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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 383257 times)
darkmule
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July 20, 2013, 03:21:01 AM
 #2161

Please show the laws or case studies that indicate it is a breach of contract for a company to cancel your order and refund your money.

Seriously?  Any first year contracts textbook, or any copy of the UCC.  

Contract requires offer and acceptance.  The offer is when the customer proffers payment (not as some think when the seller advertises).  By accepting payment in return for shipment, then keeping the money (and sending a receipt saying what the seller has sold), the seller accepts that offer.  That is a contract.  All a contract is at its core is an agreement to do one thing in return for another.  The difficulty is not establishing breach of contract, but actual damages.  Just a broken contract by itself doesn't entitle you to damages.  You would have to show you are somehow in a worse position than you would be in had the contract been carried out, i.e., you would have otherwise had an Avalon by now and have made whatever amount of money, and this is somehow BFL's fault.

BFL did not just make the initial contract either.  They continued to make false assurances as to delivery time and even made people agree to further conditions (in return for nothing) just to stay in the queue.  Even if they hadn't originally established a binding contract, and could have probably backed out early on with little to no consequences, just sitting on people's money for in many cases over a year while jerking them around is just not legal.

Even if, somehow, taking money in return for an agreement to deliver a product didn't establish a contract (and if you think that what planet are you on exactly?), consumer fraud and mail order laws have a lot more stringent rules than plain old contract or UCC.  Things like triple damages provisions in some states, like New Jersey.

I can see why people wouldn't want to pursue these avenues, because they just aren't going to be profitable, and if you've been waiting around for over a year for your product and actually still want it, why would you drive the company out of business just when it's actually starting to deliver?  But it's not legal, it's not kosher, and it's a major league dick move in every sense of the word.
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July 20, 2013, 03:28:04 AM
 #2162

Josh, your logic makes no sense to me. You literally quote facts that disprove your own argument and call it misinformation and lies?  Everything I said was accurate, the day you were called out on selling preorders it changed to "order now" on your website.  Your company IS NOT shipping units fast enough to catch up on backlogs, which also means you do not have the manpower or production to meet the sales that you have taken from customers.  Further, you cannot withold funds from a sale if there is no product to back it up.  "All sales are final" does not apply when you do not have the product being prepped for shipping. Guess what, ordering parts doesn't make the product built, packed, or ready to be shipped either.  You just can't withhold those funds, end of story.



I believe you when you say my logic escapes you.  You are apparently unable to understand simple concepts, even though I've tried to use simple methods to explain them.  Something as advanced as logic would be difficult for someone to follow if they can't grasp the language they are trying to use. 

Here, let me try to be even more direct with you, try to follow along:

Quote
Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)

This is false, also known as a lie, since you a) have no way of knowing if we can or can not fulfill preorders.  Also a lie since you are unaware of the actual laws surrounding the FTC.  However, I will grant you a pass on the "lie" portion of the FTC regulation.  Lots of people think they are lawyers on the internet, but have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to legal matters.  This is you.

Quote
Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can.  Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older

Another false statement, also known as a lie.  You, again, have no way of knowing whether or not we are barely fulfilling preorders.  You know exactly zero information about our orderbook. 

Quote
Butterfly is now refusing refunds.  That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund.  The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight.  If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund.  If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December.  There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.

For all intents and purposes, this is a restatement of your first point.  So again, it's either a lie or you are yet another clueless internet lawyer.  You may THINK you know what the laws are, but you obviously don't. 

Quote
Go back to my quote, the customer is always first.  I am in fact a customer.  Why don't you move to the back of the line and find some way to make it right for the rest of us?  That's your job.

Lets go over this, shall we?  Why do you think the customer is always first?  Let me guess, you've heard the tired old saw 'the customer is always right!' correct?  Guess what?  Not true!  It's a false business methodology that has been proven to be detrimental to business.  It's a hold over from the 70's and 80's that has wrecked many a-business. 

Here, let me help you out:

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes.
 

For those who've been refused a refund by BFL, there's your out: BFL WILL fire you a customer. If they do not fire you as a customer, then they have lied. If they lie about this, what else are they lying about?

Simply put, now request BFL to fire your ass, whereupon your refund will be processed immediately.

