Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[massnerder]

Can you elaborate on that?  All I am saying is that I have seen the way they respond on this forum and have not been happy with the attitude they give people.  There are lots of comments in this thread that are far worse than anything I have said.  I never said they are scamming people nor do I think that is the case, but I personally wouldn't order from them.  That is my right just as much as it is their right to cancel orders and choose who they do business with.

[1714891960]

1714891960

[djmarsat]

Can you elaborate on that?  All I am saying is that I have seen the way they respond on this forum and have not been happy with the attitude they give people.  There are lots of comments in this thread that are far worse than anything I have said.  I never said they are scamming people nor do I think that is the case, but I personally wouldn't order from them.  That is my right just as much as it is their right to cancel orders and choose who they do business with.

Not targetted at you massnerder. Just a comment in general about what I've seen discussed on here, it's crossing the line in places.

[massnerder]

Not targetted at you massnerder. Just a comment in general about what I've seen discussed on here, it's crossing the line in places.

Ah... gotcha.   Yea, I can agree with that.

[NoirSuccubus]

Thanks for the info, OP.

[ik2013]

$274 for 5 GH/s sounds so tempting....almost pulled the trigger on it til I started looking at their forums. I'm staying FAR away until I see some units are actually shipping out...it was a nice trick getting the arstechnica.com article out there, they almost got me...

[wrenchmonkey]

Indeed there is a difference. Hence why plenty of people have asked questions, and not had their orders canceled. They aren't canceling orders for every question. They're canceling orders for assholes trashing their business.

I've dealt with plenty of customer questions, and usually do my best to work with them. It's a VEEERRRRY rare occurrence that I tell somebody to GTFO, and it's because they're being an asshole.

We can all see plenty of people who've merely "asked questions" who didn't get their orders canceled, and get blacklisted. So the idea that BFL is canceling orders of those who 'ask questions' is asinine.

And even if they WERE doing so, that's their prerogative. It won't make good business sense, but if they want to cancel every order of any person who asks them a question, they're well within their rights to do so, and you don't have a basis to "Sue or get revenge some other way" as somebody suggested.

If you're gonna talk smack about/cop attitude with a company, be prepared to lose the option to do business with them. If you intend to have a working business relationship with somebody, behave in a manner that fosters feelings of mutual respect. Especially if you're in the position of being hosed if they tell you to get lost.

For every one customer that pulls out or gets booted for running his mouth, there are 10 more willing to take his spot. Beggars can't be choosers.

There was another person in this thread besides the one you quoted who was banned for asking how many units had shipped, not for being an asshole, so I would disagree on whether or not that idea is asinine, but anyway.... You completely sidestep my point here.  What about the potential customers who are treated like shit for simply asking questions?  Because that certainly is happening more often than cancelled orders.  How does talking shit on forums, trashing the people who are trashing your company, and refusing to provide any citations for the claims you make fall under the umbrella of 'good service'?  Not only does it show how concerned they are(not) with keeping customers happy, it damages their reputation as a whole which is also typically bad for business.  Think about it, if a question that irritates Josh or whomever up there could be answered by saying 'Hey, we have addressed that, click here for more info.' - in that case then what type of business person would opt to just call that person who asked an idiot instead, as they have many times over?

MT has it right, as you yourself say "behave in a manner that fosters feelings of mutual respect" - and I don't see that type of behavior coming from BFL.  Not that that is an excuse for the way some people talk about them, but it is an excuse for me to not do business with them.  You originally defended their right to not engage in an abusive customer-business relationship, and that holds true just as much as everybody has the same right not to engage in an abusive business-customer relationship.  You may be great at keeping customers happy, but you aren't BFL, are you?

I have't seen his post, and I haven't seen his other posts, so I can't speak to that, but I'm going to go ahead and HIGHLY doubt that the context was a simple question of number of units shipped. Was he piling on? Had he been harassing them otherwise? I've asked questions, but in a respectful manner, and nothing bad has happened to my order. In fact, I was answered respectfully, and surprisingly quickly.

