Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[angelito]

http://angelitominer.atwebpages.com/

[1715552039]

1715552039

[1715552039]

1715552039

[becoin]

http://angelitominer.atwebpages.com/

I'm really sorry for your experience. I've compiled a manual for people like you on this forum half year ago.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0

What method of payment did you use to pay BFL $22,484 USD?

[molecular]

It's beginning to look really ugly for anyone holding onto their BFL order that is not in the first month of orders. Jalapenos seem to be shipping at a decent clip but those who ordered singles/little singles/minirigs are being left in the dust.

BTC ROI for the little single I ordered (first week preorders were available) is now at the 6 month mark from my calculations.

we've discussed this at length. use USD roi calculation. if you get it today your USD break even point is roughly 2 weeks.

[MooC Tals]

http://angelitominer.atwebpages.com/

I asked for a refund which BFL denied. After they denied my refund I made a public post on the BFL forums asking everyone to write their experience with BFL and help me get together a bunch of unhappy customers so we can all explain to the detective in Kansas that we believe BFL really is playing dirty and operating in an unfair matter that no legit business should operate. So, what happened to my post? After 3-10 minutes of the post being posted the moderator and representative by the name of ‘Josh’ deleted and banned my IP address from the forums FOREVER. I have proof of this.

Looks like the shit is splattering all over the room after it hit the fan.

[lucasjkr]

http://angelitominer.atwebpages.com/

OK, so you saved your money and placed an order in Early July 2013, knowing full well at that time that they had just started shipping orders from mid 2012 (for reference, my early Sept 2012 order was delivered July 2, 2013 - just a jalapeño). And now you're upset that it might take a while, even though, at the time you ordered it, it said plainly that you were looking at at least 2 months until they shipped (or longer). And you're upset that another non-affiliated website shows you the time to break even without calculating for the increase in difficulty that will occur by the time you receive, which is also an unknown number? And then, you demanded a refund, which they declined. So you posted on their forums a solicitation to find other people to team together to have them investigated? So you went to the detectives about it?

A) Why in the world did you order on July 2, 2013 when you were already fully aware of the delays they were facing?

B) All they're selling you is hashing power. Whatever the network hash rate is, difficulty is, or value of bitcoin is at the time you receive it is nothing to do with the unit they're selling you.

C) So they declined to give you a refund. You're within a month of purchase, just call the credit card company and cancel that way. If you didn't use a credit card, paid by bankwire or worse, bitcoin, well, why did you do that knowing point A?

D) and of course they're not going to want their forums to be used to enlist people to try to get them in trouble.

I'm sorry. It's a lot of money. But I don't understand why you parted with it in the first place, quite honestly.

[becoin]

I'm sorry. It's a lot of money. But I don't understand why you parted with it in the first place, quite honestly.

Maybe he thought he's ordering an ASIC from BFL?

[lucasjkr]

I'm sorry. It's a lot of money. But I don't understand why you parted with it in the first place, quite honestly.

Maybe he thought he's ordering an ASIC from BFL?

Yes. But he appeared to have attempted to do some due diligence. Having done that, why would he place and order in July 2013 and complain a couple weeks later when he already knew that people who ordered the same unit a full year earlier had yet to receive theirs? Especially when he said the site was quite clear it might be two months or more til they get to his order. It's like me ordering today and complaining next week that I didn't get my order. Sorry. It just doesn't make sense. Nor does it make sense to call a detective rather than his credit card company when the vendor fails to refund his transaction.

[becoin]

Yes. But he appeared to have attempted to do some due diligence.

Yes. But it was done after he paid the money. He is not an exception. It is a common mistake for the average BFL sponsor (customer).

[lucasjkr]

Yes. But he appeared to have attempted to do some due diligence.

Yes. But it was done after he paid the money. He is not an exception. It is a common mistake for the average BFL sponsor (customer).

I guess it's an expensive lesson learned. If you're going to send $22k to a vendor, better to do your due diligence first rather than after. I know I did a couple hours checking them out, and that was just for a $150 purchase.

[darkmule]

Looks like an attempt at a one man sting operation to me.  Not that there's anything wrong with that per se but it doesn't make for a very sympathetic plaintiff if it comes down to that.

[djbooth007]

Contacting police should be a last resort. Contacting your credit card provider should be the first.
Although BFL continue to anger 99% of their own customers, it's amazing how little they've learnt by their mistakes. Treat people (customers) right and they wont get sued. Arent refunds a part of consumer law in the US?

[darkmule]

Contacting police should be a last resort. Contacting your credit card provider should be the first.
Although BFL continue to anger 99% of their own customers, it's amazing how little they've learnt by their mistakes. Treat people (customers) right and they wont get sued. Arent refunds a part of consumer law in the US?

There's three levels of laws about refunds.  There are federal consumer protection laws, generally pretty anemic.

Most of the effective laws are state laws.  All states have laws based on the Uniform Commercial Code.  Many states, though, have their own consumer protection and anti-fraud laws.  In some of these states, you can collect double or triple damages from fraudulent practices.

To the extent BFL has marketed their products to these states, they are probably subject to long-arm jurisdiction and can be sued in that state by anyone with the gumption to walk into their nearest county courthouse.

E.g., are you in New Jersey?  Are you being refused a refund?  Google New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act.  See that phrase "treble damages" showing up in the results?  That's lawyerspeak for triple.  You can fuck their shit up.

