Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[MooC Tals]

Should BFL pull through and deliver their products to the masses hence fullfilling their legal obligation in these commercial transactions, those that have been blasting BFL with SCAM this or SCAM without any basis in fact could then find themselves on the receiving end of a libel suit.

Im glad you did not go with an insult but instead you go with deflect. Its carrot and then stick, right?

Its called free speech. If I think its a scam, I have evry damn right to say I think its a scam. If I say I have definative proof of a scam and I write an article in the New York Times about it, that's way different. People posting their honest opinion on an internet forum (many not in the US remember) is so obviously a case of free speach your threat falls flat.

I see no reason to insult.  This isn't person, just business far as I am concerned.  I'm just stating what I see, no more no less.

Yes, you have the right to say anything you want within the rules of these forums.  It does not matter whether or not your statements are posted in the New York Times or on these forums.  Should the preponderance of evidence show that your comments (proven false by delivery of product) caused harm to BFL, then under civil law BFL has the right to file a tort against you.  Would they?  Depends on their mood I guess.

This goes back to yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

I believe he thinks you're someone from BFL trying to scare people with legal discourse. I am not in full agreement however it does follow their mode of operations IMHO

[bassclef]

Please understand that I have kept up with the facts and made my decision to pre-order after I waited a good amount of time to collect the data I needed to feel comfortable enough with the risks.

If you really kept up with the facts and did your due diligence, you would find out that the President of Butterfly Labs, Sonny Vleisides, is a felon. He was convicted of running a mail fraud racket that, over six years, stole $20 million from the elderly and naive. These scams went by names like Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group and World Expert Fund. His business partner at the time, Dennis Emmet, is now in jail for MURDER. He shot a guy IN THE FACE after getting into an argument.

These are facts, not libel. Google his name and read the affidavit. Even if they are legitimately creating a product, look at his past business practices, who he associates himself with, and ask yourself seriously if they are worthy of your hard-earned money. This company has not delivered for a year and is run by a former con artist. Any newbies thinking about pre-ordering need to take this into consideration.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0
http://insidecostarica.com/dailynews/2005/may/01/nac04.htm

[MooC Tals]

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.

How does this hold if the lawsuit was filed over seas or over state lines? Would this not be a greater concern if international laws were broken? 

Would Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas be in his jurisdiction for international complaints?

[Schrankwand]

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.

How does this hold if the lawsuit was filed over seas or over state lines? Would this not be a greater concern if international laws were broken? 

Would Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas be in his jurisdiction for international complaints?

Jurisdiction is likely the place of BFL incorporation.

[InSpades]

I agree with bassclef.  BFL is definitely worthy of the 'buyer beware' tag.  Hence the reason why my company has gone elsewhere.

[MooC Tals]

Please understand that I have kept up with the facts and made my decision to pre-order after I waited a good amount of time to collect the data I needed to feel comfortable enough with the risks.

If you really kept up with the facts and did your due diligence, you would find out that the President of Butterfly Labs, Sonny Vleisides, is a felon. He was convicted of running a mail fraud racket that, over six years, stole $20 million from the elderly and naive. These scams went by names like Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group and World Expert Fund. His business partner at the time, Dennis Emmet, is now in jail for MURDER. He shot a guy IN THE FACE after getting into an argument.

These are facts, not libel. Google his name and read the affidavit. Even if they are legitimately creating a product, look at his past business practices, who he associates himself with, and ask yourself seriously if they are worthy of your hard-earned money. This company has not delivered for a year and is run by a former con artist. Any newbies thinking about pre-ordering need to take this into consideration.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0
http://insidecostarica.com/dailynews/2005/may/01/nac04.htm

Well actually Sonny Vleisides received a lesser charge of mail order fraud. I could be wrong as I am going through memory that a murder was done by someone like a co-company founder or business partner and legal processes were not able to be done on time or something to that degree. Or else it would have been a 300+ years in prison. The information is there. I need to read a post all the way through. duh

However the disturbing thing was he had a chance to explain things through the forum but he closed the thread citing he was being unfairly attacked by competitors.

Actually he has a probation stipulations that bar him from doing these kinds of business internationally. Maybe that is why josh is not fired yet due to poor PR. My opinion again oops

[MooC Tals]

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.

How does this hold if the lawsuit was filed over seas or over state lines? Would this not be a greater concern if international laws were broken? 

Would Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas be in his jurisdiction for international complaints?

Jurisdiction is likely the place of BFL incorporation.

and if they're not incorporated would that is an issue here?

[InSpades]

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

[jesse11]

I would like to buy one with a credit card but the site has no way to that yet. Do you think they will let people buy one of their units with a credit card? If so when? 

[MooC Tals]

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

[jesse11]

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

[ranlo]

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

This is correct. Even if you and a friend that lives with you filed separate lawsuits, you would each have separate hearings.

You are able to do a group lawsuit (essentially what you do is have everyone's name as different plaintiffs) but I have no idea how that would work when dealing with people in other countries.

[jesse11]

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

This is correct. Even if you and a friend that lives with you filed separate lawsuits, you would each have separate hearings.

You are able to do a group lawsuit (essentially what you do is have everyone's name as different plaintiffs) but I have no idea how that would work when dealing with people in other countries.

A group lawsuit is called "Class Action" and it is best done through consumer organizations that bring claims on behalf of large groups of consumers. If the number of consumers run into thousands then yes a "Class Action Suit" may apply.

[ranlo]

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

This is correct. Even if you and a friend that lives with you filed separate lawsuits, you would each have separate hearings.

You are able to do a group lawsuit (essentially what you do is have everyone's name as different plaintiffs) but I have no idea how that would work when dealing with people in other countries.

A group lawsuit is called "Class Action" and it is best done through consumer organizations that bring claims on behalf of large groups of consumers. If the number of consumers run into thousands then yes a "Class Action Suit" may apply.

I was speaking (based on what the original poster was asking) on behalf of smaller groups. Ex. you get 5 people together to file.

Getting large numbers of people is very difficult. Not to mention, in many cases the company being sued won't have the funds to pay off many people, so smaller groups can be quite advantageous. It's really a gamble all on its own.

[jesse11]

This is true ranlo, however this will present significant ethical challenges as Defendants can hold reverse auctions and everybody loses. Only the Lawyers win.

[darkmule]

Should BFL pull through and deliver their products to the masses hence fullfilling their legal obligation in these commercial transactions, those that have been blasting BFL with SCAM this or SCAM without any basis in fact could then find themselves on the receiving end of a libel suit.

Bring it, bitch.

[reich]

Im a arsinist. Send me 100 Bitcoins il blow up there HQ.

[animalxp]

the first place i would be going is the local or federal authorities. detective or agent.
no point in starting a suit when you could be in the courts when suddenly, feds rage in and drag him out in cuffs.
then your case gets adjourned for 6 months while they butt rape him.

[MooC Tals]

Im a arsinist. Send me 100 Bitcoins il blow up there HQ.

Thats uncalled for. Sorry I don't condone this

[MooC Tals]

the first place i would be going is the local or federal authorities. detective or agent.
no point in starting a suit when you could be in the courts when suddenly, feds rage in and drag him out in cuffs.
then your case gets adjourned for 6 months while they butt rape him.

Thanks for that image! 

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