Well, we can't fool ourselves into thinking they are unaware of it or that they don't see it as a threat (and won't eventually come after it when other indirect methods fail - and they will). That would be silly. Banking is the center of the western world and all the wars that go with it. Ideally as money leaves that system and goes into systems that are more compassionate, we will see change. It will take time, though their system of banking as currently constructed is in danger of popping. There only hope is to have people believe the upward stock market and growing money supply and zero % interest rates are a good thing. That seems to be changing in many peoples minds. I'd say they are losing the propaganda war. Between now and next war that system can pop and I hope enough people high up in the military don't go along with another BS war. So, as that system goes it might really be too late to act on the BTC one. After all, it is going to look terrible going after a system that is holding value, people based, etc. Luckily there isn't a "new world order" or one world government to make things easier for these criminals. We have the Universe on our side.  Regarding the point of this thread, BTC is too much to just analyze with a trendline. Though I favor watching it with a logarithmic one... IAS I like your thinking, there still seems to be lots of signs that the push for global government is still on track though and theres still a mass of braindead sheeple happily going along with it and totally unaware they are being robbed blind by the system. (to fund wars etc as you say). Truth is a powerful force though and the internet is shining a lot of truth and light on us. I really get the feeling (and from listening to a variety of people with some "inside" information - podcasts and the like - if you believe them.) that there are people high up that are not at all going along with TPTB. There really is no one in charge but there are some people (or should I say corporations) that can exert GREAT might. The thing is, China, Russia and other countries have something to say about it. For sure there are proxy wars going on as well. There certainly is still a push for Global Government, no doubt. And looking at their control slowly slipping really does make me think a false flag (yes, another one) is in the works. But, they rarely go off perfectly and the longer they wait, one might argue, the more we see (due to better technology, rising consciousness, etc.) No fear and going forward. Fear has been a controlling mechanism for too long. And you can just see how people are learning to let it go, slowly, but it is happening. If you find something you believe in, even if it is still a "part" of the system (a bit like Bitcoin, in a regulated sense anyway), it doesn't matter. You put your heart and soul into it and don't look back. We are all a part of this revolution, be it of the mind, the BTC, or whatever... Yes I think there was a lot more unity among TPTB not so long ago than there appears now. Cracks beginning to form. The tighter they try and enclose us in their fist the more we slip through their fingers like sand. A false flag does seem possible. Personally I was half expecting a dirty bomb in London or something like that during the olympics, thankfully it never materialised. Maybe they are aware its harder and harder to get away with it in the internet age. |
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Gold has been mined out steadily year over year. We know gold is scarce and we also know there is more in the ground.
No one is sure about the gold supply. But every bitcoiners know the supply of BTC.
Yes and no but it is the reason for the gold crunch this month. You see gold, like every resource follows the Hubbert Curve. Peak gold was projected to be some time around 2020. Now what happened was that gold futures piled up to such an extent that it became questionable if it really is this early, not later. So speculative interest coming form the assumption of declining supply rates after that date went away and the price plummeted. Of course gold-bugs will tell you that was because market manipulation or "fake" gold futures for gold which isn't really there, but we should know better But this does not mean that peak gold won't happen within the next decades so the gold price will not deteriorate completely. That argument would only hold water if gold was a commodity that gets used up, like oil. However gold is not really a commodity, it is primarily really money, which is why central banks hold it. Almost all the gold ever dug up is still available to go to market, therefore there is a huge potential supply of it that far outweighs any new gold coming to market from mines. The laws of supply and demand should ensure that when more demand is there then the price goes up accordingly. Where it all goes wrong is in fact what gold bugs will correctly tell you, that in the futures market the big commercials can sell as much gold as they want without having to actually possess the metal they are selling. Despite the fact they are not really selling physical metal, this actually is permitted and the amounts are vast. This mechanism enables them to manipulate the spot price almost to any degree they choose. In other words the spot price of gold is not really much to do with a physical market. And in fact because gold is not really a commodity it has no business being in a futures market in the first place. |
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OpenCoin lol...is the most contradictory use of the word Open I have ever heard.