[MooC Tals]

Treble damages provisions are often designed to make prosecuting a private right of action more economically feasible,[2] to encourage private enforcement,[3] or to deter wrongdoers from violating the law.[4] However, some states impose “automatic” treble damages. While trebling a nominal damages award will still yield only nominal damages, there is some incentive for bringing an action where substantial actual damages are guaranteed to be trebled. Among those states with automatic treble damages, some require a showing of intent or willfulness on the defendant’s part, while others require only a statutory violation. Still other states have a mechanism for treble or multiple damages but leave the trebling of damages to the court’s discretion (albeit sometimes constrained by specific criteria).

No one would dare take on BFL they're untouchable and most people are weak and scared of courts. Not to mention pussies!!!

[darkmule]

Treble damages provisions are often designed to make prosecuting a private right of action more economically feasible,[2] to encourage private enforcement,[3] or to deter wrongdoers from violating the law.[4] However, some states impose “automatic” treble damages. While trebling a nominal damages award will still yield only nominal damages, there is some incentive for bringing an action where substantial actual damages are guaranteed to be trebled. Among those states with automatic treble damages, some require a showing of intent or willfulness on the defendant’s part, while others require only a statutory violation. Still other states have a mechanism for treble or multiple damages but leave the trebling of damages to the court’s discretion (albeit sometimes constrained by specific criteria).

No one would dare take on BFL they're untouchable and most people are weak and scared of courts. Not to mention pussies!!!

The problem isn't really getting a judgment in a case of blatant fraud like this, but collecting against a bunch of fucking bums.  Look at the principals of BFL.  Convicts, trolls, just a bunch of fucking losers.  What are the odds any of these clowns have assets to collect?

[Photon939]

It's beginning to look really ugly for anyone holding onto their BFL order that is not in the first month of orders. Jalapenos seem to be shipping at a decent clip but those who ordered singles/little singles/minirigs are being left in the dust.

BTC ROI for the little single I ordered (first week preorders were available) is now at the 6 month mark from my calculations.

we've discussed this at length. use USD roi calculation. if you get it today your USD break even point is roughly 2 weeks.

Why would I calculate ROI in USD when I paid in BTC? Well, I paid for half of it in BTC. I paid for the upgrade from two jalapenos to the LS with paypal. So that makes BTC ROI easier.


Yes USD ROI will be very fast (especially since my LS is now in production) but coins are what I paid and it will take several months to get those coins back. I only held onto my order since I was a first week preorder. Otherwise I would've gotten a refund months ago. Those still months out are in deep shit unless something significant changes in the assembly line.

[foff_bfl]

Requested a refund and got this in reply:

All sales are final at this point. We are in full production, thus your orders are final.

If you've filed a complaint with the FTC, then there's nothing I can do, you'll have to follow up with the FTC from here on out, as no one here can assist you with that. Please be sure to direct all correspondence to them in the future going forward.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy.html

Filed a dispute on Paypal and received a refund.

So if you paid via Paypal, file a dispute, even if after 45 days.
Also file a complaint with the FTC.

[Fiyasko]

Requested a refund and got this in reply:

All sales are final at this point. We are in full production, thus your orders are final.

If you've filed a complaint with the FTC, then there's nothing I can do, you'll have to follow up with the FTC from here on out, as no one here can assist you with that. Please be sure to direct all correspondence to them in the future going forward.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy.html

Filed a dispute on Paypal and received a refund.

So if you paid via Paypal, file a dispute, even if after 45 days.
Also file a complaint with the FTC.

Beautiful work and advice goodsir!, I sure hope people do this before BFL tries to do something to block paypal disputes.

[Photon939]

Based on what I've seen about how Paypal works, I doubt they will block refunds unless BFL's balance and linked accounts completely dry up. Paypal will side with the buyer 90% of the time even if the seller is perfectly legit and has held up their end of the deal.

So with all the shenannigans over at BFL, Paypal will probably be glad to reverse anyone's order that paid with PP until their account goes negative.

If Paypal says they can't refund your order, THEN panic. That would be a good indicator that BFL implosion is imminent.

[Fiyasko]

Based on what I've seen about how Paypal works, I doubt they will block refunds unless BFL's balance and linked accounts completely dry up. Paypal will side with the buyer 90% of the time even if the seller is perfectly legit and has held up their end of the deal.

So with all the shenannigans over at BFL, Paypal will probably be glad to reverse anyone's order that paid with PP until their account goes negative.

If Paypal says they can't refund your order, THEN panic. That would be a good indicator that BFL implosion is imminent.

Well thats pretty much what im saying, You might also be able to close the account and run for the border

[becoin]

It's beginning to look really ugly for anyone holding onto their BFL order that is not in the first month of orders. Jalapenos seem to be shipping at a decent clip but those who ordered singles/little singles/minirigs are being left in the dust.

BTC ROI for the little single I ordered (first week preorders were available) is now at the 6 month mark from my calculations.

we've discussed this at length. use USD roi calculation. if you get it today your USD break even point is roughly 2 weeks.

Why would I calculate ROI in USD when I paid in BTC?

Yes, it has been discussed at length and BFL sock puppets keep disregarding the obviuos. Ordering bitcoin ASIC is not a USD investment, it's a BTC investment irrespective of how you paid it. Your ASIC can be used ONLY to mine BTC and nothing else. If the price of BTC drops to zero the price of your bitcoin ASIC will drop to zero as well.