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Question: Closing BTC Price June 28:
$0 - 0 (0%)
<$7,000 - 0 (0%)
$7,000-$7,499 - 0 (0%)
$7,500-$7,999 - 0 (0%)
$8,000-$8,499 - 0 (0%)
$8,500-$8,999 - 0 (0%)
$9,000-$9,499 - 0 (0%)
$9,500-$9,999 - 0 (0%)
$10,000-$10,499 - 0 (0%)
$10,500-10,999 - 0 (0%)
$11,000-$11,499 - 0 (0%)
$11,500-$12,000 - 0 (0%)
>$12,000 - 0 (0%)
>$20,000 - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 0

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21230064 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (66 posts by 16 users deleted.)
infofront
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March 21, 2018, 06:41:06 PM
Merited by xhomerx10 (2), yefi (1), JayJuanGee (1)

Considering ETH and EOS didn’t exist in 2014, and XRP was a dog, it’s all a bit fishy.  

2014 was mostly in fiat. Tried a little with PPC and LTC, but got out as soon as I was sober. ETH earned most in 2015, XRP and EOS earned most in 2017

That’s lovely. Why don’t you toddle off and go buy some $ICX or whatever it is you kids get up to these days.

Give me enough tears and I will go, I promise!

Whatever discomfort the failure to break back up through the ~$9,000 resistance has caused me is being offset by the pleasure of deleting your posts.  Smiley
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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March 21, 2018, 06:45:22 PM

Man so many people posting "This user is currently ignored." lately, is this a slogan or something?

Could be a sign that you are overdoing your attempt to remain pure?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
explorer
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March 21, 2018, 06:46:19 PM

Is this worrying to any of you veterans?

http://fortune.com/2018/03/20/bitcoin-price-blockchain-child-porn-ban-crime/

I'm usually able to shrug off MSM bitcoin FUD but this makes me nervous.

I don't think that government regulations will pose a real threat anytime soon. They know for years already, that bitcoin is mostly used for illegal activities like drugs and child porn, but they aren't doing anything about it. They're possible the same people, who profit most from all this money laundering and the creation of a make-believe industry, that adds value to their fiat money. If they really wanted to stop this, then all of this would be worthless in a month.

And how would they accomplish making "all of this" worthless in a month?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Total and PURE FUD!

Is the equivalent of saying that because someone painted pornography on on a wall they should demolish the house.

Fuck you FUDSTERS! 

And then cleanse the town with fire...
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March 21, 2018, 07:03:11 PM

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (  Grin )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.


At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.

3 Pools that  can quickly be abandoned by miners for other pools.

Takes moments to do.

In all honesty, I myself have always considered a 51% attack on any PoW or PoS coin a very low key threat. I was just replaying to the previous poster on why bitcoin isn't special in decentralization.

Its true, considering how difficulty targeting takes time with BTC unlike other coins having collusion with this much decentralization is next to impossible for many reasons both social and technical.

I do however have a growing concern with news articles and write ups coming from respected banking and tech institutions that elude to the idea that the only ground breaking technology worth anything is blockchain and that the rest associated with bitcoin can be cast aside.

Bitcoin is the rising tide and this attempt to disregard the Bitcoin network as a trivial thing is disconcerting.

Bitcoin has 3 important aspects to it that can't be ignored, disregarded  or trivialized as unimportant.

The size of overall hashrate doesn't mater much if the network is distributed between pools.

Most people in finance see the bitcoiners that come with bitcoin as dead weight. They are interested in shaping the technology and using it to personal advantage. No one is interested in making a bunch of people rich just for purchasing a digital token. And they can't be blamed for this because in the capitalist world we live in, it's the only logical choice. "The loyalty of Bitcoiner" isn't exactly higly valued, because well, bitcoiners come to the market mostly to consume, not to create.

Indeed that loyalty is not what I am implying. Its similar to anyone who may come along and say they wish to create their version of the internet. Some have argued that the most vocal people in "finance" are clueless with real world events and future prediction of human social evolutionary needs.

