I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen.

[Come-from-Beyond]

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

Why?

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[QuestionAuthority]

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.  

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.  

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

I don't think the winning system has been designed yet. The main problem with any design is the thing that brilliant scientists can't comprehend because they're too logical, that's simple human nature. Any design will have to completely remove any ability for someone or some group to game it. That may be an impossible task. Satoshi believed he solved that problem by thinking the only motivation for any activity involving money was greed and logical self interest but that's not true. The reality of life is that nothing is ever just black or white. Blackhat hackers spend hundreds of man hours to break into some of the most secure systems in the world for no other reason than to see if they can. Companies will spend a fortune to crush a competitor even if the realized return will never pay for the attack. Governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars on things that don't work. PoW isn't the final solution.

[marcus_of_augustus]

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.  

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.  

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

I don't think the winning system has been designed yet. The main problem with any design is the thing that brilliant scientists can't comprehend because they're too logical, that's simple human nature. Any design will have to completely remove any ability for someone or some group to game it. That may be an impossible task. Satoshi believed he solved that problem by thinking the only motivation for any activity involving money was greed and logical self interest but that's not true. The reality of life is that nothing is ever just black or white. Blackhat hackers spend hundreds of man hours to break into some of the most secure systems in the world for no other reason than to see if they can. Companies will spend a fortune to crush a competitor even if the realized return will never pay for the attack. Governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars on things that don't work. PoW isn't the final solution.

you seem to know all the answers, where's your blueprint for the perfect system?

Working prototype?

or just all yap?

[QuestionAuthority]

It needs more people using it everyday as a payment system instead of miners dumping the coin as soon as they're mined.

Exactly. This is why PoS coins without inflation are not falling that much now and even rising BTC-wise.

I really really enjoy PoS tbh.  

Only started messing around with them since Just-dice started taking CLAM.

It seems to me it prevents a lot of economy leakage through electric bills and ancient miners (seriously when I look at a miner now days it reminds me of a 1970's printer.)

I imagine you'd have a large number of Bitcoin miners who would be seriously butthurt about PoS.  

Seems silly to expect BTC to go global and WANT to give that much money to the fat cat electric companies rather than reward your own kind.

I "mine" about a Bitcoin a day using PoS right now completely eco friendly and no huge electric bill.

Yeah, the PoW system is looking more nutty to me every day. It's not just the wastefulness, scalability, or the equipment cost in upgrades and failures but the fact that eventually it has to become centralized. I have been here through every 51% scare starting with Deepbit and understand this system just can't be controlled with "goodwill" anymore. The arguments for the wasteful energy use are always beaten down with the claim that the modern banking system uses at least that much energy or more to move money around. Aren't we trying to be better than the current system though? The "we're the same as they are" argument just seems stupid to me. I don't know if PoS is the answer but something needs to change.

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

I don't think the winning system has been designed yet. The main problem with any design is the thing that brilliant scientists can't comprehend because they're too logical, that's simple human nature. Any design will have to completely remove any ability for someone or some group to game it. That may be an impossible task. Satoshi believed he solved that problem by thinking the only motivation for any activity involving money was greed and logical self interest but that's not true. The reality of life is that nothing is ever just black or white. Blackhat hackers spend hundreds of man hours to break into some of the most secure systems in the world for no other reason than to see if they can. Companies will spend a fortune to crush a competitor even if the realized return will never pay for the attack. Governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars on things that don't work. PoW isn't the final solution.

you seem to know all the answers, where's your blueprint for the perfect system?

Working prototype?

or just all yap?

Yes, that's a very popular thing to say here, isn't it? These are just my opinions and the historical fact that people vote with their feet. I don't need to design anything. That's not my job. I'm a user of crypto currency. I'm the customer. The designers need to convince me to trust them with my money.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Yes, that's a very popular thing to say here, isn't it? These are just my opinions and the historical fact that people vote with their feet. I don't need to design anything. That's not my job. I'm a user of crypto currency. I'm the customer. The designers need to convince me to trust them with my money.

