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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 309095 times)
ohad (OP)
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July 18, 2016, 07:10:18 AM
 #1181

Ohad your post on facebook today about compilers seems like a major shift from what you've been working on.

@ohad: can you please crosspost anything you post on Facebook here or on idni.org?
It should not be necessary to expose oneself to privacy abuse to be able to follow an open source project.

all announcements are published here too ofc

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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July 19, 2016, 05:32:09 AM
Last edit: July 30, 2016, 09:27:03 PM by yuyu123
 #1182

In case the community shall give a principal agreement for the following proposal, I wish to ask Ohad, to halt the current ongoing ICO after reaching the total sale of 21 million tokens. In addition, I wish to ask Ohad to freeze the sum of 19.74 million tokens in favor of the following specified monetary plan, or any other plans which are offered and accepted by the community.  

1. Block Rewards:
It seems that the PoW consensus paradigm will be used in Agoras. Currently there is no plan to assign coins in favor of Block rewards. The mechanics of the PoW consensus without block rewards is an experiment that was never tried before in any other coin, and is considered by many to be unfeasible for implementation (even in Bitcoin in 30 years time). At first, the Agoras economy is expected to be of a relatively low market value, and to have relatively few users and transactions. I therefore predict that the underlying network will not be sufficiently secure without the use of block rewards. I suggest assigning 5% of the total number of coins, equaling the sum of up to 2.1 million tokens, to be used for block rewards. These will spread out over many years, to ensure network security. If we avoid assigning coins to this purpose now, and all the tokens offered for sale are sold, it will be needed to "print out" additional coins over the planned maximal amount of 42 million tokens.

2. The distribution of Agoras coins to Bitcoin holders, in exchange for Bitcoin burning:
Agoras will posses superior technology which will enable it to replace Bitcoin as the number 1 cryptographic currency. The probability to achieve this goal is greater if we chose to involve the Bitcoin community in the Agoras economy, and if we can create monetary continuity between the Bitcoin and Agoras market value. To achieve this, I suggest building an automated mechanism which distributes to Bitcoin holders, up to 42% of the total number of Agoras coins, equaling up to 17.64 million tokens, in exchange for the burning of up to 21 million Bitcoins. Such mechanism will be active in time and quantity limited steps. In the creation of Bitcoin, the more we move forward on the time line, the less coins are minted, for a higher value, to a larger number of users. Differing from this mechanism, I suggest that the distribution of Agoras in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, as mentioned above, will be done in stages. During the initial stages, a small number of coins will be offered to for a reduced price, and the more we move forward on the time line, the number of coins for distribution will increase along with their price.


For example:

In the first stage:
100,000 Agoras coins will be distributed in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, according to an exchange rate representing a market value of about 210,000 Bitcoins for the entire Agoras economy. Such stage will be valid until the completion of the specified quota, or the completion of 6 months after the genesis block.

In the second stage:
270,000 Agoras coins will be distributed in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, according to an exchange rate representing a market value of about 231,000 Bitcoins for the entire Agoras economy. Such stage will be valid until the completion of the specified quota, or the completion of 7 months after the genesis block.

In the third stage:
474,000 Agoras coins will be distributed in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, according to an exchange rate representing a market value of about 254,000 Bitcoins for the entire Agoras economy. Such stage will be valid until the completion of the specified quota, or the completion of 8 months after the genesis block.

And so on…
Agoras coins which will not be distributed will be destroyed.

The initial price of Agoras, in the distribution phase in exchange for Bitcoin burning, needs to be significantly higher than the price paid by investors in the ICO, yet significantly lower than the price which represents the entire market value of the Bitcoin economy. For example: a price which represents a market value of about 210,000 Bitcoins to the entire Agoras economy.

Due to our ambition, that Agoras will replace Bitcoin as the number 1 cryptographic coin, and reach a higher market value, the final distribution phase price, must be significantly higher than the price which represents the entire value of the Bitcoin economy. For example: a price which represents a market value larger than 50 million Bitcoins to the entire Agoras economy.

I propose that the above mentioned distribution mechanism will transfer the Agoras coins only after 1000 confirmations where reached for the Bitcoin burning transaction (or any other prolonged period). This is necessary, in order to reduce the usage of such mechanism for short term speculations, and mostly, in order to reduce the lack of trust in the Bitcoin network. It might be that certain miners will try to hurt the mechanism by approving a burn transaction and afterwards move to a different chain which does not approve this transaction.