Factor in my recent post on how some in finance say that Bitcoin is overvalued but fail to understand there are serious benefits for it.

For instance some still feel the need to invest heavily into hardware mining for one reason or another and even tho it would prove more profitable to simply by Bitcoin at BTC/USD present rate.

Here is the numbers for you to review. I purposely only included hardware and electrical costs to simplify an already complex mining example of what it takes to make a single BTC at the interval rate of one every 12 days and 1 every day.

IMO you would have a better return if you solo mine if you had this much hash power.

What does it cost to generate 1BTC?

The fact that many don't understand what it takes to secure one bitcoin when statements like it costs fails to give the simple value at what interval is "ONE" bitcoin made.

This document shows how much mining power you would need to security one BTC a day and every 12 Days since difficulty is adjusting every 12-14 days on average.

To produce one bitcoin a day using the latest hardware from Bitmain would take an investment of $2,366,417.19 USD or about 250 BTC to secure a quantity of 1,020 S9 13.5 TH ASIC mining units. That equals a total hash rate of 13,770TH or 13.77 PH.

As you can see if you factor in just hardware loan repayment and power costs never mind any other type of costs and you run at a loss at $9500.00 - There are far better investments you can do than invest 2.3 million USD instead of hardware.

However those that do mine know that BTC at this price is a buy opportunity rather than investing in hardware.

Document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11QS1BBV11KNGTF8N_-fdfmjTZ3WzPQFbLfVrl5n6R8s/edit?usp=sharing





Thank you for the well written reply.

It is possible that I am clueless regarding bitcoin. I just don't find this possibility highly probable. I think that the mentality involving bitcoiners is a little religious and therefor can be irrational and unpredictable. That is why I also often get surprised here.

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.
Yeah, you would have better return alone, already by just losing pool fee. But sadly bitcoin isn't built in a way that it could be mined alone. Centralization and specialization were inevitable with the coming of ASICs and that was a big part of the reason why I lost faith in bitcoin. I see bitcoin ASIC mining as a foolish rat race that should not exist under the rule of common sense. All of this was about finding the cheapest solution to offer the most, now it's totally upside down.

But thank you again for the well written post. I don't see many of them here. I did enjoy reading the stats that you showed, but I just can't agree that motivating bitcoin mining is a good thing.

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March 21, 2018, 07:04:11 PM

*collects tears when everyone are busy crying*

Yup, that's my preferred method of collecting tears and Bitcoin. Lovely way to do it.

If you are collecting bitcoins now, then I'm afraid that you might be a little too quick on your feet. I came here today because I sensed a cloud of tears and I don't see any light to blissful happiness yet.

Is this roach or a new fucktard in this thread? (Jacques)
Hasn't mentioned precious metals or joos in the latest 4 posts. Can't be old Roach.

Connard in French is a blockhead, bollockhead. By extension, Bittard is a dickhead.

So my estimate is: New self-appointed dickhead (French name checks out).
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March 21, 2018, 07:24:56 PM

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

If anything, you've got that backwards.

Quote
I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.

Look at the wastefulness of the legacy banking industry. Think about all the brick and mortar financial offices, banking branches, etc., and the electricity and heating fuel needed to run them. Now think about all of the gas-guzzling armored cars driving all over the world constantly to transport fiat, and the passenger cars transporting thousands (millions?) of financial industry workers daily. You could even considred the incredible amount of waste in human productivity, the economic drain of financial friction, etc. You could even begin to think about all of the human misery caused all over the world by corruption, and how triple entry accounting via bitcoin can change that, but I digress.

Bitcoin is, in fact, much more energy efficient than the legacy banking system. Also, we're still in the early days.
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March 21, 2018, 07:29:30 PM

Is this worrying to any of you veterans?

http://fortune.com/2018/03/20/bitcoin-price-blockchain-child-porn-ban-crime/

I'm usually able to shrug off MSM bitcoin FUD but this makes me nervous.

