Bitcoin Forum
March 19, 2024, 07:55:38 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 26.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 [56] 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 ... 169 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 309095 times)
ohad (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 897
Merit: 1000

http://idni.org


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2016, 09:31:09 PM
 #1101

Quote
Hang on,
"If Turing completeness is faulty" "there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology."

Which one are you talking about? Unless you mean both?
From what I've heard, if you believe in Turing completeness, pick Tau-Chain.
If you believe in software being Turing Complete, pick Ethereum.
(Someone recently said this but I can't remember who)

if you believe math, pick tau Wink
turing complete languages leave you helpless predicting what your code is going to do, except the "wait and see" way

Quote
You folks should check out Burst's ATs (automated transactions) if you are interested in smart contracts that are secure and work. It is likely a great investment opportunity as well.

transactions are old news. here we build a general purpose programming language

Tau-Chain & Agoras
It is a common myth that Bitcoin is ruled by a majority of miners. This is not true. Bitcoin miners "vote" on the ordering of transactions, but that's all they do. They can't vote to change the network rules.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1710834938
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710834938

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710834938
Reply with quote  #2

1710834938
Report to moderator
1710834938
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710834938

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710834938
Reply with quote  #2

1710834938
Report to moderator
e1ghtSpace
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001


Crypto since 2014


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2016, 09:47:15 PM
 #1102

Quote
Hang on,
"If Turing completeness is faulty" "there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology."

Which one are you talking about? Unless you mean both?
From what I've heard, if you believe in Turing completeness, pick Tau-Chain.
If you believe in software being Turing Complete, pick Ethereum.
(Someone recently said this but I can't remember who)

if you believe math, pick tau Wink
turing complete languages leave you helpless predicting what your code is going to do, except the "wait and see" way
Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley
ohad (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 897
Merit: 1000

http://idni.org


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2016, 09:52:37 PM
 #1103

Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

did you watch this talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo&list=PLav2klOnTUlN6UynNT-_8hTs1FtF0fGbl&index=3 ?

Tau-Chain & Agoras
e1ghtSpace
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001


Crypto since 2014


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2016, 10:14:38 PM
 #1104

Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

did you watch this talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo&list=PLav2klOnTUlN6UynNT-_8hTs1FtF0fGbl&index=3 ?
Yes, I have watched this video, but I watched it again.
I understand what tau-chain will do, but I just don't understand how. I think i'll need to watch it again. Smiley

So, that lawyer contract you described at the beginning would be rejected by tau-chain, right?
ohad (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 897
Merit: 1000

http://idni.org


View Profile WWW
June 21, 2016, 10:20:22 PM
 #1105

Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

did you watch this talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo&list=PLav2klOnTUlN6UynNT-_8hTs1FtF0fGbl&index=3 ?
Yes, I have watched this video, but I watched it again.
I understand what tau-chain will do, but I just don't understand how. I think i'll need to watch it again. Smiley

So, that lawyer contract you described at the beginning would be rejected by tau-chain, right?

right
tau's logic is martin lof type theory http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/type-theory-intuitionistic/

Tau-Chain & Agoras
edwolf
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 11
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 22, 2016, 03:35:24 AM
 #1106

Why does icocountdown.com have a countdown for Agoras saying that the price will increase in about 17 days? I thought this was being openly traded on Bittrex..

The price increases every month. The fully supply is not on bittrex. The full supply is owned by Ohad and the development team, so it's a rolling crowdsale.

Interesting... I guess I don't understand how a rolling crowdsale works, can you further explain why the price will increase?

Still don't understand how they are predicting price increases. Because its "pegged" to the dollar? Hasn't pegging failed miserably in the past i.e Paycoin as an example? They forecasted $0.20 on May 1st and its currently $0.10 so seems like the peg isn't working..
ohad (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 897
Merit: 1000

http://idni.org


View Profile WWW
June 22, 2016, 03:36:30 AM
 #1107

Why does icocountdown.com have a countdown for Agoras saying that the price will increase in about 17 days? I thought this was being openly traded on Bittrex..

The price increases every month. The fully supply is not on bittrex. The full supply is owned by Ohad and the development team, so it's a rolling crowdsale.

Interesting... I guess I don't understand how a rolling crowdsale works, can you further explain why the price will increase?