... and at that point you are incentivised to convince everybody else to use your chosen currency, irregardless of the fallacy of your inexperienced or ill-informed opinion ...

and so on and so on the bullshit goes

[QuestionAuthority]

Yes, that's a very popular thing to say here, isn't it? These are just my opinions and the historical fact that people vote with their feet. I don't need to design anything. That's not my job. I'm a user of crypto currency. I'm the customer. The designers need to convince me to trust them with my money.

... and at that point you are incentivised to convince everybody else to use your chosen currency, irregardless of the fallacy of your inexperienced or ill-informed opinion ...

and so on and so on the bullshit goes

Crushing public debate is your chosen method for attracting new business and making improvements? I guess that method works because it's worked for many companies in the past. My chosen currency so far is Bitcoin and you've never seen me say anything different. Since you obviously have the answers why don't you enlighten me? Please, tell me how Bitcoin is perfect and will never require another update.

[BayAreaCoins]

PoS coins, as good as they are, don't work long term though

They are too unsafe

Why?

Then please go break CLAM and www.Just-dice.com to show us.

I'm interested too.

[Flashman]

Then please go break CLAM and www.Just-dice.com to show us.

   These challenges are like saying "I've built an impregnable brick vault on my front lawn and sealed a whole FIVE DOLLARS inside it" ...


i.e. nobody is breaking into it because the jackhammer rental is more than $5....

[BayAreaCoins]

Then please go break CLAM and www.Just-dice.com to show us.

   These challenges are like saying "I've built an impregnable brick vault on my front lawn and sealed a whole FIVE DOLLARS inside it" ...


i.e. nobody is breaking into it because the jackhammer rental is more than $5....

No one saying anything about dollars fucktard.

I'm just saying if you want to test to see if PoS is decent then you got to try to fuck it up.

Dooglus has contributed directly to BTC as well, so seems like a good one to try to fuck up before choosing if BTC should go down that path or not.

[Flashman]

and I'm saying there is a cost to do a decent attempt at fucking up a PoS coin, a threshold value, that does not scale a lot, when market cap of a PoS coin gets big enough, it will be worth fucking up, until then, it's a $5 in a brick vault that remains "impregnable" only because it's not worth $5 to mess with.

[Come-from-Beyond]

and I'm saying there is a cost to do a decent attempt at fucking up a PoS coin, a threshold value, that does not scale a lot, when market cap of a PoS coin gets big enough, it will be worth fucking up, until then, it's a $5 in a brick vault that remains "impregnable" only because it's not worth $5 to mess with.

For a strange reason you divided the number by 10000...

[BayAreaCoins]

and I'm saying there is a cost to do a decent attempt at fucking up a PoS coin, a threshold value, that does not scale a lot, when market cap of a PoS coin gets big enough, it will be worth fucking up, until then, it's a $5 in a brick vault that remains "impregnable" only because it's not worth $5 to mess with.

Ya the costs would be large due to having to buy out 51% of the coin or launching a site like Just-dice.

I wonder if BTC was PoS if Coinbase or someone else would have great than 51% of the coins staking against the network.

The Silk Road obviously would have and there aren't just too many kick ass trustable Bitcoin services to pool coins for staking.  Just-dice is currently WAY over 51% of the staked coins in this lil BS I'm watching and learning from.

I expect PoS would make Bitcoin centralized very fast after watching the "$5 brick" for a month, but that could change as that "$5 bricks" market cap grows + adds services.

If BTC had a market cap of $8 Billion I think it would be more secure to require the attacker to purchase the 51% rather than use a bunch of zombie computers + special made chips.

[Este Nuno]

If BTC had a market cap of $8 Billion I think it would be more secure to require the attacker to purchase the 51% rather than use a bunch of zombie computers + special made chips.

This should be self evident but most Bitcoiners seem to miss this important point.

Even if PoS systems thus far haven't given us our Bitcoin-ready fully robust system sufficiently tested yet, everyone should be supporting research towards that goal. Anyone who doesn't see the obvious benefits of cutting out the mining waste, both financial and environmental, probably just invested all their money in ASICs or something. That or they're crazy.

Mining sucks.

[marcus_of_augustus]

If BTC had a market cap of $8 Billion I think it would be more secure to require the attacker to purchase the 51% rather than use a bunch of zombie computers + special made chips.

This should be self evident but most Bitcoiners seem to miss this important point.