This forum has a cancer of anti-BFL trolls, so I can see why BFL might be what some would perceive as being overly sensitive; but there are several members who dedicate several hours a day to trashing BFL. So I don't blame them for having a short fuse with people on this particular forum, or with members who chose to pile on in certain trolling threads. Even if they're not necessarily the instigators, the context of piling on can change the meaning of a simple "question" significantly.

Again, if you believe that BFL has something of value to offer (and I genuinely do), then it would behoove you to be respectful of those whom you seek to do business with. I have seen Josh lose his shit with a few members, but never entirely undeservedly. I've put members like Smoothie and NachoLibre (or whoever the fuck), on ignore, and the static has calmed down significantly. There are the n00bs who get out of the n00b cage and straight into trolling, because they think that's how they'll get popular, but they don't keep at it too long, or they make the ignore list as well. If I were at BFL, I'd probably write this forum off altogether, and focus only on the BFL forum. I'm surprised they extend as much courtesy to dealing with people on this forum as it is...

[MooC Tals]

Indeed there is a difference. Hence why plenty of people have asked questions, and not had their orders canceled. They aren't canceling orders for every question. They're canceling orders for assholes trashing their business.

I've dealt with plenty of customer questions, and usually do my best to work with them. It's a VEEERRRRY rare occurrence that I tell somebody to GTFO, and it's because they're being an asshole.

We can all see plenty of people who've merely "asked questions" who didn't get their orders canceled, and get blacklisted. So the idea that BFL is canceling orders of those who 'ask questions' is asinine.

And even if they WERE doing so, that's their prerogative. It won't make good business sense, but if they want to cancel every order of any person who asks them a question, they're well within their rights to do so, and you don't have a basis to "Sue or get revenge some other way" as somebody suggested.

If you're gonna talk smack about/cop attitude with a company, be prepared to lose the option to do business with them. If you intend to have a working business relationship with somebody, behave in a manner that fosters feelings of mutual respect. Especially if you're in the position of being hosed if they tell you to get lost.

For every one customer that pulls out or gets booted for running his mouth, there are 10 more willing to take his spot. Beggars can't be choosers.

There was another person in this thread besides the one you quoted who was banned for asking how many units had shipped, not for being an asshole, so I would disagree on whether or not that idea is asinine, but anyway.... You completely sidestep my point here.  What about the potential customers who are treated like shit for simply asking questions?  Because that certainly is happening more often than cancelled orders.  How does talking shit on forums, trashing the people who are trashing your company, and refusing to provide any citations for the claims you make fall under the umbrella of 'good service'?  Not only does it show how concerned they are(not) with keeping customers happy, it damages their reputation as a whole which is also typically bad for business.  Think about it, if a question that irritates Josh or whomever up there could be answered by saying 'Hey, we have addressed that, click here for more info.' - in that case then what type of business person would opt to just call that person who asked an idiot instead, as they have many times over?

MT has it right, as you yourself say "behave in a manner that fosters feelings of mutual respect" - and I don't see that type of behavior coming from BFL.  Not that that is an excuse for the way some people talk about them, but it is an excuse for me to not do business with them.  You originally defended their right to not engage in an abusive customer-business relationship, and that holds true just as much as everybody has the same right not to engage in an abusive business-customer relationship.  You may be great at keeping customers happy, but you aren't BFL, are you?

I have't seen his post, and I haven't seen his other posts, so I can't speak to that, but I'm going to go ahead and HIGHLY doubt that the context was a simple question of number of units shipped. Was he piling on? Had he been harassing them otherwise? I've asked questions, but in a respectful manner, and nothing bad has happened to my order. In fact, I was answered respectfully, and surprisingly quickly.

This forum has a cancer of anti-BFL trolls, so I can see why BFL might be what some would perceive as being overly sensitive; but there are several members who dedicate several hours a day to trashing BFL. So I don't blame them for having a short fuse with people on this particular forum, or with members who chose to pile on in certain trolling threads. Even if they're not necessarily the instigators, the context of piling on can change the meaning of a simple "question" significantly.