Questions and answers:

Q:
Why you suggest to freeze 19.74 million tokens and not a different number?
A:
In the post in which Ohad presents the conditions of the ICO for Agoras (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838), he designates 50% of the tokens for the ICO, and 3% of the tokens for funding post genesis development of Agoras. He does not present designation for the additional 47% which equals 19.74 million tokens.

Q:
What will happen if the ICO sells less than 21 million tokens?
A:
I suggest keeping a relative amount of 47% of the total number of Agoras coins for the suggested monetary plans. If only 10 million tokens are sold, respectively, I suggest assigning to the monetary plans only 9.4 million tokens.

Q:
What shall happen after all block reward coins are distributed?
A:
The same problem also exists in Bitcoin. The coins assigned for block rewards will be spread out over many years. For example: over the period of 40 years. In 40 years time one of the following solutions will probably be implemented:

1. Agoras will not exist and will not be needed.
2. Agoras coins will be of significant value, and the underlying network will sustain a large number of transactions, so it will be possible to base network security on commissions alone.
3. The consensus mechanism will be changed to PoS.
4. A different consensus mechanism than PoW or PoS will be found and implemented.
5. If none of the above specified scenarios materializes, and no other solution will be found, we will be forced to "print out" a small number of additional coins, in order to assign them to block rewards for additional years to come.

Q:
The tokens suggested to be frozen will not be offered for sale in the ICO, and thus less money in raised for development.
A:
Not necessarily. There are still 14 million tokens for sale and this is a vast amount. Ohad can update the tokens price to reach optimization so enough funds are raised for the sake of development.

Q:
I principally agree to the freezing of tokens for future monetary use, but not to the presented plans and numbers.
A:
 The current suggestion is only to freeze the specified tokens until the community makes a future decision over Tau, what to do with them. Tau will provide tools to create a better decision mechanism than what is presently available. All presented figures are purely intuitive, without mathematical optimization, and are aimed for demonstration purposes only. The community will be able to perform optimization for these figures over Tau.

Q:
What is the actual amount of Agoras coins that will be distributed for the sake of burning Bitcoins?
A:
One of the main goals of this plan is to create monetary continuity between Bitcoin and Agoras and to facilitate Agoras as the number 1 cryptographic currency. Therefore, we wish to allocate for distribution the amount of Agoras coins in return to the burning of 21 million Bitcoins. We have a definitive proof that not all of the allocated Agoras coins will be distributed during this process due to the fact that not all 21 million Bitcoins will be burned proportionally.
The amount of Agoras coins to be distributed during this process is dependent on the future market price of the Agoras coin. It is reasonable to assume that if the market price of Agoras will be marginal, no Bitcoins will be burned in the process, and no Agoras coins will be distributed respectively. If the market price of Agoras will be high, a small amount of Bitcoins will be burned in the process and a small amount of Agoras coins will be distributed. In case the market price of Agoras will be considerably higher (representing a market value of at least 50 million Bitcoins and more), a large amount of Bitcoins will be burned and a large amount of Agoras coins will be distributed.


* thanks to mr. coinzy for translate this proposal to English.

sotisoti
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July 19, 2016, 07:08:39 AM
 #1183

In case the community shall give a principal agreement for the following proposal, I wish to ask Ohad, to halt the current ongoing ICO after reaching the total sale of 21 million tokens. In addition, I wish to ask Ohad to freeze the sum of 19.74 million tokens in favor of the following specified monetary plan, or any other plans which are offered and accepted by the community.  

1. Block Rewards:
It seems that the PoW consensus paradigm will be used in Agoras. Currently there is no plan to assign coins in favor of Block rewards. The mechanics of the PoW consensus without block rewards is an experiment that was never tried before in any other coin, and is considered by many to be unfeasible for implementation (even in Bitcoin in 30 years time). At first, the Agoras economy is expected to be of a relatively low market value, and to have relatively few users and transactions. I therefore predict that the underlying network will not be sufficiently secure without the use of block rewards. I suggest assigning 5% of the total number of coins, equaling the sum of up to 2.1 million tokens, to be used for block rewards. These will spread out over many years, to ensure network security. If we avoid assigning coins to this purpose now, and all the tokens offered for sale are sold, it will be needed to "print out" additional coins over the planned maximal amount of 42 million tokens.