Even if PoS systems thus far haven't given us our Bitcoin-ready fully robust system sufficiently tested yet, everyone should be supporting research towards that goal. Anyone who doesn't see the obvious benefits of cutting out the mining waste, both financial and environmental, probably just invested all their money in ASICs or something. That or they're crazy.

Mining sucks.

mining is what gives bitcoin it's worth

[BayAreaCoins]

mining is what gives bitcoin it's worth

People are what give Bitcoins its worth.  The blockchain is totally fucking worthless without humans (duh...)

Mining is a good way of fucking a lot of people who don't understand 6 ways from Sunday.  It also maybe the thing that saves Bitcoin.  

Time will tell far better than I could speculate, but like I said I think BTC should remain the same and law makers should just fuck off for 5 years to let all this shit get sorted out by the community and user base.

[marcus_of_augustus]

mining is what gives bitcoin it's worth

People are what give Bitcoins its worth.  The blockchain is totally fucking worthless without humans (duh...)

gold, silver, diamonds, aluminium, steel, etc, etc are also effing worthless without humans ... however, if humans value something the expense/cost to dig it up, melt it down, calculate, compute, etc is what gives it worth ... think about it.

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html

...  At first, the production of a commodity simply because it is costly seems quite wasteful. However, the unforgeably costly commodity repeatedly adds value by enabling beneficial wealth transfers. More of the cost is recouped every time a transaction is made possible or made less expensive. The cost, initially a complete waste, is amortized over many transactions. The monetary value of precious metals is based on this principle. It also applies to collectibles, which are more prized the rarer they are and the less forgeable this rarity is. It also applies where provably skilled or unique human labor is added to the product, as with art. ...

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

mining is what gives bitcoin it's worth

People are what give Bitcoins its worth.  The blockchain is totally fucking worthless without humans (duh...)

gold, silver, diamonds, aluminium, steel, etc, etc are also effing worthless without humans ... however, if humans value something the expense/cost to dig it up, melt it down, calculate, compute, etc is what gives it worth ... think about it.

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html

...  At first, the production of a commodity simply because it is costly seems quite wasteful. However, the unforgeably costly commodity repeatedly adds value by enabling beneficial wealth transfers. More of the cost is recouped every time a transaction is made possible or made less expensive. The cost, initially a complete waste, is amortized over many transactions. The monetary value of precious metals is based on this principle. It also applies to collectibles, which are more prized the rarer they are and the less forgeable this rarity is. It also applies where provably skilled or unique human labor is added to the product, as with art. ...

Gold's chemical, electrical, and even some of its physical properties make it such that its rarity is the only thing keeping humans from using it in a variety of ways on a daily basis.

Blockchains are everywhere now. Useful, but not rare

[marcus_of_augustus]

Gold's chemical, electrical, and even some of its physical properties make it such that its rarity is the only thing keeping humans from using it in a variety of ways on a daily basis.

Blockchains are everywhere now. Useful, but not rare

... this is a typically naive objection. Rarity is a necessary but not sufficient condition for money to have value and only one of many monetary properties that a free market evaluates when arriving at valuations.

You have much reading to do, google "subjective theory of value". Ever tried poking 100 ounces of gold through your internet jack to get it to instantly pop out on the other side of the world in your trading partner's hands?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Gold's chemical, electrical, and even some of its physical properties make it such that its rarity is the only thing keeping humans from using it in a variety of ways on a daily basis.

Blockchains are everywhere now. Useful, but not rare

... this is a typically naive objection. Rarity is a necessary but not sufficient condition for money to have value and only one of many monetary properties that a free market evaluates when arriving at valuations.

You have much reading to do, google "subjective theory of value". Ever tried poking 100 ounces of gold through your internet jack to get it to instantly pop out on the other side of the world in your trading partner's hands?

You missed my point maybe. If rarity is a necessary condition, and blockchains aren't rare...

Because logic.

[marcus_of_augustus]

You missed my point maybe. If rarity is a necessary condition, and blockchains aren't rare...

Because logic.

.. quite sure that you've missed mine.

There is only ONE bitcoin blockchain that will never have more than 21 million tradeable units. The bootstrap phase is already over, bitcoin is money, end of story. If you think you can bootstrap similar network effect value into a competing decentralised blockchain and computing hash-backed secure transaction network, good luck to you. Altcoins