Again, if you believe that BFL has something of value to offer (and I genuinely do), then it would behoove you to be respectful of those whom you seek to do business with. I have seen Josh lose his shit with a few members, but never entirely undeservedly. I've put members like Smoothie and NachoLibre (or whoever the fuck), on ignore, and the static has calmed down significantly. There are the n00bs who get out of the n00b cage and straight into trolling, because they think that's how they'll get popular, but they don't keep at it too long, or they make the ignore list as well. If I were at BFL, I'd probably write this forum off altogether, and focus only on the BFL forum. I'm surprised they extend as much courtesy to dealing with people on this forum as it is...

Then there are people like me. That ordered 2 units and waited, read all I can read and watched every move every update from BFL gave them every chance to redeem themselves. I can make a chronicled detailed month by month account of my experience but as most of you have already made your mind I gues it would fall on deaf ears.

I have also gone on his forum and expressed my concerns about what they're doing and have not gotten into any trouble by any moderators there. I have even had the "privilage" if you want to call it that, of asking Josh reasonable question that to this day has never answered me back. I have asked his the same questions here and also ignored. The question was that when I ordered my units in Oct of 2012 and he was stating that shipments were possible in late Dec what was he so sure was going to be shipped then when he moved to the new location in late Jan and purchased new tabled to assemble the units on. No answer.

How about the promises in Jan,Feb,Mar, and April now were hearing June-July. My orders in Oct would be still waiting to be shipped. What was shipping in Dec that needed me to hurry and place  a pre-order quick to get in line?

I'm just telling it as I see it. My experience if I come off as upset, there is a reason for that. To be honest if you want to ignore me then your just collateral damage as far as I see it.

It's not like I'm going to get a thank you anyways later.
 

[Inaba]

The question was that when I ordered my units in Oct of 2012 and he was stating that shipments were possible in late Dec what was he so sure was going to be shipped then when he moved to the new location in late Jan and purchased new tabled to assemble the units on. No answer.

You received no answer because your question was so incredibly stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer.  I mean, seriously, just stop and use your brain for one second.  Just one second.  How did we manage to assemble and ship thousands of FPGA units?  Do you think they just magically fell out of the sky and we shipped them out?  Don't you think (no, you don't, obviously) that we might use that same facility/tables/benches/chairs/etc... to assemble ASIC units?  Are you really this stupid?

This is why I don't take you seriously... you can't even form a cogent thought on simple mechanics, such as assembly... why should I bother to answer any of your other equally asinine questions if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing as new benches vs old benches.

[MooC Tals]

The question was that when I ordered my units in Oct of 2012 and he was stating that shipments were possible in late Dec what was he so sure was going to be shipped then when he moved to the new location in late Jan and purchased new tabled to assemble the units on. No answer.

You received no answer because your question was so incredibly stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer.  I mean, seriously, just stop and use your brain for one second.  Just one second.  How did we manage to assemble and ship thousands of FPGA units?  Do you think they just magically fell out of the sky and we shipped them out?  Don't you think (no, you don't, obviously) that we might use that same facility/tables/benches/chairs/etc... to assemble ASIC units?  Are you really this stupid?

This is why I don't take you seriously... you can't even form a cogent thought on simple mechanics, such as assembly... why should I bother to answer any of your other equally asinine questions if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing as new benches vs old benches.

This ladies and gentlemen is the conduct of a professional company. Deflect and avoid and attack the customer. Thanks Josh for your attempt to answer my question. No problem I enjoyed you borrowing my money interest free for 3 month.

In Dec what were you going to be able to deliver that was so urgent for me to place a pre-order in Oct?

What was being delivered in DEC ?

Could you be a sweetie and answer that little question for me?

[massnerder]

I'm surprised they extend as much courtesy to dealing with people on this forum as it is...

