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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 908649 times)
bitcoinaarush
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October 18, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
 #6221

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?
bitcoinvest
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October 18, 2014, 03:43:53 PM
 #6222

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?


why don't you just read??? the proof of claims form will be available at www.mtgox.com

When they update us for this i'm sure you will know it.... we all wait for that!

But let me ask you all here something.

Mark knows 5-6 programming languages right? Have you seen the documentary movie "THE RISE & RISE of BITCOIN"  if no do it ASAP!
Please pay attention how they entered the server room, he went personaly in and forced them to close the cameras and allowed only part of the room to be record - photo. To me this does not show a 28 year old guy that does not know what he is doing....
After you see the movie please answer me on that: do you think BTC left his "building" from a bug or theft??? Huh?
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October 18, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
 #6223

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?


why don't you just read??? the proof of claims form will be available at www.mtgox.com

When they update us for this i'm sure you will know it.... we all wait for that!

But let me ask you all here something.

Mark knows 5-6 programming languages right? Have you seen the documentary movie "THE RISE & RISE of BITCOIN"  if no do it ASAP!
Please pay attention how they entered the server room, he went personaly in and forced them to close the cameras and allowed only part of the room to be record - photo. To me this does not show a 28 year old guy that does not know what he is doing....
After you see the movie please answer me on that: do you think BTC left his "building" from a bug or theft??? Huh?

What is your point? Seems like you are all over the place when talking about mark and the "theft" or "bug".

I watched the documentary and all I see is a scammer.

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     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
 
macsga
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October 18, 2014, 09:53:46 PM
 #6224

What is your point? Seems like you are all over the place when talking about mark and the "theft" or "bug".

I watched the documentary and all I see is a scammer.

Not a conspiracy theorist here, but to my understanding he (bitcoinvest) has a point. Watched the documentary too and all I saw was a perfectly settled up company and a rather cautious CEO. Something here does not fit. This can't prove anything though. Nor it can argue with the fact that his company is responsible for all the losses.

I'd carefully watch for MtGox news in the future. Something tells me that we're not done with MK or his company yet.

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bitcoinvest
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October 20, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
 #6225

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?


why don't you just read??? the proof of claims form will be available at www.mtgox.com

When they update us for this i'm sure you will know it.... we all wait for that!

But let me ask you all here something.

Mark knows 5-6 programming languages right? Have you seen the documentary movie "THE RISE & RISE of BITCOIN"  if no do it ASAP!
Please pay attention how they entered the server room, he went personaly in and forced them to close the cameras and allowed only part of the room to be record - photo. To me this does not show a 28 year old guy that does not know what he is doing....
After you see the movie please answer me on that: do you think BTC left his "building" from a bug or theft??? Huh?

What is your point? Seems like you are all over the place when talking about mark and the "theft" or "bug".

I watched the documentary and all I see is a scammer.

it's not the first time that i say i lost 99% of my btc on mtgox.com.

So the last thing would be to say, theft or bug?  all i know at the end of the day is that Mark owns me my BTC - MtGox.com

So i'm not supporting anyone. But people.. some parts (like macsga added) do not match! you can't be Sumacher for example and forget your Formula 1 car when going to race.. ( by the way i hope that he is doing fine and will see him soon) .

bitcoinvest
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October 26, 2014, 03:34:52 PM
 #6226

just to mention that i went just now to mtgoxprotest.com and working again.



any news about our btc?? up to now also i see bitcoins.com has not sold
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November 26, 2014, 10:26:52 AM
 #6227

Latest Gox report:
https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20141126_document.pdf

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
Totscha
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November 26, 2014, 10:39:19 AM
 #6228

This one is much more interesting: https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20141126_announcement.pdf
DrApricot
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November 27, 2014, 12:30:06 AM
Last edit: November 27, 2014, 01:02:03 AM by DrApricot
 #6229

Quote
MtGox’s servers and PCs (formatted after deleting all the saved data and software) will be handed over to Payward. All of those assets are located in Japan. Copies of the data (including personal information) and software stored on the server, etc. will remain with and managed by the bankruptcy trustee and used for purposes of examination, administration of properties, and bankruptcy distribution. They will not be included in the transferred assets turned over to Payward.
Ridiculous that all of the hard drives will be scratched. Hard drives are cheap. Kraken should go out to Fry's and buy their own. Good way to destroy the evidence by copying and erasing the originals. These drives should all be held in escrow until such time as all investigations have reached their final conclusion. Are we forgetting that hundreds of millions in BTC and fiat are supposedly missing, or is that just another fairy story, like the one about transaction malleability having somehow been involved with this theft ?