LOLz talk about misleading eh?
The name itself...lol
Its a blatent attempt to deceive  |
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For the record, anyone who thinks Ripple is a serious threat to bitcoin is off their rocker. IM not so Humble O. But lack of a threat doesn't mean I can't make fun of it. Shh, we're supposed to ignore that part, and *trust* that they will one day become open source and decentralized  I know that I'm off my rocker! Perhaps ripple isn't a serious threat to bitcoins, I can hope anyway. It looks like there is so much wrong with it that it will commit suicide without any help. I'm worried about the trend it is setting though. If ripple doesn't work, banks will be back and keep pushing variations of these sort of schemes, and the mainstream media will push it to the masses of braindead sheeple, once mass adoption happens then we're stuck with it. It analogous to the way the first two versions of a central bank in the USA were defeated. The bankers didn't give up and got their federal reserve, 3rd time lucky. And now lucky us, we have inherited a world where debt is our money and is backed by nothing tangible. |
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Yes I don't think XRP will do anything to "crush" BTC. It's even more different and has different kind of people willing to invest in it.
But thats also the thing the people who feel threatened by it don't get. I don't really know how much it will really affect BTC, but from how things look now it's worse than before LTC took off.
I agree on gox also, although not short term, since the exactly kind of thinking process makes somebody think we "need" gox to maintain a good price, don't ask me for the rationale on this it's mainly irrational - anything changing the status quo is potential bad news for those guys.
XRP potential to crush bitcoin would be very hard to understand unless you know, for example why the price of gold and silver has been crushed during a period where all the main fiat currencies are increasing their quantity of money through quantitative easing. Its too complex to go into much detail here but essentially, many people who don't hold gold think they do when all they really have is an IOU. The war between using debt as money and using commodity type monetary assests, things that hold value, has gone on probably for centuries. You cant compare Litecoin with Ripples, Litecoin is real money fixed in quantity, potentially good as a store of value just like bitcoins. It is the power to create money that allows central banks to steal wealth through inflation, just as XRP quantity can be inflated by the Opencoin controllers, this gives Opencoin the power to steal wealth through inflation. The temptation will be too much to resist. Money power preys on weak willed greed, its only human. Debt is a way to enslave. Ripple is a way to replace bitcoins with debt It's not debt which you ought to be concerned about but compounding interest on debt. Debt is only natural and it will not go away as currency will not go away. Debt is natural but using it as money isn't. Loans should be made from accumulated capital not credit conjured out of thin air. Creditors should accept the risk of losing their bad loans not getting bailed out. I'm curious who the investors are behind ripple? I know of google are funding opencoin, but who else? Is it the banks? |
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Well, we can't fool ourselves into thinking they are unaware of it or that they don't see it as a threat (and won't eventually come after it when other indirect methods fail - and they will). That would be silly. Banking is the center of the western world and all the wars that go with it. Ideally as money leaves that system and goes into systems that are more compassionate, we will see change. It will take time, though their system of banking as currently constructed is in danger of popping. There only hope is to have people believe the upward stock market and growing money supply and zero % interest rates are a good thing. That seems to be changing in many peoples minds. I'd say they are losing the propaganda war. Between now and next war that system can pop and I hope enough people high up in the military don't go along with another BS war. So, as that system goes it might really be too late to act on the BTC one. After all, it is going to look terrible going after a system that is holding value, people based, etc. Luckily there isn't a "new world order" or one world government to make things easier for these criminals. We have the Universe on our side. Regarding the point of this thread, BTC is too much to just analyze with a trendline. Though I favor watching it with a logarithmic one... IAS I like your thinking, there still seems to be lots of signs that the push for global government is still on track though and theres still a mass of braindead sheeple happily going along with it and totally unaware they are being robbed blind by the system. (to fund wars etc as you say). Truth is a powerful force though and the internet is shining a lot of truth and light on us. |
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Afbitcoins - You linked a 55 page doc  , (dated Oct 2012). I don't have time right now to read the doc (thanks for linking it, hard to believe I see no mention of that doc anywhere that I've seen.) I see 3 mentions of the word threat, 2 of which say anything, as follows: p.33 It is important to stress that this chapter is not intended to be a fully-fledged analysis; rather it
is a first attempt at providing a basis for discussion on this issue. Largely, this is a result of the
uncertainty surrounding virtual currency schemes and the lack of reliable information and data.
