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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 387497 times)
molecular
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July 25, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
 #2261


Channel your anger somewhere positive! Just let go, you're feeding the monster!

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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July 26, 2013, 12:03:40 AM
Last edit: July 28, 2013, 11:38:09 AM by cashforbtc
 #2262

BFL is a "long con" game. They are just shipping out just enough units for people to say "see, they are somewhat legit". But really if it isn't a scam, then you are looking at a grossly incompetent company, whose main PR guy's job seems to be to spend time being ultra-defensive and insult as many people as possible.
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July 26, 2013, 07:31:06 AM
 #2263

Can you elaborate a bit on the "long con" game reference?

It seems that BFL must have made a substantial investment
in producing a functiong ASiC and usable product. I am not trying
to promote them, but I don't quite see the "con" aspect yet.

As I heard a long time ago:

"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence."
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July 26, 2013, 07:49:53 AM
 #2264

It is amazing how much energy and money BFL crooks spend to create new sock puppets every day.

I keep thinking there is a bug on my screen as I scroll past your posts..  =/   

Evil bug !!! lol
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July 26, 2013, 09:22:04 AM
 #2265

Can you elaborate a bit on the "long con" game reference?

It seems that BFL must have made a substantial investment
in producing a functiong ASiC and usable product.
From the very first days this startup started with a lie. They lied they have attracted VC!

I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D and treating their customers like investor to share the risk but without investor rights, refusing full bitcoin refunds, now they stopped all refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?!
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July 26, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
 #2266

Channel your anger somewhere positive!
I'm positive. A lot of uninformed BTC world newcomers must be protected from BFL scam.

Just let go, you're feeding the monster!

Please, explain? Do you imply that crooks must rule bitcoin community?
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July 27, 2013, 12:38:03 AM
 #2267

Can you elaborate a bit on the "long con" game reference?

It seems that BFL must have made a substantial investment
in producing a functiong ASiC and usable product.
From the very first days this startup started with a lie. They lied they have attracted VC!

I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D and treating their customers like investor to share the risk but without investor rights, refusing full bitcoin refunds, now they stopped all refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?!

Sock puppet here. Except I'm unaffiliated and not getting paid. Buy that's besides the point.

BFL seems to be the only complany to date that put sizable numbers of Fpgas in miners hands. And even today, they are the only company that have shipped price competitive Asics in any large quantity.  Asicminer has shipped thousands, yes , but at price points where people can't ever hope to earn back their investment. Even BFLs units that haven't shipped have more of a chance at one day paying for themselves than those USB block eruptors. As for Avalon? Limited availability, much high price per hash and signficant delays as well. It's endemic. But BFL has been the only company with a track record of getting hashing power into miners hands at a reasonable cost. Delayed? Yes. Obviously. But making progress without doubt. I got mine, and if they weren't shipping at all, their forums would be ablaze with people saying they hasn't gotten their order from dates that BFL claimed to have shipped already.

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July 27, 2013, 04:35:44 AM
Last edit: July 27, 2013, 05:44:35 AM by jordaninthesky
 #2268


Sock puppet here. Except I'm unaffiliated and not getting paid. Buy that's besides the point.

BFL seems to be the only complany to date that put sizable numbers of Fpgas in miners hands. And even today, they are the only company that have shipped price competitive Asics in any large quantity.  Asicminer has shipped thousands, yes , but at price points where people can't ever hope to earn back their investment. Even BFLs units that haven't shipped have more of a chance at one day paying for themselves than those USB block eruptors. As for Avalon? Limited availability, much high price per hash and signficant delays as well. It's endemic. But BFL has been the only company with a track record of getting hashing power into miners hands at a reasonable cost. Delayed? Yes. Obviously. But making progress without doubt. I got mine, and if they weren't shipping at all, their forums would be ablaze with people saying they hasn't gotten their order from dates that BFL claimed to have shipped already.



FPGAs, yes.  Your second point is deceptive.  They aren't the only company that have shipped price competitive ASICS, and definitely not in a large quantity.  I know right now it seems like BFL is the only choice for a few...  But since I've invested, BFL has always been too good to be true.  Maybe they built up stock and released a bunch in a day or something like that, but they are not yet at all consistent in any other terms than dissatisfying people, but still keeping them hanging on, learning to let go of the original opportunity they've signed up for.  Maybe they'll become consistent in a good way at some point, but don't think the nightmare is over yet for a lot of people.  As time progresses there will still be yet even more dissatisfaction, until all that is left are investors who signed up, knowing that BFL was already delayed for months to a year.  Who, maybe after months to a year, will be biting their tongue.