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July 20, 2013, 03:51:36 AM
 #2163

Will be interesting if someone beats them to the punch. It will happen.
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July 20, 2013, 04:31:24 AM
 #2164

I would keep it, definitely.  The BTC you eventually mine will be worth more than the USD you will get from a refund.  I bet the people who canceled their 6/23 orders for singles in April, May, or June are banging their heads on a wall right now.  The only reason I would want to cancel is if the BTC price dropped significantly (down to single digits).
Even BFL sock puppets are starting to put it rather bluntly. Nice to read it. In a ward, never purchase a product from BFL. If you want to make a BTC investment just buy BTC with your USD and hold them.
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July 20, 2013, 05:12:46 AM
 #2165

I put in a paypal dispute because they're not shipping singles and I'm pissed

Of course they haven't replied to the dispute or refunded me yet and have a week to do so

I emailed BFL asking them if I cancelled the dispute would I be able to keep my position in queue

This was their response:

http://i.imgur.com/NoDo3gm.png


I was half expecting them to beg me to cancel the dispute and offer to bump me up in the queue or something, instead I get them stating that they "can not comment" on it.


I'm guessing if I cancel the dispute, I won't be seeing a refund and my order and position in queue will "accidentally" get lost


Anyone think i'll retain my position in queue if I cancel the dispute?

Interesting how the order page says refunded: 1 when I haven't gotten anything back in paypal yet:

http://i.imgur.com/Sp5g9dY.png

http://i.imgur.com/Zgd8v0j.png
MooC Tals
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July 20, 2013, 05:18:51 AM
 #2166

I put in a paypal dispute because they're not shipping singles and I'm pissed

Of course they haven't replied to the dispute or refunded me yet and have a week to do so

I emailed BFL asking them if I cancelled the dispute would I be able to keep my position in queue

This was their response:




I was half expecting them to beg me to cancel the dispute and offer to bump me up in the queue or something, instead I get them stating that they "can not comment" on it.


I'm guessing if I cancel the dispute, I won't be seeing a refund and my order and position in queue will "accidentally" get lost


Anyone think i'll retain my position in queue if I cancel the dispute?

Interesting how the order page says refunded: 1 when I haven't gotten anything back in paypal yet:



IMHO You are the lucky one to get your refund the others will cry when they get their units after they're worthless.

Take the money and forget BFL ever existed and learn something from this.

BFL can't get out of what they have created and they're playing a tricky game of optics and deadmans bluff.

Either way its up to you and this is my opinion keep the dispute and get your money before things go tits up.
wtfvanity
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July 20, 2013, 02:00:22 PM
 #2167

I put in a paypal dispute because they're not shipping singles and I'm pissed

Of course they haven't replied to the dispute or refunded me yet and have a week to do so

I emailed BFL asking them if I cancelled the dispute would I be able to keep my position in queue

This was their response:




I was half expecting them to beg me to cancel the dispute and offer to bump me up in the queue or something, instead I get them stating that they "can not comment" on it.


I'm guessing if I cancel the dispute, I won't be seeing a refund and my order and position in queue will "accidentally" get lost


Anyone think i'll retain my position in queue if I cancel the dispute?

Interesting how the order page says refunded: 1 when I haven't gotten anything back in paypal yet:



IMHO You are the lucky one to get your refund the others will cry when they get their units after they're worthless.

Take the money and forget BFL ever existed and learn something from this.

BFL can't get out of what they have created and they're playing a tricky game of optics and deadmans bluff.

Either way its up to you and this is my opinion keep the dispute and get your money before things go tits up.

I understand choose chose is not going to pop up with spell check, but really, does no one in this country know how to spell? Yeah, public schools FTW... come on BFL. Require GED's in the hiring process! Oh wait, I don't think that applies to any of them.

          WTF!     Don't Click Here              
          .      .            .            .        .            .            .          .        .     .               .            .             .            .            .           .            .     .               .         .              .           .            .            .            .     .      .     .    .     .          .            .          .            .            .           .              .     .            .            .           .            .               .         .            .     .            .            .             .            .              .            .            .      .            .            .            .            .            .            .             .          .
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July 20, 2013, 03:20:42 PM
 #2168

I put in a paypal dispute because they're not shipping singles and I'm pissed

Of course they haven't replied to the dispute or refunded me yet and have a week to do so

I emailed BFL asking them if I cancelled the dispute would I be able to keep my position in

That's silly. Why would you think you'd be rewarded (given a higher spot in the order queue) for causing them a headache? Especially these boards being the way they are (18,000 sign ups on digital ocean for primecoin miners after a single post with a referral link), if you succeeded and posted about your e pertinence, the next thing you know everyone would open disputes hoping to get bumped up as well. In which case everyone would be right back where they started.

