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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 281140 times)
Doken
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June 17, 2016, 10:48:21 AM
 #1061

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ether-price-plumets-ethereum-dao-may-be-hacked/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dao-hacked-ethereum-crashing-in-value-tens-of-millions-allegedly-stolen-2016-6
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/ethereum-dao-hacked/9898/6

Are going to be more secure and bug free Agoras contracts based on Tau-Chain than Ethereum contracts?

Also You said:
"MLTT covers all what matters: finite computers and finite math formulas (infinite sets are welcome, even construction of the reals using Dedekind cuts – after all, this math gets into a finite book). As a result, given a syntactically well-formed code in MLTT together with a proof that “this code will halt” or “this code will never perform more than 1M operations”, we can trust the proof. The decidability guarantees that only true statements can be proved. Moreover: a machine can seek for a proof itself. This is called Automated Theorem Proving, but for complex enough problems their runtime is astronomically high. Yet, a “skeleton” of a complex proof can be supplied by human, letting the machine verifying it by trying to fill the missing parts of the proof."

It will possible use TensorFlow (opensource Google Machine Learning) with Tau-Chain and/or have a bridge with Agoras?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOXR16mLow
https://www.tensorflow.org

or will be best Tau-Chain than TensorFlow?

Will have Agora best speed and usability than https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/?

Thanks.
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June 17, 2016, 01:01:33 PM
 #1062

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ether-price-plumets-ethereum-dao-may-be-hacked/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dao-hacked-ethereum-crashing-in-value-tens-of-millions-allegedly-stolen-2016-6
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/ethereum-dao-hacked/9898/6

Are going to be more secure and bug free Agoras contracts based on Tau-Chain than Ethereum contracts?

Also You said:
"MLTT covers all what matters: finite computers and finite math formulas (infinite sets are welcome, even construction of the reals using Dedekind cuts – after all, this math gets into a finite book). As a result, given a syntactically well-formed code in MLTT together with a proof that “this code will halt” or “this code will never perform more than 1M operations”, we can trust the proof. The decidability guarantees that only true statements can be proved. Moreover: a machine can seek for a proof itself. This is called Automated Theorem Proving, but for complex enough problems their runtime is astronomically high. Yet, a “skeleton” of a complex proof can be supplied by human, letting the machine verifying it by trying to fill the missing parts of the proof."

It will possible use TensorFlow (opensource Google Machine Learning) with Tau-Chain and/or have a bridge with Agoras?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOXR16mLow
https://www.tensorflow.org

or will be best Tau-Chain than TensorFlow?

Will have Agora best speed and usability than https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/?

Thanks.

we spoke about ethereum's inability to be secure all along. and tensorflow doesn't seem to have the answers. please have a look here https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit

Tau-Chain & Agoras
4emily
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June 17, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
 #1063

Looks like it may well be a case of 'Slow and steady wins the race'  

I'll be adding to my (modest) Agoras investment Smiley
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June 17, 2016, 07:48:41 PM
 #1064

Guys, what are we going to do about this other turing incomplete crypto?
http://intheoreum.org/

Cheesy
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June 17, 2016, 08:54:28 PM
 #1065

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

we spoke about ethereum's inability to be secure all along. and tensorflow doesn't seem to have the answers. please have a look here https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit

shorter version of tau vs eth in the interview i gave to the chinese site 8btc:

The differences between Tau-Chain and Ethereum are mainly three:

1. Self defining (see image). Bitcoins and Ethereum protocols are fixed, therefore it cannot be changed in many cases, or a changes might require a fork which might be a quite insecure operation. As an example, what if someone finds a better blockchain algorithm, would Ethereum & Bitcoin be able to migrate? Or, what if Bitcoin had a built-in and secure way to deal with the block size crisis, as a special case of defining the protocol? The network should have the ability to change with time. Any trial to predict the parameters beforehand will eventually fail. For that, the code of the client itself has to come from the blockchain, and we have to be able to make sure that this code is safe, and is doing what is intended to do. This is why for being self-defining we must have our special logic, as we describe below.



2. Context separation - on Ethereum all nodes run the same code. What can therefore be the computational power of the whole Ethereum network (for code, not mining)? It cannot be no more than one single home computer. This is because all nodes must run exactly same code, as part of the process of verifying the blockchain. On Tau every user can decide which chain or application to run, given they all run the root chain, which contains the definition of the network (that might change with time, as above).

3. Logic: Ethereum uses Turing completeness, while Tau prefers consistency and decidability instead of expressibility. This tradeoff is rooted in deep logical results such as Godel's incompleteness theorems and the Halting Problem. Trust worthiness in Ethereum smart contracts can be exploited by crafted inputs, there can be both good and bad inputs so eventually highly unexpected behaviors will come along.
Tau uses a logic which is consistent and decidable (specifically, Martin-Lof Type Theory). This means that all true statements about code can be proved, and the proofs can be trusted. One can supply requirements for software, and automatically verify that given code meet those requirements. By that one can predetermine code's behavior and have a mathematical proof that it meets its requirements, so no undesired behavior can possibly happen, as long as it is formalised in Tau's language.
More advanced explanation: Turing completeness is inherently insecure because mathematically there will be always be infinitely many statements that cannot be neither proved nor disproved. Things can be provably correct or provably wrong at the same time, for example, stating "I'm able to decide whether Turing complete code is secure" (while providing some formal definition of security) is almost always a self-contradictory sentence (cf. Rice theorem).