I was signing up with BFL when I had a window into Avalon's ASICs batch 1.   There are many who fell into BFL because of it its prominent advertising and its "reliability" on having released FPGAs.  
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July 27, 2013, 06:53:04 PM
 #2269

"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence."

I don't think that's a very good rule overall.  It's entirely possible for people be both incompetent and malicious at the same time.

Also, people can feign incompetence in order to get away with malicious behavior.  Look at how politicians say incredibly stupid things all the time. But most of them aren't actually stupid.  They're pretending to be stupid so they can get away with whatever it is they actually want to do.

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July 27, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
 #2270

I wouldn't go as far as saying that BFLabs is a scam, however their inability to honour orders and feeble PR is somewhat annoying.  I have conceded that my 60gh single may only serve as a potential museum piece one day and will not turn out to be magic wand I fantasised about when I placed my Paypal order.

https://mybitcoin.garden
Bitcoin game where you can earn up to 220% on each planted garden!
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July 27, 2013, 09:27:41 PM
 #2271

Nobody who is responsible can be scammed.  Nobody who is scammed, will want to admit they are scammed.  What BFL is doing is clever, interesting, and very much evil in the name of good.
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July 27, 2013, 10:35:02 PM
 #2272

Nobody who is scammed, will want to admit they are scammed.

Reminds me of the guy who bought the Eiffel Tower from master con artist Victor Lustig.

Quote
Lustig took the men to the tower in a rented limousine for an inspection tour. It gave Lustig the opportunity to gauge which of them was the most enthusiastic and gullible. Lustig asked for bids to be submitted the next day, and reminded them that the matter was a state secret. In reality, Lustig already knew he would accept the bid from one dealer, Andre Poisson. Poisson was insecure, feeling he was not in the inner circles of the Parisian business community, and thought that obtaining the Eiffel Tower deal would put him in the big league.

However, Poisson's wife was suspicious, wondering who this official was, why everything was so secret, and why everything was being done so quickly. To deal with her suspicion, Lustig arranged another meeting, and then "confessed". As a government minister, Lustig said, he did not make enough money to pursue the lifestyle he enjoyed, and needed to find ways to supplement his income. This meant that his dealings needed a certain discretion. Poisson understood immediately. He was dealing with another corrupt government official who wanted a bribe. That put Poisson's mind at rest immediately, since he was familiar with the type and had no problems dealing with such people.

So Lustig not only received the funds for the Eiffel Tower, he also collected a large bribe. Lustig and his personal secretary, a Franco American con man Robert Arthur Tourbillon also known as Dan Collins, hastily took a train for Vienna with a suitcase full of cash.

Surprisingly, nothing happened. Poisson was too humiliated to complain to the police. A month later, Lustig returned to Paris, selected six more scrap dealers, and tried to sell the Tower once more. This time, the chosen victim went to the police before Lustig could close the deal, but Lustig and Collins managed to evade arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig

Be foolish enough with your Bitcoins and you might also be remembered in history as a gullible idiot like Andre Poisson. Grin
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July 28, 2013, 08:35:57 AM
 #2273

tl;dr for wall of text:  just cause people aren't suing BFL doesn't mean they're 100% legit.  Also they're not a total scam, at least not yet.

Nobody who is scammed, will want to admit they are scammed.

Reminds me of the guy who bought the Eiffel Tower from master con artist Victor Lustig.

Con artists are not necessarily individually very clever, but there has been a lengthy evolutionary process that determines which scams "survive" to be re-used, that is, the scams actually work and get money from people but the scammers don't get prosecuted.  The Nigerian scams and their evolution over time provide a very illustrative example.

First, the initial come-on, you would think, should actually be persuasive and convincing enough that most people don't reject it, but paradoxically, the exact opposite is the case.  Most Nigerian scams are absurd on their face and the vast majority of people instantly laugh and immediately ignore them without paying them a second thought.  

Why should this be?  Shouldn't these come-ons actually be enough to get most people to look?  Actually, no!  They should do exactly the opposite, and that's what they do.  The initial come-on is not intended to convince a "normal" person of its accuracy.  It is a sieving process, where the initial come-on actually weeds out the people the scammer will not succeed with, leaving only the pool of potentially gullible suckers.

This come-on actually serves the purpose of selecting a population for ongoing contact who is actually dumb enough to believe that some person they don't know is just contacting them out of the blue to give them an enormous amount of money for absolutely flimsy and unbelievable reasons.  And dumb enough not to give one chunk of money, but to keep paying more and more over time as the long con continues.