If I was them, especially given their "fire your customers manta", I'd say "sorry, when you filed your dispute, that cancelled your order. If you cancel the dispute, well treat it as a new order"

What the real shame is is that BFLis the only ASIC provider that has an offering suitable for more casual miners. usb Block eruptors? Don't expect to ever recoup your costs of $100 for 300MH. All the others? Thousands of dollars. There's zero competition in the low-end space (5 Gh for $279..,, who's much is a 12 Gh Avalon blade?).

Of course it doesn't really matter anymore. All the ASIC providers are doing is insuring that nobody is profitable but them.  This arms race of gigahashes hasn't really accomplished anything else. Certainly not any more network security, as the network is just as vulnerable to a dedicated attacker (say, a government) willing to spend a couple million dollars as it was before Asics. But that's a whole other story. End of the day is that BFL has zero competition despite worthy adversaries, because all the others have decided on much higher price points for their goods. Now, if friedcat released something that was comparable in price and performance to a jalapeño and customers had other routes, I'd doubt you'd see any mention of "firing our customers"
Beymond
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July 20, 2013, 03:28:44 PM
 #2169

any one of you got the rig?
tinus42
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July 20, 2013, 03:43:04 PM
Last edit: July 20, 2013, 04:02:57 PM by tinus42
 #2170

What the real shame is is that BFLis the only ASIC provider that has an offering suitable for more casual miners. usb Block eruptors? Don't expect to ever recoup your costs of $100 for 300MH. All the others? Thousands of dollars. There's zero competition in the low-end space (5 Gh for $279..,, who's much is a 12 Gh Avalon blade?).

The price of a Jalapeno is at least more than ten times higher than $274 (not $279). If you actually want to have it within a few days. The start price for one on eBay is $2,969 and will likely be higher once the auction ends:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Butterfly-Labs-ASIC-Jalapeno-bitforce-5-8-GH-s-IN-HAND-NOT-PRE-ORDER-/130949363921?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e7d30b8d1

$274 gets you a Jalapeno PRE-ORDER. Big difference.

If you pre-order and get the Jalapeno at the end of the year (or heaven forbid next year) due to the expected highly increased difficulty it will likely produce less coins than a USB Block Eruptor does NOW.
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July 20, 2013, 03:49:04 PM
 #2171

Quote
That's silly. Why would you think you'd be rewarded (given a higher spot in the order queue) for causing them a headache? Especially these boards being the way they are (18,000 sign ups on digital ocean for primecoin miners after a single post with a referral link), if you succeeded and posted about your e pertinence, the next thing you know everyone would open disputes hoping to get bumped up as well. In which case everyone would be right back where they started.

I was half expecting
I was half
half


For Causing Them a Headache.  gr8 b8 m8
justas
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July 20, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
 #2172

yea
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July 20, 2013, 09:35:34 PM
 #2173

quote:

" Why is BFL Not Flush with Components to Build S/MR Consistently?
So, what is going on? Is it too much to ask for more transparency?

I don't understand why nothing shipped today? Was this also the case on Monday? Tuesday?
Why does there only seem to be enough components for the Jally all the time?
Is BFL running out of money?
Can components for old orders only be stocked with money from new orders? Why aren't you ordering the components you need for S/MR? Why are there such dead gaps?
How can BFL possibly get through the backlog before the end of September at this rate?
How many more zero shipping days will there be to look forward to?
How many orders are left for June 23rd?
How many are there for June 24th?
25th? etc?


------------------------------------

Somebody said we've been stuck on June 23rd for a month. I've lost track. Obviously I wish we could get more transparency. I've never understood why BFL has kept the hashrate they've sold a secret? Why can't we know the amount of orders for each product?