Still don't understand how they are predicting price increases. Because its "pegged" to the dollar? Hasn't pegging failed miserably in the past i.e Paycoin as an example? They forecasted $0.20 on May 1st and its currently $0.10 so seems like the peg isn't working..

is not about predicting/forecasting, but about the price we sell at directly, which has nothing to do with the price people sell at on bittrex

Tau-Chain & Agoras
Foerster
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 143
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 22, 2016, 04:57:32 AM
 #1108

Just to clarify:
Presale price: Price when buying directly from Ohad. Discounts are possible depending on volume and delivery date. Can be advantageous if one buys big amounts. Presale will continue until all 42 Million tokens are sold or Agoras is released. Presale price increases with time.

Exchange/Market price: Variable price on exchange (e.g. Bittrex). Usually a good option for small amounts. If you buy big amounts on exchange the price may rise too fast due to low market depth.
cryptico
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 22, 2016, 12:00:25 PM
 #1109

Just to clarify:
Presale price: Price when buying directly from Ohad. Discounts are possible depending on volume and delivery date. Can be advantageous if one buys big amounts. Presale will continue until all 42 Million tokens are sold or Agoras is released. Presale price increases with time.

Exchange/Market price: Variable price on exchange (e.g. Bittrex). Usually a good option for small amounts. If you buy big amounts on exchange the price may rise too fast due to low market depth.

no presale can end even tomo if development is completed and rest of the coins burned. presale is just until development is completed

.WildBeastBlock.       █
 ▄     █▄    ▄
 █     ██     █
 █      █▀   ███
 █▄▄   ▄█    ███
███   ▀██▄   ▀█
 █▀     █▀   ██
 █    ▄███   ██▀
 ██  ▀▀██   ▄▄█
 ██▄    ██▄  ██▄
 ▄█    ▄██    █
▀██     █    ███
 ██    ▄██   ▀██
 ██▀    ██▀   █
  █     █▀    █
  █     █     █
  ▀     █     ▀
       █
 ▄     █▄    ▄
 █     ██     █
 █      █▀   ███
 █▄▄   ▄█    ███
███   ▀██▄   ▀█
 █▀     █▀   ██
 █    ▄███   ██▀
 ██  ▀▀██   ▄▄█
 ██▄    ██▄  ██▄
 ▄█    ▄██    █
▀██     █    ███
 ██    ▄██   ▀██
 ██▀    ██▀   █
  █     █▀    █
  █     █     █
  ▀     █     ▀
  with New Wallet & Smart Message Insertion
  with Smart Doc Insertion
  Free WBB Chat App | Fully Secure and Private
e1ghtSpace
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001


Crypto since 2014


View Profile WWW
June 22, 2016, 12:12:44 PM
 #1110

Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

did you watch this talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo&list=PLav2klOnTUlN6UynNT-_8hTs1FtF0fGbl&index=3 ?
Yes, I have watched this video, but I watched it again.
I understand what tau-chain will do, but I just don't understand how. I think i'll need to watch it again. Smiley

So, that lawyer contract you described at the beginning would be rejected by tau-chain, right?

right
tau's logic is martin lof type theory http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/type-theory-intuitionistic/
Ok, so if you wanted to make a contract like the lawyer one in tau-chain, then would you have to say that if there is a contradiction then the teacher needs to be paid? Or would something else need to be done? Or maybe that contract can't be described in tau's code. (I don't know Smiley)
Sorry for the questions. :/
klosure
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 50
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 22, 2016, 08:29:46 PM
Last edit: June 22, 2016, 09:00:17 PM by klosure
 #1111

Quote from: ohad
Hang on,
"If Turing completeness is faulty" "there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology."
Which one are you talking about? Unless you mean both?
"Turing-completeness" is to "Turing-complete" what "Madness" is to "Mad": just a way to name the quality of something being Turing-complete.

From what I've heard, if you believe in Turing completeness, pick Tau-Chain.
If you believe in software being Turing Complete, pick Ethereum.
This doesn't make sense to me. Typo?

turing complete languages leave you helpless predicting what your code is going to do, except the "wait and see" way
Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

I can try to give you an analogy. Let's take cargo ships for instance.