From the analysis of the existing information it is already possible to draw an initial conclusion:
it is very complicated to obtain a clear overview ofthe situation regarding virtual currency schemes
at this stage. Almost all of the information that can be found is on the internet, written in blogs
or on web pages where personal bias cannot be excluded (see, for instance, the references listed
in the Annex). With the exception of a few articles from respectable media sources or economics
journals, it is almost impossible to find any comprehensive papers on this issue, since no
international organisations have published statements. A similar problem exists with regard to the
quantitative information and statistics that would be needed in order to assess the speed at which
these virtual currency schemes are growing and the point at which they could become a real threat.
The quantitative information that is available is not extensive and is usually provided by the
respective scheme owner.. p. 37 Finally, it isimportant to safeguard a currency’srole as a unit of account, associety reaps benefits
froma well-defined and stablemonetary unitforits economic transactions, irrespective ofthe issuer
or the format in which money is issued. Virtual currency schemes could lead to the emergence
of multiple units of account in the real economy. Virtual currency scheme owners could then be
tempted to issue excessive amountsin order to profit from the placement of these funds. A change
in views about the creditworthiness of these issuers (and the associated virtual exchange rate
variability) would threaten to undermine the role of money in providing a single unit of account as
a common financial denominator for the whole economy Interesting and great news (This is what BTC is about...) edit - Got to love the name of the pdf - "Virtual Currency Schemes"  Yes should have said they see it as a 'potential' threat. It is a long document, quite entertaining in some ways, they refer to fiat money as real money. And that only if central banks issue it is it proper money etc. obviously i'm paraphrasing. |
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Maybe you can answer a simple question, what are you trending? I mean, what is BTC? Currency, Commodity, Stock, disruptive technology, protocol, etc.
TA is great, we all use it, but to overly depend on it with something that we can't easily define, is cheapening what it is that is BTC. What if some really big news comes out? e.g., Pay Pal becomes funding mechanism for BTC. What do you think will happen to the "price" of BTC?
TA has been said to basically describe human behavior (e.g. support lines). Now, since there are so many variables with BTC (see that short list above), again, it is dangerous to try to pigeon hole what BTC is.
Be very very careful over emphasizing TA and yet know when to use it.