I don't think that government regulations will pose a real threat anytime soon. They know for years already, that bitcoin is mostly used for illegal activities like drugs and child porn, but they aren't doing anything about it. They're possible the same people, who profit most from all this money laundering and the creation of a make-believe industry, that adds value to their fiat money. If they really wanted to stop this, then all of this would be worthless in a month.

And how would they accomplish making "all of this" worthless in a month?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Total and PURE FUD!

Is the equivalent of saying that because someone painted pornography on on a wall they should demolish the house.

Fuck you FUDSTERS! 

And then cleanse the town with fire...


All of us veterans have known about that link to child porn for half a decade.

We also figured out back then that having a link to something does not mean you have something.

That was back when threads on this forum were relevant and we discussed things. Instead of being just tools to get peoples' signature campaigns post counts.
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yes


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March 21, 2018, 07:32:21 PM

Bitcoin is, in fact, much more energy efficient than the legacy banking system. Also, we're still in the early days.

Oh no, a rational thinker. Can’t have that  Grin
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March 21, 2018, 07:33:12 PM

Something is very, very wrong, in the sampling methodology... if there is any at all!

Yes, the sampling methodology is certainly suspect. However, the fact that the percentage that indicated they already hold cryptos is ~ same as those saying they plan on it is very interesting.
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March 21, 2018, 07:33:33 PM

That was back when threads on this forum were relevant and we discussed things. Instead of being just tools to get peoples' signature campaigns post counts.

At least in this thread, signatures are suppressed - a blessing, I'd say.

We do have to put up with uninformed dickheads and shills and FUDsters, but we have valid contrarian voices and a healthy discussion, if we manage to skip the shitposts without soiling ourselves.

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March 21, 2018, 07:34:11 PM

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

If anything, you've got that backwards.

Quote
I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.

Look at the wastefulness of the legacy banking industry. Think about all the brick and mortar financial offices, banking branches, etc., and the electricity and heating fuel needed to run them. Now think about all of the gas-guzzling armored cars driving all over the world constantly to transport fiat, and the passenger cars transporting thousands (millions?) of financial industry workers daily. You could even considred the incredible amount of waste in human productivity, the economic drain of financial friction, etc. You could even begin to think about all of the human misery caused all over the world by corruption, and how triple entry accounting via bitcoin can change that, but I digress.

Bitcoin is, in fact, much more energy efficient than the legacy banking system. Also, we're still in the early days.

Again I see someone using whataboutism in a ugly manner.  Banking in general and bitcoin specifically are as comparable as a fidget spinner and a Rolls-Royce 900 Trent turbofan engine. The magnitude, properties and the general concept of things is just totally different, with only very vague similarities. You can only recruit new bitcoiners among the very dumb with this form of demagogy.
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March 21, 2018, 07:37:04 PM
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I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (  Grin )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.


At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.
If you hate bitcoin so much why are you here?

I'm here for the tears of bitcoiners and sometimes some rainmaking is needed. Also, the sentiment here can also be a good indicator to help with my crypto gambling habbits.
Quote
centralization will only matter to low educated millennials

If you are here, its due to the internet which is... decentralised.   Yes it was designed that way quite famously, I thought everyone had heard of this.   Its very significant overall but also to crypto because otherwise it would be far easier to disrupt crypto standards.

So who does it matter to, everybody.     Not everyone has to use crypto but it should be considered in this way, in relation to the dollar reserve standard which is incredibly flawed and very much centralised.   Its an ongoing dynamic not a sales pitch to anyone or a slogan.   There are effects in play worth noting, this contrast between distribution and centralised authority and its effect on the failure of capitalism in the modern world is about the most important topic I can think of.
   Everyone is involved, either they speak or they haven't yet learnt the words or dont even understand the problem.  I dont think I'm wrong in assuming peak crypto could coincide with everyone speaking and everyone recognises there is a problem to global trade based on one country's currency.   Its been a known point of failure from its outset 70 years ago
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March 21, 2018, 07:37:34 PM

Something is very, very wrong, in the sampling methodology... if there is any at all!

Yes, the sampling methodology is certainly suspect. However, the fact that the percentage that indicated they already hold cryptos is ~ same as those saying they plan on it is very interesting.