Tau-Chain & Agoras
bitcoinuserz
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June 18, 2016, 04:42:37 AM
 #1066

Anyone know when the release for Tau will be? I see a good progress on github tho  Cool

Korean Chinese Translator

Professional Korean translator.
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June 18, 2016, 08:42:39 AM
 #1067

Anyone know when the release for Tau will be? I see a good progress on github tho  Cool

no one knows, really. but it cannot take years

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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June 18, 2016, 11:15:24 AM
 #1068

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ether-price-plumets-ethereum-dao-may-be-hacked/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dao-hacked-ethereum-crashing-in-value-tens-of-millions-allegedly-stolen-2016-6
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/ethereum-dao-hacked/9898/6

Are going to be more secure and bug free Agoras contracts based on Tau-Chain than Ethereum contracts?

Also You said:
"MLTT covers all what matters: finite computers and finite math formulas (infinite sets are welcome, even construction of the reals using Dedekind cuts – after all, this math gets into a finite book). As a result, given a syntactically well-formed code in MLTT together with a proof that “this code will halt” or “this code will never perform more than 1M operations”, we can trust the proof. The decidability guarantees that only true statements can be proved. Moreover: a machine can seek for a proof itself. This is called Automated Theorem Proving, but for complex enough problems their runtime is astronomically high. Yet, a “skeleton” of a complex proof can be supplied by human, letting the machine verifying it by trying to fill the missing parts of the proof."

It will possible use TensorFlow (opensource Google Machine Learning) with Tau-Chain and/or have a bridge with Agoras?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOXR16mLow
https://www.tensorflow.org

or will be best Tau-Chain than TensorFlow?

Will have Agora best speed and usability than https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/?

Thanks.

Decidability instead of expressability Wink

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June 18, 2016, 12:35:49 PM
 #1069

Decidability instead of expressability Wink

right, and we dont really give up expressibility, as we dont have infinite computers anyway

Tau-Chain & Agoras
lexxus
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June 18, 2016, 07:31:22 PM
 #1070

real life, 50mil USD, example of inherent insecurity of ethereum contracts.

http://vessenes.com/more-ethereum-attacks-race-to-empty-is-the-real-deal/

http://cointelegraph.com/news/dao-potentially-hacked-millions-of-ether-may-be-stolen-griff-green-says
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June 18, 2016, 07:34:11 PM
 #1071


and denial all around..
(except tau's people)

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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June 18, 2016, 07:39:24 PM
 #1072

I have been saying Tau is a hedge for Ethereum for a while now, I will be releasing another article soon in core media about it.

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June 18, 2016, 07:53:01 PM
 #1073

I have been saying Tau is a hedge for Ethereum for a while now, I will be releasing another article soon in core media about it.

 A hedge for Ethereum Huh Do you think this project really has that much potential?? Not doubting it, just seeking your point of view.

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4emily
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June 19, 2016, 06:51:24 AM
 #1074

Anyone know when the release for Tau will be? I see a good progress on github tho  Cool

no one knows, really. but it cannot take years

Hope not - I don't have years. Jus sayin' Wink
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June 19, 2016, 09:02:31 AM
 #1075

I have been saying Tau is a hedge for Ethereum for a while now, I will be releasing another article soon in core media about it.

 A hedge for Ethereum Huh Do you think this project really has that much potential?? Not doubting it, just seeking your point of view.

Hedge for ethereum means if you do not believe in Turing completeness(expressability) and you want to use decidability(Security) (Church) then Tau is probably the best option for this. I do beleive that this project will be big yes.

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June 19, 2016, 09:34:56 AM
 #1076


To me it seems like a huge chunk of the Bitcoin community also agrees upon Ethereum being fundamentally flawed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361602.0).

Same goes with the Monero community.


Anyhow, I am happy to see Tau progress with every day.
As I said before, it is to me the most interesting project out there apart from Bitcoin itself.

Good job on everyone involved!

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June 19, 2016, 12:22:45 PM
 #1077

Is there a real chance that Tau-Chain can overtake ethereum in the future?
I heard Microsoft is using ethereum. Why would it be better for them to use Tau-chain?

This has probably been answered before, sorry.
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June 19, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
 #1078

Is there a real chance that Tau-Chain can overtake ethereum in the future?
I heard Microsoft is using ethereum. Why would it be better for them to use Tau-chain?

This has probably been answered before, sorry.

If Turing completeness is faulty and cannot be used appropriatley there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology.

For example you can see some examples of software that are accidentally turing complete my favourite example is Pokemon Yellow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness#Video_games

You can see how it is exploited here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UnB1fomvAw


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June 19, 2016, 01:03:52 PM
 #1079

Is there a real chance that Tau-Chain can overtake ethereum in the future?
I heard Microsoft is using ethereum. Why would it be better for them to use Tau-chain?

This has probably been answered before, sorry.

If Turing completeness is faulty and cannot be used appropriatley there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology.

For example you can see some examples of software that are accidentally turing complete my favourite example is Pokemon Yellow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness#Video_games

You can see how it is exploited here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UnB1fomvAw


Ok, so there is no real reason for Microsoft to switch to Tau-chain at the moment?

Speaking of Turing completeness and arbitrary code execution, here is my favourite: https://youtu.be/jnZ2NNYySuE

And another done without being tool assisted:
https://youtu.be/14wqBA5Q1yc
 
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June 19, 2016, 01:45:39 PM
 #1080


the main differences I see between Tau and Ether are marketing and liquidity


Marketing
All the cryptocommunity know about Ether but only a few about TAU


Liquidity
Ethereum is on Polo, Kraken, Bitfinex, btc-e, GDAX, Yunbi, Bittrex, BitMex, Gemini, Yobit, Cex.io + 10 or more
AGRS is on Bittrex




My ideas:

Marketing
More interviews explaining how TAU is security (Turing completeness) and expressability (The new Tau language)     (correct if this is not true)
If you believe in Turing complete: Ethereum
If you believe in Turing completeness: Tau
If you're not sure: Diversify in both


Liquidity
Explain more exchanges the project and why they should add TAU
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