Just so many questions."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3890-why-bfl-not-flush-components-build-s-mr-consistently.html#post48102

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfl      http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=inaba
Butterfly Labs shipped the Jalapeno 10 months after first orders. They're still backlogged 7 months. If you're thinking of buying a BFL Monarch, think again.
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July 21, 2013, 04:13:28 AM
Last edit: July 21, 2013, 03:58:08 PM by jordaninthesky
 #2174

Hi Josh/Inaba.  I just want to affirm to you that everyone knows what's going on.  It would be great to think of the world as a nicer place, but you are clearly not the savant that you were before you first spoke those words "2 more weeks".

It was over, at that point, for everyone.  You broke word; now what can we count on?  Oh, right, the imagination.

You say you aren't a liar.  Let history speak for itself.  As you would say "I don't have time to show you.  Check the boards, stupid!"

Because you are imitating the role of a known con-man who is associated with BFL, it will be a lot easier to link malice to your actions, so you will not get the lenience that Sonny did.  Sonny will probably suffer some sort of release-contract violation, but that's not as important to people as seeing the face behind the false words burn.  The name you wear (Josh Zerlan) is an anti-semitic joke.
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July 21, 2013, 04:19:41 AM
 #2175

"Old Singles ordered now will deliver sometime in September. New ones start delivering in October, but i don't know when one ordered now would deliver. I would order the new one if I were you. --Jody"

Just curious if you consider Jody up to par with your ability to keep spinning, or if she now is a liability that needs to be cut loose?
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July 21, 2013, 05:36:20 AM
 #2176

Haha why make claims you ask?  That's what Phinnaeus does.  He's the most irresponsible user on this forum and is responsible for the harassement and misidentification of a number of users in his crusades.  Bruno is an example of all that is wrong with bitcoin and the internet in general.  Anonymous whiny man-children that hide behind their computer without fear of repercussion for their actions.

Did you know he's also an embezzler and thief?  Phinnaeus Gage used to run Bitcoin100 and stole thousands of dollars from a charity.  He's a real stand up individual.

While you help steal away millions beyond.  Even if your claims are true, the diversion tactic you made with steering people away from Avalon to your shady company cost many tens of thousands a month.  This was a real shit move on my part, to not see the false name you wear and assume that because an internet based company says its going to do something, it will.  I just want to let you know about the financial implications your company faces.  I worked with a company Quixtar/Amway, knew what I was getting into and was okay with it, and still had a class action lawsuit delivered to my doorstep.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/89809366/quixtar-pokorny-settlement-agreement

With you, however...  I have been intentionally deceived and diverted from a real blooming industry that I wanted to support.  Your transparent actions don't even compare to the cultic mentality of Quixtar/Amway.  Even beyond that, you have done an undetermined amount of damage by taking spotlight for BTC.  Even if BTC can someday be taken seriously, it will not be without justice brought upon you!  I'm not an internet lawyer.  I'm a trend spotter and a train catcher.  In this situation, I'd gladly drive a train.  You are sick and disgusting.  You have become such a whore for whatever $$ you could be envisioning right now, that it is unfathomable.  

A blight is not difficult to be seen.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfl      http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=inaba
Butterfly Labs shipped the Jalapeno 10 months after first orders. They're still backlogged 7 months. If you're thinking of buying a BFL Monarch, think again.
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July 21, 2013, 05:40:40 AM
 #2177

Just so many questions.
They simply run out of money. This is the simple answer to all your questions.

If they ship everything they have in stock difficulty will increase yet even more. This is why they hash with everything they have available to earn money effectively using they customers' money to make money. Needless to say, this is a direct theft from their customers' ROI. Conclusion is easy. The average BFL customer will never achieve positive ROI on their bitcoin investment. They would have been far more successful if they just purchased bitcoins and hold them in their bitcoin wallet.

Forget about BFL. The scam was planned from the very start of this startup.
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July 21, 2013, 08:44:04 AM
 #2178

didn't know that ty for information  Smiley

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July 21, 2013, 09:00:51 AM
 #2179

what about mining rig leasing?

https://github.com/pocesar - BTC 1KLRAFHGGhE2WiRASkASatvMR1vALmkB9L
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July 21, 2013, 11:23:05 AM
 #2180

The name you wear is an anti-semitic joke.

How's that? Inaba is a Japanese name. Probably taken from some manga character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaba
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