I have the feeling most of those who already hold crypto are old school hodlers and still accumulating by BTFD-ing.  This would explain the closeness of the two ratios.

Newcomers, FOMOers etc. do exist, of course, but if the sampling is done in specific communities as it's likely given the results (Reddit? Bitcointalk?), their numbers are quite small.
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March 21, 2018, 07:40:44 PM
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The general consensus is we are going down further, maybe to re-test the 6k range or below.  Im hoping we do so I can go all in.  What a great opportunity it was last time and I missed out.  I dont plan on making the same mistake again.

Looks like you are already making the same mistake again.

Q: When is the best day to buy into Bitcoin?
a: Today. The correct answer is always 'Today'. You can't buy it yesterday. Tomorrow might be cheaper, and might not. It may never again be as cheap as today. The only certainty left is that in the future, it will be more expensive.  So, today is the day.
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March 21, 2018, 07:41:55 PM

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (  Grin )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.


At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.

3 Pools that  can quickly be abandoned by miners for other pools.

Takes moments to do.

In all honesty, I myself have always considered a 51% attack on any PoW or PoS coin a very low key threat. I was just replaying to the previous poster on why bitcoin isn't special in decentralization.

Its true, considering how difficulty targeting takes time with BTC unlike other coins having collusion with this much decentralization is next to impossible for many reasons both social and technical.

I do however have a growing concern with news articles and write ups coming from respected banking and tech institutions that elude to the idea that the only ground breaking technology worth anything is blockchain and that the rest associated with bitcoin can be cast aside.

Bitcoin is the rising tide and this attempt to disregard the Bitcoin network as a trivial thing is disconcerting.

Bitcoin has 3 important aspects to it that can't be ignored, disregarded  or trivialized as unimportant.

The size of overall hashrate doesn't mater much if the network is distributed between pools.

Most people in finance see the bitcoiners that come with bitcoin as dead weight. They are interested in shaping the technology and using it to personal advantage. No one is interested in making a bunch of people rich just for purchasing a digital token. And they can't be blamed for this because in the capitalist world we live in, it's the only logical choice. "The loyalty of Bitcoiner" isn't exactly higly valued, because well, bitcoiners come to the market mostly to consume, not to create.

Indeed that loyalty is not what I am implying. Its similar to anyone who may come along and say they wish to create their version of the internet. Some have argued that the most vocal people in "finance" are clueless with real world events and future prediction of human social evolutionary needs.

Factor in my recent post on how some in finance say that Bitcoin is overvalued but fail to understand there are serious benefits for it.

For instance some still feel the need to invest heavily into hardware mining for one reason or another and even tho it would prove more profitable to simply by Bitcoin at BTC/USD present rate.

Here is the numbers for you to review. I purposely only included hardware and electrical costs to simplify an already complex mining example of what it takes to make a single BTC at the interval rate of one every 12 days and 1 every day.

IMO you would have a better return if you solo mine if you had this much hash power.

What does it cost to generate 1BTC?

The fact that many don't understand what it takes to secure one bitcoin when statements like it costs fails to give the simple value at what interval is "ONE" bitcoin made.

This document shows how much mining power you would need to security one BTC a day and every 12 Days since difficulty is adjusting every 12-14 days on average.

To produce one bitcoin a day using the latest hardware from Bitmain would take an investment of $2,366,417.19 USD or about 250 BTC to secure a quantity of 1,020 S9 13.5 TH ASIC mining units. That equals a total hash rate of 13,770TH or 13.77 PH.

As you can see if you factor in just hardware loan repayment and power costs never mind any other type of costs and you run at a loss at $9500.00 - There are far better investments you can do than invest 2.3 million USD instead of hardware.

However those that do mine know that BTC at this price is a buy opportunity rather than investing in hardware.

Document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11QS1BBV11KNGTF8N_-fdfmjTZ3WzPQFbLfVrl5n6R8s/edit?usp=sharing





Thank you for the well written reply.