Generalist ships can carry stuff of all shape and form with no restriction other than their size and weight limits: space rockets, airplanes, cranes, train wagons, whatever. It's cool because you can really carry anything. But it comes with its own difficulties: it's pretty much impossible to plan in advance how exactly you are going to arrange the things you need to load so that they will fit neatly and optimally and won't move during the trip. Sometimes your guys at the dock will manage to find a solution quick. Sometimes they'll have to load and unload things so many times that it seems like it takes forever. And that's when you don't have someone asking you to ship something so enormous that it blocks your docks for a week when you figure how to ship it at all. This type of ship is turing complete. In theory it could ship the moon. It could ship anything of any size if you have an infinitely large ship, and infinite number of dockers and an infinite amount of time. But in practice that doesn't really work like that, and the actual ships that end ups being used are all limited in size, and your docks have only that many cranes and that many dockers to help. Those ships are a watered down finite version of the real thing. So what happens with the real-life finite turing ships is that they work ok until it don't. And you can't really tell in advance when things are going to be smooth at the dock or when it will become really messy because the only way to decide how things gonna fit and what ship to use is to try to fit them in the ships. Of course there are many trivial shipments but the problem is you have no guarantees that a shipment will be easy to handle, difficult or downright impossible. But that's not the worse thing: the nightmare of turing-complete shippers is the outsourcing business, that is to say when another shipping company asks them to ship the cargo of their clients who may themselves be shipping companies outsourcing for other shipping companies and so on. Since they are all in the same business of turing-complete shipping as you are, they can't tell what the size of their cargo will be, and their clients don't know either etc. And if you yourself start to outsource unknowingly to one of the clients of one of your own client, that's where things start becoming self-referent and in some cases paradoxal, leading to capacity planning decisions that are sometime inconsistent.

Some other ships are specialized in carrying containers. They can carry only containers, and all the containers need to have exactly the same dimensions. No exception allowed. The containers are spacious, and inside the containers you can arrange things the way you want so it's not a problem for a large majority of the typical use cases. This type of ships is called total functional ships. The advantage is that even a 10-year-old could tell you just how many containers you can load on your ship if you give him the dimensions of the deck and the height limit so it's really easy to make sure that you always have the exact right capacity for your cargo, and your dock is working in continuous streaming loading container after container and ship after ship 24/7. But the problem is that you just can't carry anything larger than a container, making the shipping solution non-complete. Well, in fact there is a little secret: with some coordination you can carry anything of any size, but you'll need your customers to be smart and figure a way to breakdown the cargo into components that can fit in a container. You'll still be able to ship a plane, a rocket, the moon or even the whole infinite universe, but it will all have to be done in small parts, chunks and/or raw materials, that you will reassemble on the other end, effectively recovering the full expressiveness of what turing-complete ships are able to do, but over a controlled sequence of individual containers possibly carried by an infinity of ships. That requires a lot more thinking and engineering ahead of time than just shipping things piecemeal, but the reward is that at least at the time the cargo arrives at the dock, you don't have to worry that it could be too big to handle, and there is always a solution to the questions of how to load the cargo and how long it will take to your dockers to do the job. Like in the case of turing-complete shippers, you can also handle the outsourcing business of other containers shippers and outsource yourself, but since everybody can forecast what they are going to ship because nobody accepts cargo that's not already been quantified, it's impossible in the total functional shipping business to get requirements like "I will ship through you what is being shipped through me" but rather requirements like "I will ship 159 containers". This forced determination in relationships prevents the occurrence of self-referent cargo and guarantees that capacity planning leads to results that are always consistent.

In this analogy, Tau-Chain is a container ship company and Ethereum a generalist ship company.

Tau-chain can tell to its client how much their cargo will cost to ship, how long its gonna take and when a single ship isn't enough and will use all and any container ship available of any size regardless and manage to dispatch all the cargo optimally. It can make all sorts of predictions on the shipping like checking that weight is well balanced, or that temperature in the containers remains within a certain range etc. Clients can attach to containers  fast automated procedures called proofs which took them quite some time to prepare but that will allow to clear automatically and very fast custom, security, and quality controls at the arrival point so that the cargo can be deployed right away to its intended use and used on the spot. Another interesting aspect of Tau-chain is that it finds its container system (Tau) so good that the company decided to eat its own dog food and sequence itself in a continuously evolving series of its own containers with custom procedures to maintain its own integrity as it evolves.

Ethereum on the other hand can't quite tell in advance just how big a ship will be needed for any specific cargo nor if it will fit at all in any ship, so what it does is to let the client decide themselves what size of ship they want to use (the client would typically simulate a dock in his backyard to try to predict what volume his cargo could take) and make them pay for the service in advance. When the cargo arrives at the dock, if it fits in the planned ship Ethereum sends the ship even if it's not full. And if the cargo doesn't fit, it's just thrown in the sea. Either way they keep the money. Cargo doesn't come with any sort of automated clearance test, so it's up to their intended users to figure if the cargo is correct and have it pass all clearance tests before they can use it safely (which is never entirely certain as the case of the DAO has shown).

