My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.
because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.
If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.
People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.
If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.
Not everything has to be done because it will be "better". This is a free country, bitcoins were designed in part to allow more freedom in money, if these people want to use bitcoins in this manner it will not hurt you so why not let them try to make a little money this way? Or are you just jealous you didn't think of it and/or have the resources to pull it off first? *edit Peter, no I'm not jealous of thinking of an idea I would have been against in the first place, its a bit ridiculous of you to suggest that. The freedom of bitcoins comes because the quantity can't be controlled by any person or organisation, leaving bitcoins free to find fair market value. Unless the Winklebros ETF can demonstrate it backs every share of its ETF with real bitcoins then I won't trust it because it will be a way to tamper with the number of bitcoins and hence tamper with the value of bitcoins. If real bitcoins I hold in my own wallet are devalued because the quantity of apparent bitcoins has been 'inflated' then it does hurt me, it devalues my bitcoins. |
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There was quite a big thread on this in the speculation forum yesterday, wheres it gone to  |
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Not speaking for myself but people are panicking
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My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.
because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.
If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.
People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.
If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.
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N . S . A. Notice
Prism system alert. This activity has been logged. The matrix has you.
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I reckon price could almost stay flat until it meets the bottom of the channel, bit like this  |
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Hi rebuilder managed to take a look at your charts finally. Very interesting, I don't necessarily think my channel is more valid than your alternatives. Just hows how open to interpretation it all is. Like staring at inkblots or something.
The chart I offered works pretty well for me though and since I started following that channel it has helped me make some decent predictions eg when we broke out the top of the channel I called the price to 'shoot to the moon' which it pretty much did, although didn't get quite as high as I hoped it would. If we break back down into that channel I'm expecting a slow meander until we encounter the bottom trendline which is another prediction, but only if we break through that support at the top line first.
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Unfortunately I can't see the other images in the reply as my works filter has blocked them for some reason, will have another look this evening at home.
RyNinDaCleM has done a good job explaining why i think that is the long term channel though. Its really just as simple as thats where we keep finding support and resistance. If that channel lasts a few more years we'll be seeing much higher bitcoin prices by then, I estimate the channel increases by 10 times every 16 months!
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Those are delusional libertarians who believe in the mantra: they laugh at you, they fight you ,then you win.
Yes Bitcoin network would still exist and mined but valued in the single digits.What a win it would be!
Oh Rampion would cry from happiness if that would happen. 1000's of Bitcoins worth 5 cents each and not a person in the world who would want to touch them anymore. He would call that the war has been won. I believe "not a person in the world who would want to touch them" is very inaccurate. There are lots of people who don't believe the "legitimacy" delusion, people who is not swallowing the BS they are fed with. People who appreciate the ability to do whatever they want with their money, regardless of what some regulators/policemen/government thugs say. Are you worried by Bitcoin going to single digits, even sub dollar? I explained many times, with figures, why I believe in the long term Bitcoin will be more expensive than now, even in a global ban scenario. Black market economy is huge, so if your only worry is the exchange rate, I won't worry so much. Of course you will have to learn how to trade it outside the traditional channels in that scenario. Then, I will say something that may be very impopular in the speculation sub forum: if Bitcoin goes to single digits but it survives, serving as a tool for those that cannot move their money freely in order to bypass unfair regulations, I will be happy. Sure, I would have lost a lot of the value I threw at Bitcoin, which is not negligible - I can tell you I could leave very good during two years with the amount of fiat I invested in BTC. Still, if I'd lose it I wouldn't be starving, and I'm very conscious from the very first moment that this is a super high risk investment. Fiat denominated profit is a nice bonus, but it was never my goal when I decided to participate in this experiment. I very much prefer being free than being rich. For me Bitcoin is a matter of freedom and principles, this is about challenging the rotten financial system, not about getting rich quick. And still, as I said earlier, in the long run I don't see BTC going to sub-dollar unless a) a superior crypto with the same characteristics (trust-free, decentralized) takes over, or b) a fatal flaw in the protocol is discovered. Let the party begin, I hope you were never so foolish to believe that the people pulling the strings in the financial world would leave something that truly endangers their position alone. Great post Rampion, I'm with you I'd happily continue using bitcoins if they were priced in single digits. The way the economy is looking I'd say its much more likely that fiat currency will be the one losing all its value. Interesting fact, the Federal Reserve has caused the US$ to devalue by 98% since it was created 100 years ago. Inflation is how to rob the masses without them realising. |
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Fucking banks. My cards have been blocked because of suspected fraud after legitimately purchasing train tickets (which for some reason the bank have decided look suspicious). This is not to mention many times I've had online transactions held until I phone and confirm I intended it. Is this to protect us or to in fact monitor and police all our transactions. Sooner the world moves to decentralised money the better.
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I voted 85 to 100 but really i think there needs to be an option for 100 or higher. Theres no reason we have to go below $100
Plenty of reasons, but seems you rather stick your head in the sand. My head isn't in the sand. This could be the lowest point until September because believe it or not, the price could go up from here, strange though that concept may seem. Personally I think a price rise is more likely than the price going below $30 for example. |
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I reckon strong support from channel AND the round number of $100. double support.
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I voted 85 to 100 but really i think there needs to be an option for 100 or higher. Theres no reason we have to go below $100
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Have posted my latest long term channel in my blog. At the moment we are just above a long term support line and also finding support because of the round number of $100. Theres no guarantee the support will hold though and lower prices could materialize in the future.
Personally I'm not buying or selling at the moment, I'm on the fence waiting to see which way it looks like it will go. If we get below $100 I may sell bitcoins and hope to buy back more cheaper later on, if support holds and we stay above $100 I may buy more at some point on assumption price will increase further.
If I didn't have any bitcoins at all I'd buy some no matter what the price but reserve some fiat for possible future cheaper purchase.
Quite a tough call right now though
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Ben Bernanke is bluffing. It is extremely unlikely they will do this because they seem to prefer to have a hyperinflation rather than a great depression. It seems likely the FED wants everyone to beg them to keep the cheap money flowing so they can appear to be knights in shining armor stepping in again to save the system rather than be viewed as the irresponsible bankers that caused the mess.
The major central banks are playing tag team at the moment (US$ UK£ euro, yen), taking turns to inflate their monetary supply (with exception of the euro for now) so the can all fall together. One unwelcome (or welcome depending on your view) side effect is that inflation is being exported to developing countries and so far not being felt strongly at home. In the global markets as they are today it doesn't even really matter which central bank is doing the easing. As long as at least one of the main central banks has their foot on the gas the game keeps going.
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Thought I'd share my latest thoughts on the long term channel with the speculation community. Heres the long term channel I'm talking about, which is using all MtGox US$ data on a log scale  I'd say we are finding strong support at the top of that channel, will we stay above it? -- http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/long-term-channel/ |
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Bitcoin is crashing I don't think thats a given, price looks pretty flat last couple of months. If it goes down to those levels I wont be selling I'll be buying |
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Seriously?
Who the hell is getting together every Sunday morning and offloading a SHIT TON of BitCoin? This is the third week in a row that someone, or a group of people, have sold a ton of BitCoin and then start buying them back almost immediately. They pick Sunday morning, the best time to do manipulation.
This is pure manipulation, not a panic sale, and this is the third week in a row.
yup, its seems to be a sunday thing. . . wonder whos doing it I wonder who would want to manipulate the price down? Perhaps the same ones who would rather we all use central banking unbacked fiat money. Its only logical if you have a monopoly to manipulate any competition. I'm guessing large banks are behind that and of course gold and silver manipulations. |
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