2. The distribution of Agoras coins to Bitcoin holders, in exchange for Bitcoin burning:
Agoras will posses superior technology which will enable it to replace Bitcoin as the number 1 cryptographic currency. The probability to achieve this goal is greater if we chose to involve the Bitcoin community in the Agoras economy, and if we can create monetary continuity between the Bitcoin and Agoras market value. To achieve this, I suggest building an automated mechanism which distributes to Bitcoin holders, up to 42% of the total number of Agoras coins, equaling up to 17.64 million tokens, in exchange for the burning of up to 21 million Bitcoins. Such mechanism will be active in time and quantity limited steps. In the creation of Bitcoin, the more we move forward on the time line, the less coins are minted, for a higher value, to a larger number of users. Differing from this mechanism, I suggest that the distribution of Agoras in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, as mentioned above, will be done in stages. During the initial stages, a small number of coins will be offered to for a reduced price, and the more we move forward on the time line, the number of coins for distribution will increase along with their price.


For example:

In the first stage:
100,000 Agoras coins will be distributed in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, according to an exchange rate representing a market value of about 210,000 Bitcoins for the entire Agoras economy. Such stage will be valid until the completion of the specified quota, or the completion of 6 months after the genesis block.

In the second stage:
270,000 Agoras coins will be distributed in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, according to an exchange rate representing a market value of about 231,000 Bitcoins for the entire Agoras economy. Such stage will be valid until the completion of the specified quota, or the completion of 7 months after the genesis block.

In the third stage:
474,000 Agoras coins will be distributed in exchange for the burning of Bitcoins, according to an exchange rate representing a market value of about 254,000 Bitcoins for the entire Agoras economy. Such stage will be valid until the completion of the specified quota, or the completion of 8 months after the genesis block.

And so on…
Agoras coins which will not be distributed will be destroyed.

The initial price of Agoras, in the distribution phase in exchange for Bitcoin burning, needs to be significantly higher than the price paid by investors in the ICO, yet significantly lower than the price which represents the entire market value of the Bitcoin economy. For example: a price which represents a market value of about 210,000 Bitcoins to the entire Agoras economy.

Due to our ambition, that Agoras will replace Bitcoin as the number 1 cryptographic coin, and reach a higher market value, the final distribution phase price, must be significantly higher than the price which represents the entire value of the Bitcoin economy. For example: a price which represents a market value larger than 50 million Bitcoins to the entire Agoras economy.

I propose that the above mentioned distribution mechanism will transfer the Agoras coins only after 1000 confirmations where reached for the Bitcoin burning transaction (or any other prolonged period). This is necessary, in order to reduce the usage of such mechanism for short term speculations, and mostly, in order to reduce the lack of trust in the Bitcoin network. It might be that certain miners will try to hurt the mechanism by approving a burn transaction and afterwards move to a different chain which does not approve this transaction.



Questions and answers:

Q:
Why you suggest to freeze 19.74 million tokens and not a different number?

A:
In the post in which Ohad presents the conditions of the ICO for Agoras (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838), he designates 50% of the tokens for the ICO, and 3% of the tokens for funding post genesis development of Agoras. He does not present designation for the additional 47% which equals 19.74 million tokens.


Q:
What will happen if the ICO sells less than 21 million tokens?

A:
I suggest keeping a relative amount of 47% of the total number of Agoras coins for the suggested monetary plans. If only 10 million tokens are sold, respectively, I suggest assigning to the monetary plans only 9.4 million tokens.


Q:
What shall happen after all block reward coins are distributed?

A:
The same problem also exists in Bitcoin. The coins assigned for block rewards will be spread out over many years. For example: over the period of 40 years. In 40 years time one of the following solutions will probably be implemented:

1. Agoras will not exist and will not be needed.
2. Agoras coins will be of significant value, and the underlying network will sustain a large number of transactions, so it will be possible to base network security on commissions alone.
3. The consensus mechanism will be changed to PoS.
4. A different consensus mechanism than PoW or PoS will be found and implemented.
5. If none of the above specified scenarios materializes, and no other solution will be found, we will be forced to "print out" a small number of additional coins, in order to assign them to block rewards for additional years to come.

Q:
The tokens suggested to be frozen will not be offered for sale in the ICO, and thus less money in raised for development.
A:
Not necessarily. There are still 14 million tokens for sale and this is a vast amount. Ohad can update the tokens price to reach optimization so enough funds are raised for the sake of development.

Q:
I principally agree to the freezing of tokens for future monetary use, but not to the presented plans and numbers.