It is possible that I am clueless regarding bitcoin. I just don't find this possibility highly probable. I think that the mentality involving bitcoiners is a little religious and therefor can be irrational and unpredictable. That is why I also often get surprised here.

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.
Yeah, you would have better return alone, already by just losing pool fee. But sadly bitcoin isn't built in a way that it could be mined alone. Centralization and specialization were inevitable with the coming of ASICs and that was a big part of the reason why I lost faith in bitcoin. I see bitcoin ASIC mining as a foolish rat race that should not exist under the rule of common sense. All of this was about finding the cheapest solution to offer the most, now it's totally upside down.

But thank you again for the well written post. I don't see many of them here. I did enjoy reading the stats that you showed, but I just can't agree that motivating bitcoin mining is a good thing.



Bitcoin mining is just one aspect of the big picture, I simply use it as a way to help me and others see things from a different perspective.

As you had pointed out, the nature of greed can undermine any project. But as this is an open market, if mining makes business sense then so be it.

At this price point for many it does not. Yet the network continues to grow.

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March 21, 2018, 07:44:12 PM

That was back when threads on this forum were relevant and we discussed things. Instead of being just tools to get peoples' signature campaigns post counts.
At least in this thread, signatures are suppressed - a blessing, I'd say.

We do have to put up with uninformed dickheads and shills and FUDsters, but we have valid contrarian voices and a healthy discussion, if we manage to skip the shitposts without soiling ourselves.
Couldn't agree more.


"Load a deep. Zidewayz until azleep, den crash eet wit de exakt same Korea FUD. Get Vitaleek on zee line..."
Hey Bob, how many beerz today?
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March 21, 2018, 07:51:37 PM

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (  Grin )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.


At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.
If you hate bitcoin so much why are you here?

I'm here for the tears of bitcoiners and sometimes some rainmaking is needed. Also, the sentiment here can also be a good indicator to help with my crypto gambling habbits.
Quote
centralization will only matter to low educated millennials

If you are here, its due to the internet which is... decentralised.   Yes it was designed that way quite famously, I thought everyone had heard of this.   Its very significant overall but also to crypto because otherwise it would be far easier to disrupt crypto standards.

So who does it matter to, everybody.     Not everyone has to use crypto but it should be considered in this way, in relation to the dollar reserve standard which is incredibly flawed and very much centralised.   Its an ongoing dynamic not a sales pitch to anyone or a slogan.   There are effects in play worth noting, this contrast between distribution and centralised authority and its effect on the failure of capitalism in the modern world is about the most important topic I can think of.
   Everyone is involved, either they speak or they haven't yet learnt the words or dont even understand the problem.  I dont think I'm wrong in assuming peak crypto could coincide with everyone speaking and everyone recognises there is a problem to global trade based on one country's currency.   Its been a known point of failure from its outset 70 years ago


The internet was mostly decentralized, now most of it's internet traffic is centralized to few large corporation. Value and usability have only risen together with centralization, so I repeat, that not many care about centralization. Efficiency to move large amounts of information cheap was the reason that caused Internets success. People don't care if it's centralized or not, just as long as it works.
And the inefficiency to move information cheap will cause the downfall of bitcoin .
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March 21, 2018, 07:59:16 PM


History rhymes, it never repeats.

Which time best rhymes with now?

Vote here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3174299.0


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March 21, 2018, 08:02:37 PM


History rhymes, it never repeats.

Which time best rhymes with now?

Vote here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3174299.0




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March 21, 2018, 08:12:34 PM

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (  Grin )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.


At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.

3 Pools that  can quickly be abandoned by miners for other pools.

Takes moments to do.

In all honesty, I myself have always considered a 51% attack on any PoW or PoS coin a very low key threat. I was just replaying to the previous poster on why bitcoin isn't special in decentralization.

Its true, considering how difficulty targeting takes time with BTC unlike other coins having collusion with this much decentralization is next to impossible for many reasons both social and technical.

I do however have a growing concern with news articles and write ups coming from respected banking and tech institutions that elude to the idea that the only ground breaking technology worth anything is blockchain and that the rest associated with bitcoin can be cast aside.