From the perspective of the chart it is quite simple, the trend is the price of a bitcoin in US dollars as traded on MT Gox exchange. Bitcoin is not currency or commodity, it is money, like gold and silver. Unlike currencies it will also function as a store of value. I'm not going to defend TA yet again, if you don't like it, then perhaps you shouldn't bother with the speculation forum. I said "TA is great, we all use it, ..." so I'm not smacking it down and I USE IT. I think my point was clear. We don't know what BTC is, not even the government will define it for us. But you know. Maybe you should not be so touchy about a question, not even a criticism... I was just bringing up the Black Swan nature of BTC and not asking you to defend TA, just merely open up a bit regarding the possibilities. I don't really follow why you want the govt to define bitcoins ! The less the govt has to do with it the better. But like I said, for my purposes I mainly focus on the monetary aspects of it which for speculating on price is all I feel the need to consider. Sorry if my reply seemed touchy not your fault. Thx as I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. Regarding the government defining BTC: If they define what we are, then we can start laying the groundwork and developing a plan (expansion, legal, tax, etc.) for going forward. I do see your point though and I agree the less government the better. But the danger is that they leave things gray and pick and attack as they choose. Now, maybe this doesn't hold up in a court of law (but who knows since corruption runs deep) but it could slow us down due to raising the fear level. That said, it is beautiful how even with the uncertainty of the DHS thing, the price quickly rebounded. Get some popcorn and enjoy the show... (Really, no matter what happens - though I think we are mostly ok - this is one hell of a ride. It is not everyday (or decade or century) that something like this comes along and challenges the established "norms"/corruption  ) I predict various govts of the world will attempt to block bitcoins in a selection of inept ways. Everything the govt tries to do usually has the opposite effect and in this case will probably just make bitcoins stronger and more resilient. Part of their strategy might be through defining various dubious legal definitions which won't make a difference. I'm more worried about what bankers will attempt. In my view various internet debt based schemes will be pushed onto us and they will keep trying and trying different variations until they succeed. Ripples being the best example at this time. They will try and undermine or control bitcoins via deceipt and manipulation replacing bitcoins with IOU's for bitcoins and putting hidden quantities of bitcoins locked into gateways. I held the same belief, regarding governments attacking BTC, but I'm recently changed my stance. I don't think governments can react any where quick enough to stop BTC. It has been around for 4 years and just now does the DHS make a very very minor move, which doesn't even look like it was against BTC. Just simply Gox missed something. Banks - I don't think BTC is the threat we think it is to banks, not anytime soon. Banks make their money from fraction reserver lending, and BTC, in its current carnation is not at all a threat to that. Maybe that develops, but it is no where near touching the banks pockets. Rather, I see banks using it to improve the speed of international transactions and such. BTC is a threat to credit card companies and companies like Western Union (the latter of which is doing a good job failing on its own and the former seems to be getting on consumers nerves with their near monopolistic control on interest rates.) But even the credit card companies make their money on loans, so again, I don't see BTC effecting them anytime soon, in that regard. Now, as BTC evolves I do see things growing from it which naturally takes out unfair monetary business practices. We are so early in the game. What happens when BTC shows that a deflationary currency is the way to go? That is a threat to the banks! But, by the time it shows it's head, the writing is on the wall. Really, BTC is a gift from the Universe/Nature, of which we are a part. We were just the corrective mechanism allowed to plant it. The european central bank has admitted bitcoin is a threat to banking http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf |
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Maybe you can answer a simple question, what are you trending? I mean, what is BTC? Currency, Commodity, Stock, disruptive technology, protocol, etc.
TA is great, we all use it, but to overly depend on it with something that we can't easily define, is cheapening what it is that is BTC. What if some really big news comes out? e.g., Pay Pal becomes funding mechanism for BTC. What do you think will happen to the "price" of BTC?
TA has been said to basically describe human behavior (e.g. support lines). Now, since there are so many variables with BTC (see that short list above), again, it is dangerous to try to pigeon hole what BTC is.
Be very very careful over emphasizing TA and yet know when to use it.