You received no answer because your question was so incredibly stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer.  I mean, seriously, just stop and use your brain for one second.  Just one second.  How did we manage to assemble and ship thousands of FPGA units?  Do you think they just magically fell out of the sky and we shipped them out?  Don't you think (no, you don't, obviously) that we might use that same facility/tables/benches/chairs/etc... to assemble ASIC units?  Are you really this stupid?

This is why I don't take you seriously... you can't even form a cogent thought on simple mechanics, such as assembly... why should I bother to answer any of your other equally asinine questions if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing as new benches vs old benches.

Yea...  'courtesy'.....  

[MooC Tals]

I'm surprised they extend as much courtesy to dealing with people on this forum as it is...

You received no answer because your question was so incredibly stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer.  I mean, seriously, just stop and use your brain for one second.  Just one second.  How did we manage to assemble and ship thousands of FPGA units?  Do you think they just magically fell out of the sky and we shipped them out?  Don't you think (no, you don't, obviously) that we might use that same facility/tables/benches/chairs/etc... to assemble ASIC units?  Are you really this stupid?

This is why I don't take you seriously... you can't even form a cogent thought on simple mechanics, such as assembly... why should I bother to answer any of your other equally asinine questions if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing as new benches vs old benches.

Yea...  'courtesy'.....  

Heh! You noticed that too eh?  He won't answer that question. I have been asking him that one question for months now. On two forums.

[Arnold37]

Then there are people like me. That ordered 2 units and waited, read all I can read and watched every move every update from BFL gave them every chance to redeem themselves. I can make a chronicled detailed month by month account of my experience but as most of you have already made your mind I gues it would fall on deaf ears.

I have also gone on his forum and expressed my concerns about what they're doing and have not gotten into any trouble by any moderators there. I have even had the "privilage" if you want to call it that, of asking Josh reasonable question that to this day has never answered me back. I have asked his the same questions here and also ignored. The question was that when I ordered my units in Oct of 2012 and he was stating that shipments were possible in late Dec what was he so sure was going to be shipped then when he moved to the new location in late Jan and purchased new tabled to assemble the units on. No answer.

How about the promises in Jan,Feb,Mar, and April now were hearing June-July. My orders in Oct would be still waiting to be shipped. What was shipping in Dec that needed me to hurry and place  a pre-order quick to get in line?

I'm just telling it as I see it. My experience if I come off as upset, there is a reason for that. To be honest if you want to ignore me then your just collateral damage as far as I see it.

It's not like I'm going to get a thank you anyways later.

Even if they deliver anything more then 12 units you did the right thing to leave IMO. People who care more about shit talking "non belivers" then taking care of existing investors and making a kickass ASIC should not be making any hardware or profit  

The question was that when I ordered my units in Oct of 2012 and he was stating that shipments were possible in late Dec what was he so sure was going to be shipped then when he moved to the new location in late Jan and purchased new tabled to assemble the units on. No answer.

You received no answer because your question was so incredibly stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer.  I mean, seriously, just stop and use your brain for one second.  Just one second.  How did we manage to assemble and ship thousands of FPGA units?  Do you think they just magically fell out of the sky and we shipped them out?  Don't you think (no, you don't, obviously) that we might use that same facility/tables/benches/chairs/etc... to assemble ASIC units?  Are you really this stupid?

This is why I don't take you seriously... you can't even form a cogent thought on simple mechanics, such as assembly... why should I bother to answer any of your other equally asinine questions if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing as new benches vs old benches.

You sir seem to be one of those who prefer to shit talk "non belivers". 

I have not programmed any FPGA or built any ASICs but just because you "can" doesnt mean you can proclaim people idiots who dont.

btw. A new bench is a old bench in ten years am i right? An ASIC bench vs a FPGA bench though have a clear distinction. L2Not be an Idiot

[MooC Tals]

___________________________________________________
Butterfly Labs Inc <office@butterflylabs.com>;

This is to confirm that your order no. 10561, pay-dated 10/8/2012, for 1 BitForce Single has been successfully entered into our system.