Bitcoin is the rising tide and this attempt to disregard the Bitcoin network as a trivial thing is disconcerting.

Bitcoin has 3 important aspects to it that can't be ignored, disregarded  or trivialized as unimportant.

The size of overall hashrate doesn't mater much if the network is distributed between pools.

Most people in finance see the bitcoiners that come with bitcoin as dead weight. They are interested in shaping the technology and using it to personal advantage. No one is interested in making a bunch of people rich just for purchasing a digital token. And they can't be blamed for this because in the capitalist world we live in, it's the only logical choice. "The loyalty of Bitcoiner" isn't exactly higly valued, because well, bitcoiners come to the market mostly to consume, not to create.

Indeed that loyalty is not what I am implying. Its similar to anyone who may come along and say they wish to create their version of the internet. Some have argued that the most vocal people in "finance" are clueless with real world events and future prediction of human social evolutionary needs.

Factor in my recent post on how some in finance say that Bitcoin is overvalued but fail to understand there are serious benefits for it.

For instance some still feel the need to invest heavily into hardware mining for one reason or another and even tho it would prove more profitable to simply by Bitcoin at BTC/USD present rate.

Here is the numbers for you to review. I purposely only included hardware and electrical costs to simplify an already complex mining example of what it takes to make a single BTC at the interval rate of one every 12 days and 1 every day.

IMO you would have a better return if you solo mine if you had this much hash power.

What does it cost to generate 1BTC?

The fact that many don't understand what it takes to secure one bitcoin when statements like it costs fails to give the simple value at what interval is "ONE" bitcoin made.

This document shows how much mining power you would need to security one BTC a day and every 12 Days since difficulty is adjusting every 12-14 days on average.

To produce one bitcoin a day using the latest hardware from Bitmain would take an investment of $2,366,417.19 USD or about 250 BTC to secure a quantity of 1,020 S9 13.5 TH ASIC mining units. That equals a total hash rate of 13,770TH or 13.77 PH.

As you can see if you factor in just hardware loan repayment and power costs never mind any other type of costs and you run at a loss at $9500.00 - There are far better investments you can do than invest 2.3 million USD instead of hardware.

However those that do mine know that BTC at this price is a buy opportunity rather than investing in hardware.

Document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11QS1BBV11KNGTF8N_-fdfmjTZ3WzPQFbLfVrl5n6R8s/edit?usp=sharing





Thank you for the well written reply.

It is possible that I am clueless regarding bitcoin. I just don't find this possibility highly probable. I think that the mentality involving bitcoiners is a little religious and therefor can be irrational and unpredictable. That is why I also often get surprised here.

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.
Yeah, you would have better return alone, already by just losing pool fee. But sadly bitcoin isn't built in a way that it could be mined alone. Centralization and specialization were inevitable with the coming of ASICs and that was a big part of the reason why I lost faith in bitcoin. I see bitcoin ASIC mining as a foolish rat race that should not exist under the rule of common sense. All of this was about finding the cheapest solution to offer the most, now it's totally upside down.

But thank you again for the well written post. I don't see many of them here. I did enjoy reading the stats that you showed, but I just can't agree that motivating bitcoin mining is a good thing.



Bitcoin mining is just one aspect of the big picture, I simply use it as a way to help me and others see things from a different perspective.

As you had pointed out, the nature of greed can undermine any project. But as this is an open market, if mining makes business sense then so be it.

At this price point for many it does not. Yet the network continues to grow.



You explained yourself well and it's a pleasure to converse with you.

It's a good thing that this industry stimulated the current financial climate, but it's very dangerous that this industry is so bitcoin centric. People should come back to earth and acknowledge that you can't create an independently valued currency with this simplistic distribution model. That bitcoin was just the first usable product of this quickly developing industry, like the Altair was with personal computing. If attention is stuck in bitcoin and it's stagnant technological development, just because some crooks made up some goxdollars or tether to draw alot of attention, then to me it's a bad thing for the industry.
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