From the perspective of the chart it is quite simple, the trend is the price of a bitcoin in US dollars as traded on MT Gox exchange. Bitcoin is not currency or commodity, it is money, like gold and silver. Unlike currencies it will also function as a store of value. I'm not going to defend TA yet again, if you don't like it, then perhaps you shouldn't bother with the speculation forum. I said "TA is great, we all use it, ..." so I'm not smacking it down and I USE IT. I think my point was clear. We don't know what BTC is, not even the government will define it for us. But you know. Maybe you should not be so touchy about a question, not even a criticism... I was just bringing up the Black Swan nature of BTC and not asking you to defend TA, just merely open up a bit regarding the possibilities. I don't really follow why you want the govt to define bitcoins ! The less the govt has to do with it the better. But like I said, for my purposes I mainly focus on the monetary aspects of it which for speculating on price is all I feel the need to consider. Sorry if my reply seemed touchy not your fault. Thx as I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. Regarding the government defining BTC: If they define what we are, then we can start laying the groundwork and developing a plan (expansion, legal, tax, etc.) for going forward. I do see your point though and I agree the less government the better. But the danger is that they leave things gray and pick and attack as they choose. Now, maybe this doesn't hold up in a court of law (but who knows since corruption runs deep) but it could slow us down due to raising the fear level. That said, it is beautiful how even with the uncertainty of the DHS thing, the price quickly rebounded. Get some popcorn and enjoy the show... (Really, no matter what happens - though I think we are mostly ok - this is one hell of a ride. It is not everyday (or decade or century) that something like this comes along and challenges the established "norms"/corruption ) I predict various govts of the world will attempt to block bitcoins in a selection of inept ways. Everything the govt tries to do usually has the opposite effect and in this case will probably just make bitcoins stronger and more resilient. Part of their strategy might be through defining various dubious legal definitions which won't make a difference. I'm more worried about what bankers will attempt. In my view various internet debt based schemes will be pushed onto us and they will keep trying and trying different variations until they succeed. Ripples being the best example at this time. They will try and undermine or control bitcoins via deceipt and manipulation replacing bitcoins with IOU's for bitcoins and putting hidden quantities of bitcoins locked into gateways. |
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The problem about BTCUSD trends is that we cannot predict USD……
I predict USD to do what they have done ever since the federal reserve was created. They will lose more and more purchasing power. |
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 Looks like we're above the trend. Although maybe it is steeper now because of mining reward halfing? Maybe you can answer a simple question, what are you trending? I mean, what is BTC? Currency, Commodity, Stock, disruptive technology, protocol, etc. TA is great, we all use it, but to overly depend on it with something that we can't easily define, is cheapening what it is that is BTC. What if some really big news comes out? e.g., Pay Pal becomes funding mechanism for BTC. What do you think will happen to the "price" of BTC? TA has been said to basically describe human behavior (e.g. support lines). Now, since there are so many variables with BTC (see that short list above), again, it is dangerous to try to pigeon hole what BTC is. Be very very careful over emphasizing TA and yet know when to use it. From the perspective of the chart it is quite simple, the trend is the price of a bitcoin in US dollars as traded on MT Gox exchange. Bitcoin is not currency or commodity, it is money, like gold and silver. Unlike currencies it will also function as a store of value. I'm not going to defend TA yet again, if you don't like it, then perhaps you shouldn't bother with the speculation forum. I said "TA is great, we all use it, ..." so I'm not smacking it down and I USE IT. I think my point was clear. We don't know what BTC is, not even the government will define it for us. But you know. Maybe you should not be so touchy about a question, not even a criticism... I was just bringing up the Black Swan nature of BTC and not asking you to defend TA, just merely open up a bit regarding the possibilities. I don't really follow why you want the govt to define bitcoins ! The less the govt has to do with it the better. But like I said, for my purposes I mainly focus on the monetary aspects of it which for speculating on price is all I feel the need to consider. Sorry if my reply seemed touchy not your fault. |
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Looks like we're above the trend. Although maybe it is steeper now because of mining reward halfing? Maybe you can answer a simple question, what are you trending? I mean, what is BTC? Currency, Commodity, Stock, disruptive technology, protocol, etc. TA is great, we all use it, but to overly depend on it with something that we can't easily define, is cheapening what it is that is BTC. What if some really big news comes out? e.g., Pay Pal becomes funding mechanism for BTC. What do you think will happen to the "price" of BTC? TA has been said to basically describe human behavior (e.g. support lines). Now, since there are so many variables with BTC (see that short list above), again, it is dangerous to try to pigeon hole what BTC is. Be very very careful over emphasizing TA and yet know when to use it. From the perspective of the chart it is quite simple, the trend is the price of a bitcoin in US dollars as traded on MT Gox exchange. Bitcoin is not currency or commodity, it is money, like gold and silver. Unlike currencies it will also function as a store of value. I'm not going to defend TA yet again, if you don't like it, then perhaps you shouldn't bother with the speculation forum. |
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Yes I don't think XRP will do anything to "crush" BTC. It's even more different and has different kind of people willing to invest in it.