I hope this analogy helps making these computing paradigms less abstract. There are many approximations and concepts that I had to stretch to makes them work with the analogy and are not really exact but that should give a rough idea of the differences, and how these affect the distributed computers that implement them.
tmp2
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 31
Merit: 0


View Profile
June 22, 2016, 08:59:49 PM
 #1112

Ma man!
I am gonna go now and buy all the fucking container ships out there!
Propagandalf
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 312
Merit: 250



View Profile
June 22, 2016, 09:51:45 PM
 #1113

http://www.idni.org/ is this the main website? In theory, graphics and design means fuck all, but this one kind of puts me off investing.  Undecided The concept appears very appealing, though!
bytemuma
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 22, 2016, 10:51:17 PM
 #1114


 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


wow, this is inspiring.

Definitely the best clarification that i ever read.

Please dont rush things up, just do it perfect and the world will never be the same.


                                ███
                              █████
           ██           █████████              ██
       █████         
█████████         ██████
     ████████         
█████         █████████
         ████████       
███       █████████
            ████████              █████████
               █████       ███       █████
         
      ███       ██       █████       ██       ███
    █████            █████████            █████
█████████    █████████████    █████████
█████████    █████████████    █████████     
    █████            █████████            █████
      ███        ██      █████      ██      ███
               █████      ███       █████
            ████████              █████████
         ████████       
███       █████████
     ████████         
█████        █████████
       █████         
█████████        ██████
           ██           
█████████           ██
                              █████
                                ███
                             


Adonx.one


◆ Twitter
◆ Telegram
◆ Discord

Rw13enlib88
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1025



View Profile
June 22, 2016, 10:59:01 PM
 #1115


I can try to give you an analogy. Let's take cargo ships for instance.

I hope this analogy helps making these computing paradigms less abstract. There are many approximations and concepts that I had to stretch to makes them work with the analogy and are not really exact but that should give a rough idea of the differences, and how these affect the distributed computers that implement them.

Great analogy!

What it comes to my mind is that no real business would take this choice
Quote
And if the cargo doesn't fit, it's just thrown in the sea.
Either way they keep the money.

So, can we say...?:
Tau vs Ether
Tau = Practical for real life
Ether = Not predictable, not useful
e1ghtSpace
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001


Crypto since 2014


View Profile WWW
June 22, 2016, 11:11:50 PM
 #1116

Quote from: ohad
Hang on,
"If Turing completeness is faulty" "there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology."
Which one are you talking about? Unless you mean both?
"Turing-completeness" is to "Turing-complete" what "Madness" is to "Mad": just a way to name the quality of something being Turing-complete.

From what I've heard, if you believe in Turing completeness, pick Tau-Chain.
If you believe in software being Turing Complete, pick Ethereum.
This doesn't make sense to me. Typo?


Ok. Well I found where I got that from. It's this: (not the full post)
My ideas:

Marketing
More interviews explaining how TAU is security (Turing completeness) and expressability (The new Tau language)     (correct if this is not true)
If you believe in Turing complete: Ethereum
If you believe in Turing completeness: Tau
If you're not sure: Diversify in both

So I guess that's not a good explanation? (Sorry Rw13enlib88)
Actually I think I'm just reading into it way too much. Smiley


Quote
turing complete languages leave you helpless predicting what your code is going to do, except the "wait and see" way
Ohad, can you give us an example of this? Show us how it would work, because I don't understand how it works. Smiley

I can try to give you an analogy. Let's take cargo ships for instance.
[great explanation] 
Wow, thank you for taking the time to explain that for me. Now I understand very well.
Rw13enlib88
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1025



View Profile
June 23, 2016, 12:27:15 AM
 #1117

Turing completeness ? Turing no complete ?

sorry is not my mother language  Grin
ohad (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 897
Merit: 1000

http://idni.org


View Profile WWW
June 23, 2016, 12:35:54 AM
 #1118

Turing completeness ? Turing no complete ?

sorry is not my mother language  Grin

"turing completeness"="being turing complete"

Tau-Chain & Agoras
Rw13enlib88
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142
Merit: 1025



View Profile
June 23, 2016, 12:10:30 PM
 #1119

Turing completeness ? Turing no complete ?

sorry is not my mother language  Grin

"turing completeness"="being turing complete"

ok, so
Turing complete                             (Ether)
and
Non Turing complete  ?                  (Tau)

thejaytiesto
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358
Merit: 1012


View Profile
June 23, 2016, 01:52:03 PM
 #1120

So what I was talking about some pages ago happened: Bitfinex fucked up for some hours and people was scared. This is why im not investing on any coin that doesn't let me store the coins myself locally to hold them myself. Trusting exchanges or other people to hold coins for you is nonsense and very risky... unfortunately I don't see a way to securely invest in Tauchain.
Pages: « 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 [56] 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 ... 169 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!