Now, BFL, to the extent it is a scam, is an entirely different one.  The target audience is not stupid.  In fact, the target audience is highly intelligent, since even being able to understand Bitcoin and that it's actually a legitimate thing that is worth real money in the real world requires a high degree of intelligence and knowledge of the technology and math.  

But they also have to be naive enough to believe some company totally out of nowhere, just because it starts out spouting the same rhetoric, taking money in advance for products that don't exist yet, is actually legitimate.  They have to not bother checking the company's principals (like Sonny) and look at how it's actually acting, and be willing to throw money at it in advance.  

This isn't stupidity, like some assholes have said.  There's greed involved, in that people wanted to sign up for this because Bitcoin is a huge money-making opportunity.  That part isn't a scam.  And also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to make money by getting into Bitcoin and advancing this awesome technology.  The financial reward is literally why this technology is bound to succeed, either in Bitcoin form or the form of some other cryptocurrency.

This is, to the extent it is a scam, an affinity scam, like when religious people rip off people of their own faith.  The "hook" is "hey trust me, I'm like you and I share the same beliefs" with a dash of "let's make lots of money."  This kind of scam is very destructive to a community precisely because it destroys trust.  In this case, BFL might have ultimately done us a favor, though.  Unless they actually waltz off with all the money, it isn't really a scam in the criminal sense.  It is more of a burn.  BFL got money that was better directed at more honest players like Avalon (who have been far from perfect themselves).  BFL got a huge batch of BTC that massively appreciated in value while their purchasers waited endlessly.  It is my belief that most BFL purchasers would have been better off doing nothing than pre-ordering from BFL.

But to get back to the Eiffel Tower guy, in the case of that dude, victims didn't call the police because they were embarrassed at being so stupid.  That is not really the case here.  Here, they actually still want the product, and it is actually still reasonable to believe that it will exist at some point and be shipped.

And actually taking these clowns to court, even though there is a good chance there's a cause of action (I've analyzed the legal issues fairly extensively here and on other threads), is a miserable option.  Lawsuits are horrendous, boring, expensive, and very often, at the end of them, the only people who made any money are the lawyers.  Be wary of any lawyer who is eager to go to court.  The best legal advice in the world is to stay out of court if at all possible.

While I wouldn't necessarily take my own advice there at all times, people not suing BFL for their endless bullshit does not mean BFL's actions are okay.  
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July 28, 2013, 04:58:22 PM
 #2274

darkmule, don't discount the power of groupthink. If I say this is a good deal, you say this is a good deal and 50 other people follow us then the scam will succeed. Pirate earned himself many trips to Walmart using that philosophy. Intelligent, well educated, and supposedly business savvy individuals fall prey to groupthink just as easily as a high school drop out.

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July 28, 2013, 05:36:28 PM
 #2275

It's beginning to look really ugly for anyone holding onto their BFL order that is not in the first month of orders. Jalapenos seem to be shipping at a decent clip but those who ordered singles/little singles/minirigs are being left in the dust.

BTC ROI for the little single I ordered (first week preorders were available) is now at the 6 month mark from my calculations.
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July 28, 2013, 07:22:17 PM
 #2276

We have all known BFL is a scam for the longest time
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July 28, 2013, 07:26:26 PM
 #2277

It's beginning to look really ugly for anyone holding onto their BFL order that is not in the first month of orders. Jalapenos seem to be shipping at a decent clip but those who ordered singles/little singles/minirigs are being left in the dust.

BTC ROI for the little single I ordered (first week preorders were available) is now at the 6 month mark from my calculations.

Looks even worse for buyers of USB Block Eruptors. And they've actually received their product. Same for people buying Avalon units on eBay when they appear. The arms race is on and it's killing every devices ROI.
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July 28, 2013, 08:58:36 PM
 #2278

The arms race is on and it's killing every devices ROI.
On top of it, the BFL scam is in full swing killing whats left of their customers ROI.
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July 29, 2013, 02:47:21 AM
 #2279

That was redundant, but unfortunately also is BFL's strategies.  It seems like now even Josh is starting to play himself as a victim.  Whether or no the has financial incentive to do so, he is a superstar.  Congratulations to him for at least superseding Hollywood, not that it is much of a compliment in terms of efficiency.
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July 29, 2013, 02:59:45 AM
 #2280

BFL Not a scam in the true sense of the definition, but a massive disappointment to anyone dealing with this company.

When I finally receive my 4x60GH/s, I dont think I will have a return on the investment. Not while 1 BTC = $100 USD and increasing difficulty.
Will anyone here still continue to mine even if the return is negative? (ie, hoping for prices to increase enough in future to make up for it?)
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