But thats also the thing the people who feel threatened by it don't get. I don't really know how much it will really affect BTC, but from how things look now it's worse than before LTC took off.
I agree on gox also, although not short term, since the exactly kind of thinking process makes somebody think we "need" gox to maintain a good price, don't ask me for the rationale on this it's mainly irrational - anything changing the status quo is potential bad news for those guys.
XRP potential to crush bitcoin would be very hard to understand unless you know, for example why the price of gold and silver has been crushed during a period where all the main fiat currencies are increasing their quantity of money through quantitative easing. Its too complex to go into much detail here but essentially, many people who don't hold gold think they do when all they really have is an IOU. The war between using debt as money and using commodity type monetary assests, things that hold value, has gone on probably for centuries. You cant compare Litecoin with Ripples, Litecoin is real money fixed in quantity, potentially good as a store of value just like bitcoins. It is the power to create money that allows central banks to steal wealth through inflation, just as XRP quantity can be inflated by the Opencoin controllers, this gives Opencoin the power to steal wealth through inflation. The temptation will be too much to resist. Money power preys on weak willed greed, its only human. Debt is a way to enslave. Ripple is a way to replace bitcoins with debt |
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I'm not paranoid, everyone just thinks I am |
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Haven't read though the comments so apologies if this is just repeating what anyone already said, however I think of ripples as a trojan horse in crytocurrency.
This isn't paranoia as far as I'm aware these are fact....
Ripples provides a method where people will hold IOUs representing bitcoins instead of bitcoins, whilst mistakenly assuming they are holding bitcoins. This sets a very dangerous precedent and is very similar to the way gold was replaced by paper representations of gold over the centuries.
The lie is that ripples will somehow help the bitcoin economy and work with it. This is not true, ripple will attempt to replace bitcoins with a fake mirage of bitcoins.
Ripple also provides a centralised controlled network for trading debt where the quantity of units in circulation representing that debt XRP can be inflated at the whim of the controllers. Does this sound familiar? This is the way debt based money currently operates already, and which bitcoins is fighting against.
Ripple is a trojan horse because it will attempt to control and kill the power of free money like bitcoins which will be able to hold value. Bitcoins are not debt, they are an asset you can hold which is nobodies liability.
Another huge warning sign is that Ripple claims to be 'open' misleading people to assume it is open source software, this is not the case. the software is not open at all.
Avoid ripples, do not support this debt based system.
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Erik Voorhees made an excellent post on OC Ripple here. That and his followups are very interesting. I basically agree entirely with his position. Not a scam, not too greedy, but too greedy to succeed long-term. Just a glorified pre-mined altcoin. Good link, interesting reading Better get back to work now though lol |
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On what authority can the dept of homeland security do this?
Terrorism. That's what they'll claim when they finally make a statement about this (If they ever do). Ah yes how could i forget theres a war on 'terror'. Its to protect us apparently and definately not to be used as an excuse to remove our freedom and liberty. oh no no |
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On what authority can the dept of homeland security do this?
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Hadnt heard about the Dwolla news, thanks for that. Wonder why Dwolla chose this particular moment in the market to do this? Hmm.... Its almost like they want to push bitcoins below support and make the chart look bearish... but that would be crazy. Why would dwolla try to hurt bitcoins? edit: The department of Homeland Security ordered this!!! Holy shit http://betabeat.com/2013/05/department-of-homeland-security-shuts-down-dwolla-payments-to-and-from-mt-gox/When are the american people going to realise what has happened to their country. Their government is gone rogue. |
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Have you heard how the Federal Reserve is not Federal and has no reserves ... (that is true) It seems to me thats a bit like how Opencoin is not open source ! Trying to mislead people with the name. Dirty tricks being played on us. |
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