A:
 The current suggestion is only to freeze the specified tokens until the community makes a future decision over Tau, what to do with them. Tau will provide tools to create a better decision mechanism than what is presently available. All presented figures are purely intuitive, without mathematical optimization, and are aimed for demonstration purposes only. The community will be able to perform optimization for these figures over Tau.

I am opposed to the idea of burning Bitcoin. We are not counterparty anyway.

Bitrated user: sotisoti.
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July 19, 2016, 07:47:11 AM
Last edit: July 19, 2016, 08:03:06 AM by steveds
 #1184

lmfao...i was about to shit in my pants when i saw satoshi posting in this thread...lol then i saw it was sotisoti Tongue
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July 19, 2016, 09:25:38 AM
 #1185



I am opposed to the idea of burning Bitcoin. We are not counterparty anyway.

contrary to Counterparty, which is complementary product to bitcoin, Agoras can be alternative coin to bitcoin and can replace it, so burning Bitcoin for Agoras is much more sensible than in Counterparty issue. 
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July 19, 2016, 09:30:48 AM
 #1186

yuyu123 discussed those ideas with me few times, and i promised him that i'll respect the community's opinion. my plan (unless we all decide otherwise) is to let those considerations arise over tau, and we collaboratively build agoras using it (this is exactly what tau is built for, collaborative social&sw dev platform). coupled with that, the belief that once we reach that stage of developing agoras together, there will still be left many coins for sale, probably more than 50%, which will happen either naturally or by raising the price.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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July 19, 2016, 11:46:11 AM
 #1187

yuyu123

point for you for the PoW

the other things almost makes no sense.
burning? What about the team getting paid so they can eat?
You're planning an ICO which is already started, and you want to move all the specfications.

sounds like you should create a new coin
If you make a great team and clear specifications,  I could invest in it.
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July 20, 2016, 05:18:06 AM
Last edit: July 20, 2016, 05:37:28 AM by yuyu123
 #1188

What about the team getting paid so they can eat?


I've already referred to this issue:

"
Q:
The tokens suggested to be frozen will not be offered for sale in the ICO, and thus less money in raised for development.
A:
Not necessarily. There are still 14 million tokens for sale and this is a vast amount. Ohad can update the tokens price to reach optimization so enough funds are raised for the sake of development.
"




You're planning an ICO which is already started, and you want to move all the specfications.

We have to Assign coins to be used for block rewards if we don't want to "print out" additional coins over the planned maximal amount of 42 million tokens. The second plan for distribution of Agoras coins to Bitcoin holders, in exchange for Bitcoin burning is optional, but brings us great opportunity to involve the Bitcoin community in the Agoras economy and get many more users to the new coin.

The original ICO specifications are not changing as I wrote here:

"
Q:
Why you suggest to freeze 19.74 million tokens and not a different number?

A:
In the post in which Ohad presents the conditions of the ICO for Agoras (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg10403838#msg10403838), he designates 50% of the tokens for the ICO, and 3% of the tokens for funding post genesis development of Agoras. He does not present designation for the additional 47% which equals 19.74 million tokens.
"



sounds like you should create a new coin
If you make a great team and clear specifications,  I could invest in it.

I think the principle of monetary continuity needs to be a standard in any new cryptocurrency aiming to achieve mass adoption among the crypto community 
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July 20, 2016, 11:52:29 AM
 #1189

dude,
the only point you made was about PoW
If you wanna include PoW reward, need to agree on that first and then start discussing where it's gonna come from
1) no need to change the ICO. its ok as it is.
2) No need to give AGRS for free, it's interesting enought, so just buy them
3) 2% inflation is not necesary for itself


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July 20, 2016, 01:02:53 PM
 #1190

dude,
the only point you made was about PoW
If you wanna include PoW reward, need to agree on that first and then start discussing where it's gonna come from
1) no need to change the ICO. its ok as it is.
2) No need to give AGRS for free, it's interesting enought, so just buy them
3) 2% inflation is not necesary for itself

what i have in mind regarding pow is to have a "miners tax", a dynamic percentage that'll be used for mining reward, to be able to be changed with time. unlike implicit tax-by-inflation like in bitcoin. but that's only my personal opinion -- we'll do it all over tau.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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July 20, 2016, 08:04:14 PM
 #1191

dude,
the only point you made was about PoW
If you wanna include PoW reward, need to agree on that first and then start discussing where it's gonna come from
1) no need to change the ICO. its ok as it is.
2) No need to give AGRS for free, it's interesting enought, so just buy them
3) 2% inflation is not necesary for itself

what i have in mind regarding pow is to have a "miners tax", a dynamic percentage that'll be used for mining reward, to be able to be changed with time. unlike implicit tax-by-inflation like in bitcoin. but that's only my personal opinion -- we'll do it all over tau.