This is to confirm that your order no. 10833, pay-dated 10/12/2012, for 1 BitForce Jalapeno has been successfully entered into our system.

I have to ask for my refund. Please send it back. In 3 days I will contact My Visa company along with PayPal.

I will accept a firm and confirmed shipping date to continue with my order. If you require additional information to verify orders or you wish to contact me my phone is XXX XXX XXXX.

Thank you.

This is a copy of my email on Tuesday Jan 8 of 2013. I repeatedly threatened a refund if anymore delays were going to happen.

[boyohi]

I want to trust them. I really do. Where else can we get ASIC?

[darkmule]

Thanks to Josh for again demonstrating exactly why I'm thrilled to have nothing to do with Butterfly Labs, the convict-run company represented by a guy who is completely full of bullshido.

As for anyone with nearly year-long advance orders that have little hope of ever being filled. . .keep praying to the criminally convicted Jim "Sonny" Jones that he'll eventually deliver.

And keep drinking that Kool-Aid!  Mmmm, yummy!

[Arnold37]

I want to trust them. I really do. Where else can we get ASIC?

I think ASIC miner have had some succesful auctions but i havent bought any devices from them so Im no wiser. Do som deeper digging in the hardware forums and form your own opinion about them.
Avalon batch #4 seem very far so does BFL.

GL with the mining  

[MooC Tals]

This is all in September of the year 2012. I was led to believe according to this evidence that the units were to begin shipping soon. So as a consumer I based my decision on this. At the time I did not know any of the history behind the BFL company. Check the links and most important CHECK THE DATES.

JOSH what were you shipping soon in Nov? that turned in to Dec?

Is this clear enough for you to understand now?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/16-announcement-bfl-asic-release-specifications.html

Here is an image I have copied in case the page disappears

Josh Zerlan, a BFL representative, expects to have chips in hand by the end of November and begin initial shipments shortly after. The number of units to be shipped in the first batch has not yet been determined. Josh also released new photos of the heat sinks for our viewing pleasure.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/bfl-confirms-65nm-process-for-sc-lineup/





Go check the dates

This is not the only instance i found and this is pretty damning evidence that I believe no one could refuse.

Then you have this http://bitcoinmagazine.com/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/ which is dated for Oct 19, 2012. Here is an image of the page title along with the date highlighted.



And now look at the comments made. Wow better hurry and get those pre-orders in NOW!!!



Notice the dates moving along?

[Inaba]

This is why you're a joke, Mooc.  You keep posting the same shit over and over.  Everyone already knows it, no one cares.

I'm sorry I hurt your widdle feewings by pointing out the fact that you're too stupid to realize that we didn't need new benches to be able to to assemble our units and could use the old ones. I figured any 6 year old child would be able to figure that out, I had no idea you didn't have the cognitive capacity of a pre-schooler.

[Thorgrim]

This is why you're a joke, Mooc.  You keep posting the same shit over and over.  Everyone already knows it, no one cares.

I'm sorry I hurt your widdle feewings by pointing out the fact that you're too stupid to realize that we didn't need new benches to be able to to assemble our units and could use the old ones. I figured any 6 year old child would be able to figure that out, I had no idea you didn't have the cognitive capacity of a pre-schooler.

You should be answering peoples questions instead of making personal attacks.

Who cares if you think they are stupid questions. Your the one that is 6+ months behind.

I considered ordering from you guys. Glad I did a little more research first.

[smoothie]

This is why you're a joke, Mooc.  You keep posting the same shit over and over.  Everyone already knows it, no one cares.

I'm sorry I hurt your widdle feewings by pointing out the fact that you're too stupid to realize that we didn't need new benches to be able to to assemble our units and could use the old ones. I figured any 6 year old child would be able to figure that out, I had no idea you didn't have the cognitive capacity of a pre-schooler.

I care, and every one of your customers appear to care right?

I dont even have an order with BFL and yet I care. I care for the well being of your customers which appear to be strung along fo many many months while you cowboys at BFL can only make excuses why you have not shipped yet.