow MSO-like but not really MSO" logic.  As you rightly elaborate in your blog post, this would contradict Godel.  If tau is to be built with a complete and consistent logic, then it will necessarily omit some portion of basic arithmetic - meaning there will be some math which it *cannot* do in its rules - meaning there will be some routing/topology rules which it *cannot* employ - meaning it will *not* meet the original goal of a fully general, decentralized network.  (This is inescapable without accepting an incomplete logic.)

no. not-being-arithmetic doesn't necessarily require to give up either mul or add, but can restrict certain quantifications, negations etc. while keeping both operations. one example is monotone multivariate polynomials.

Quote
If you don't know what a general product is, (and why GADTs are important for programming in a typed functional setting) or the difference between a product type and an intersection type, then you are certainly still a *long* way (another year or two, maybe?) from being ready to build a tau, using *any* logic.

Note from stoop: "you might explain why exactly MSO prevents the definability of the general product, even without appeal to godel; mso rules out quantification over functions of arity greater than 1,
Quote
Let's just ignore the fact that MSO predated MLTT by quite a bit, and is certainly well set in "the old ways" of the days of Frege and Quine...

these are two examples of a repeated misunderstanding of you, mixing msol with stlc+y. you can happily quantify higher order multi-parameter functions, as they're stlc+y creatures, which modern msol-over-trees speaks about. like taking mltt and adding it an msol meta-logic, but that'd be undecidable, so we restrict mltt in one hand to simple higher order types, and enrich it on the other hand with an unrestricted Y combinator whether safe or not (which implies non-normalizing terms of course, yet normalization is decidable via the mso metalogic). and this is (msol over stlc+y far from being strict subset of mltt) part of why you're all so wrong in your ""understanding"" of msol, as you wrote:
Quote
"you might also note that everybody on our team probably has a better understanding of MSO than he does at this point. since we understand it completely fully as just a specific and not very expressive subset of MLTT. and are seeing a more complete picture that illuminates exactly why MSO has the specific properties it does and how those actually relate to the rest of MLTT."

last:

Quote
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just like human intuition works when it comes to formalism. and just like the vast majority of mathematicians in all eras hold.

Our intuition must certainly work differently.  That is OK.  "Agree to disagree" and all.

As to how the "vast majority" of intuitions work, I won't be so arrogant as to assume.... and I don't think that there's been anything like a census...  Feel free to show some statistics on the matter, however, if you know of such a poll!

look all over the mathematical history, when did people consider non-LEM Euclid geometry? i pick this specific example as it's the oldest fully-axiomatic theory (axiomatized by Euclid himself) that was never stopped to be studied and written about.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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October 08, 2016, 06:59:33 PM
 #1413

Some food for thought anyone computer systems are only as intelligent as those that programme it, they don't have emotions like humans so we are all fallable in that concept. I hope HMC isn't upset and I hope he continues to work on the project with Ohad. I think seperation in the community is not positive and I believe we can all come to some rational approach - in scope this is a bigger project and needs all of us.

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October 10, 2016, 06:07:18 AM
 #1414

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?
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October 10, 2016, 10:19:12 AM
 #1415

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?

things moving good, i'm very close to begin coding some of the new logic, and i see extremely innovative methods offered in contemporary literature which will make tau even more useful (eg the "MSOL transfer theorem" which implies program/property synthesis, or expressibility of infinite terms), i also try to see if these new tools can enhance or improve the network's protocol (namely the nomic implementation). also some non-r&d activities and advancements eg probably today an interview of mine that was taken a month ago will be published. that's in short

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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October 10, 2016, 10:58:49 AM
 #1416

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?

things moving good, i'm very close to begin coding some of the new logic, and i see extremely innovative methods offered in contemporary literature which will make tau even more useful (eg the "MSOL transfer theorem" which implies program/property synthesis, or expressibility of infinite terms), i also try to see if these new tools can enhance or improve the network's protocol (namely the nomic implementation). also some non-r&d activities and advancements eg probably today an interview of mine that was taken a month ago will be published. that's in short

Great to hear that! Smiley

Very excited!

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October 10, 2016, 04:18:57 PM
 #1417

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?

things moving good, i'm very close to begin coding some of the new logic, and i see extremely innovative methods offered in contemporary literature which will make tau even more useful (eg the "MSOL transfer theorem" which implies program/property synthesis, or expressibility of infinite terms), i also try to see if these new tools can enhance or improve the network's protocol (namely the nomic implementation). also some non-r&d activities and advancements eg probably today an interview of mine that was taken a month ago will be published. that's in short

Great to hear that! Smiley

Very excited!

Fantastic! i hope someone can also help with the work load, dont burn out.

Keep up the great work!


 
 
 
 
 
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October 10, 2016, 05:40:22 PM
 #1418

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?

things moving good, i'm very close to begin coding some of the new logic, and i see extremely innovative methods offered in contemporary literature which will make tau even more useful (eg the "MSOL transfer theorem" which implies program/property synthesis, or expressibility of infinite terms), i also try to see if these new tools can enhance or improve the network's protocol (namely the nomic implementation). also some non-r&d activities and advancements eg probably today an interview of mine that was taken a month ago will be published. that's in short

Great to hear that! Smiley

Very excited!

Fantastic! i hope someone can also help with the work load, dont burn out.

Keep up the great work!

As MrWhiteBites mention don't burn out: You need maybe to hire some developers. It's extremely hard to do All by yourself.


                                 
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October 10, 2016, 08:36:14 PM
 #1419

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?

things moving good, i'm very close to begin coding some of the new logic, and i see extremely innovative methods offered in contemporary literature which will make tau even more useful (eg the "MSOL transfer theorem" which implies program/property synthesis, or expressibility of infinite terms), i also try to see if these new tools can enhance or improve the network's protocol (namely the nomic implementation). also some non-r&d activities and advancements eg probably today an interview of mine that was taken a month ago will be published. that's in short

Great to hear that! Smiley

Very excited!

Fantastic! i hope someone can also help with the work load, dont burn out.

Keep up the great work!

As MrWhiteBites mention don't burn out: You need maybe to hire some developers. It's extremely hard to do All by yourself.


Reading the arguments, it sounds like Ohad has a very specific and knowledgeable idea of how everything works. In situations like that bringing others in can just get in the way.
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October 10, 2016, 11:46:09 PM
 #1420

Ohad, how are things going along in the project? I understand there are some fighting, but how are things moving along?

things moving good, i'm very close to begin coding some of the new logic, and i see extremely innovative methods offered in contemporary literature which will make tau even more useful (eg the "MSOL transfer theorem" which implies program/property synthesis, or expressibility of infinite terms), i also try to see if these new tools can enhance or improve the network's protocol (namely the nomic implementation). also some non-r&d activities and advancements eg probably today an interview of mine that was taken a month ago will be published. that's in short

Great to hear that! Smiley

Very excited!

Fantastic! i hope someone can also help with the work load, dont burn out.

Keep up the great work!

As MrWhiteBites mention don't burn out: You need maybe to hire some developers. It's extremely hard to do All by yourself.


Reading the arguments, it sounds like Ohad has a very specific and knowledgeable idea of how everything works. In situations like that bringing others in can just get in the way.

Very hard to develop top class project with only one person.


                                 
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