Cryptocurrency with "tax" couldn't ever be used as store of value instrument, and no exchange would add it. It is also a security and  ideological backdoor, as it is a mechanism that can take money from your wallet without having your private key.
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July 21, 2016, 02:38:07 PM
 #1192

dude,
the only point you made was about PoW
If you wanna include PoW reward, need to agree on that first and then start discussing where it's gonna come from
1) no need to change the ICO. its ok as it is.
2) No need to give AGRS for free, it's interesting enought, so just buy them
3) 2% inflation is not necesary for itself

what i have in mind regarding pow is to have a "miners tax", a dynamic percentage that'll be used for mining reward, to be able to be changed with time. unlike implicit tax-by-inflation like in bitcoin. but that's only my personal opinion -- we'll do it all over tau.

"tax" might be strong word here, but I think you are referring to currently what Dash has, right?!
Miner gets for example, 80% reward, 20% goes to development, marketing, etc.
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July 21, 2016, 02:39:01 PM
 #1193

dude,
the only point you made was about PoW
If you wanna include PoW reward, need to agree on that first and then start discussing where it's gonna come from
1) no need to change the ICO. its ok as it is.
2) No need to give AGRS for free, it's interesting enought, so just buy them
3) 2% inflation is not necesary for itself

what i have in mind regarding pow is to have a "miners tax", a dynamic percentage that'll be used for mining reward, to be able to be changed with time. unlike implicit tax-by-inflation like in bitcoin. but that's only my personal opinion -- we'll do it all over tau.

"tax" might be strong word here, but I think you are referring to currently what Dash has, right?!

He is referring to a deflationary model of supply.

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July 21, 2016, 03:47:02 PM
 #1194

dude,
the only point you made was about PoW
If you wanna include PoW reward, need to agree on that first and then start discussing where it's gonna come from
1) no need to change the ICO. its ok as it is.
2) No need to give AGRS for free, it's interesting enought, so just buy them
3) 2% inflation is not necesary for itself

what i have in mind regarding pow is to have a "miners tax", a dynamic percentage that'll be used for mining reward, to be able to be changed with time. unlike implicit tax-by-inflation like in bitcoin. but that's only my personal opinion -- we'll do it all over tau.

what i foresee

Bitcoin since halving has 4.17% inflation in the first year 
Bitcoin since halving has 4% inflation in the second year
Bitcoin since halving has 3.85% inflation in the third year   

Bitcoin miners get the inflation (new money created) + transaction fees (depends on transaction amounts and density)

Tau since creation has 0% inflation
Tau miners get the "miners tax" (dynamic % of transaction)

The point of PoW is to motivate the people to invest in the network (asics, farms)
the question is: will be enought "motivation" to invest in Tau network? (enought transactions?)

If people invest big sums of money into the Tau network, Tau will be in the next paradox

Let's imagine we set a 0.25% "miners tax" and miners are making money and users are happy because is not expensive.

If the price goes up, the miners will make much more money and people will ask for a lower "miners tax".
Then we move the dynamic % down and everybody is still happy. Miners still profitable and users have cheaper transactions.

But, if the price goes down, (which is gonna happen because of different adoption phases we gonna pass trought)
the situation will change.
Miners will complain they're not profitable anymore, that will lead to less miners, less security, more centralization of the hash power
or a rise in the dynamic %.
If you rise the %, people will found more expensive to use it, (and it's already losing value), therefore some of the investors will sell,
getting back to previous point.
Miners will complain they're not profitable anymore.
Rise the % or lose some miners...


The point is, if choosed this way of mantaining the network, we need to be very careful at the time of selecting the % and at the time of moving it (mainly downwards, cos then raise it it's gonna be a mess)
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July 21, 2016, 04:12:37 PM
 #1195

can add to the equations another parameter: how many miners do we want? given the cost per hash, we can calculate how much it costs to tamper the network (with e.g. 51% attack). security was and will always be an economical consideration. we have to make it unprofitable for the attacker. and ofc who will crunch the considerations and the numbers with no mistakes better than tau

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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July 21, 2016, 04:15:38 PM
 #1196

But, if the price goes down, (which is gonna happen because of different adoption phases we gonna pass trought)
the situation will change.
Miners will complain they're not profitable anymore, that will lead to less miners, less security, more centralization of the hash power
or a rise in the dynamic %.

they will probably want to buy some kind of hedging. and this can be elevated to giving risk-free interest without printing new money (!). that's one of my old plans for agoras, i'll write it down soon. is all about a famous black&scholes strategy that recover the "value of time".

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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July 22, 2016, 08:31:29 AM
 #1197

"tax" might be strong word here, but I think you are referring to currently what Dash has, right?!
Miner gets for example, 80% reward, 20% goes to development, marketing, etc.

Just to clear up: in Dash Miners get 40%, 40% goes to Masternodes and 20% is spent according to the governance system decisions (masternode voting)

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July 22, 2016, 09:33:40 AM
 #1198

can add to the equations another parameter: how many miners do we want? given the cost per hash, we can calculate how much it costs to tamper the network (with e.g. 51% attack). security was and will always be an economical consideration. we have to make it unprofitable for the attacker. and ofc who will crunch the considerations and the numbers with no mistakes better than tau

Do agree, security was and will always be an economical consideration.

Just random thoughts

The ROI of attacking the network goes up as the price goes up if the hash rate stays stable.
Which it shouldnt, because more miners should come if the "miners tax" stays stable...

If the miners tax stays fixed it could make an accordion effect on miners/hash power/price but that changes once the miners have invest a lot of money and they have a huge fix cost, so they have to stay in market yes or yes just waiting for better times...
Then they will have to ask to rise in the miners tax.


But, if the price goes down, (which is gonna happen because of different adoption phases we gonna pass trought)
the situation will change.
Miners will complain they're not profitable anymore, that will lead to less miners, less security, more centralization of the hash power
or a rise in the dynamic %.

they will probably want to buy some kind of hedging. and this can be elevated to giving risk-free interest without printing new money (!). that's one of my old plans for agoras, i'll write it down soon. is all about a famous black&scholes strategy that recover the "value of time".

miners using options to protect their profits?

not sure if I understood it really but blow my mind. I'll wait till you write it down to re-think about it.

but risk-free concept sounds quite strange for me.
"risk-free" investments are bonds, which in my opinion is not true anymore.
There is always risk associated to the project. (different points of view in the community/team, the leader leaving the project)
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July 22, 2016, 12:51:17 PM
Last edit: July 22, 2016, 01:38:32 PM by ohad
 #1199

The ROI of attacking the network goes up as the price goes up if the hash rate stays stable.
Which it shouldnt, because more miners should come if the "miners tax" stays stable...

If the miners tax stays fixed it could make an accordion effect on miners/hash power/price but that changes once the miners have invest a lot of money and they have a huge fix cost, so they have to stay in market yes or yes just waiting for better times...
Then they will have to ask to rise in the miners tax.

why do miners prefer to mine in pools? they have very good reason: the volatility of their income is terribly impractically huge if they mine alone, even though the average revenue is theoretically the same (if neglecting some more factors). so if you have an ability to keep the expected average profit but significantly reduce volatility, that's what what rational players usually do.
same applies wrt the volatility of the price.

but risk-free concept sounds quite strange for me.
"risk-free" investments are bonds, which in my opinion is not true anymore.
There is always risk associated to the project. (different points of view in the community/team, the leader leaving the project)

imagine we have an agrs/btc options market and also a spot market (i.e. being able to convert agrs to btc and vice versa). then if one sells (shorts) a call option, and in the same time buys (long) the corresponding put option, and also buys the underlying assets (all with matching amounts), you'll have a profit for sure (neglecting commissions and other frictions). this profit should theoretically be equal to the so-called "risk-free interest" in the market, but more precisely, it really is the "alternative cost", i.e. how much people believe they'll profit if their money was not locked for a given amount of time. this technique is as old as black&scholes model

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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July 23, 2016, 03:21:00 PM
 #1200

hello I sent some agoras to omniwallet and now I want to test to send some out there. but I cant becouse this error:

Your 'From Address' does not have enough BTC to complete this transaction. Please select a different address or send enough BTC to cover the Total transaction cost.

Must I have BTC in order to cashout my agoras ? is this normal ? first time I see I need btc to send some alts... This confuses me.
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