According to another report that I read, Kraken will not even be allowed to directly interview Mark Karpeles, who probably knows more than anyone about what happened. They must submit all questions through Mr. Kobayashi. This doesn't pass the smell test, and doesn't sound like a very serious investigation coming so late in the game--nine months after Mt. Gox collapsed.
bitcoinvest
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November 27, 2014, 01:40:06 AM
 #6230

http://youtu.be/otvYeCwQO8s


Just found it Smiley  we got Goxed video Smiley

at least now kobayashi informed us will take legal action against Mark Karpeles and Tibanne ....
 
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November 27, 2014, 03:29:48 PM
 #6231

Why Karpeles is not even considered as a suspect is beyond me.

- Hundreds of millions are missing
- It has been proven that he lied about TM
- Some data has been corrupted / destroyed according to Kobayashi himself
- He was in the best position to manipulate data and steal the coins

What do they need more Huh

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Totscha
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November 27, 2014, 03:48:57 PM
 #6232

Why Karpeles is not even considered as a suspect is beyond me.

- Hundreds of millions are missing
- It has been proven that he lied about TM
- Some data has been corrupted / destroyed according to Kobayashi himself
- He was in the best position to manipulate data and steal the coins

What do they need more Huh

I'm lost on this one also.

Let's say for the sake of argument he had no malintent and really did lose all those coins. In that case he was at least extremely (if not criminally) negligent and you should bring him before a civil court and get some compensation.

He did get rich by operating the exchange, why should you settle for a loss?
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November 27, 2014, 04:49:05 PM
 #6233


Whats most interesting is the amount in loans karpeles is being asked to pay back:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ngtog/so_mark_karpeles_currently_has_a_personal_loan_of/

Great to see kraken on board, i smell a fraud charge coming MKs way.
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December 02, 2014, 08:29:40 PM
 #6234

updates on www.mtgoxprotest.com and Kolin Burges

Thanks Oliver for the updates !
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December 03, 2014, 12:21:19 AM
 #6235

updates on www.mtgoxprotest.com and Kolin Burges
Thanks Oliver for the updates !

Good report!

I disagree with the assessment that no progress has been made.  It may be less than what the creditors expected, but is more than what I expected.  Even simple bankruptcy procedures are slow, and this one is quite unusual and complicated.  Kobayashi must folow legal procedures at every step, document his actions and other people's reactions, give sufficient time for formal replies...

I find it quite encouraging that Kobayashi is actively trying to get back the money that Mark took:

Quote
Karpeles and his companies are seemingly not giving the $13 million back that they took from MtGox. [ ... ] After pressure from Kobayashi to repay he now says he will try to repay it after he raises the funds. [ ... ] His company Shade 3D which owes $3m has provided a repayment plan which Kobayashi didn't accept, in other words Karpeles would not agree to pay it back in any acceptable way. [ ... ] If they don't produce a better plan they will be forced into bankruptcy by Kobayashi. [ ... ] The Bitcoin Cafe owes around $550,000 but there is a dispute with the amount and now a petition to bankrupt the company has been filed. [ ... ] Karpeles has a personal “loan” of around $1.2 million from MtGox, and he has not provided a replayment plan. In other words it doesn't seem like he's planning to pay it back. So Kobayashi will take legal action if this continues.

I guess that the "legal action" in the last sentence would be criminal charges for fraudulent management (when managers spend lots of company money on their own salaries,  or in other ways that will end up in their pockets, while creditors are unpaid).  In that case his personal properties will be seized and auctioned (as they did with Madoff).

On the other hand, it is indeed likely that most of that money was spent and cannot be recovered.  Unless Mark, threatened with jail time, suddenly "finds another old format bitcoin wallet that he had forgotten about"

My reading is also that Kobayashi and the consultants that he hired are working hard enough, trying to make sense of MtGOX's  database and other records.  AFAIK, this was the first reliable confirmation ever that the database was compromised.  Another reason to expect that mark will face criminal proceedings.

Quote
Kobayashi also said they don't think it's weird to be getting help from Karpeles. [ ... ] The fact is that the data should have been signed over to a 3rd party at the very beginning.

Kobayashi already said that the all files were secured as soon as he could, with the help of experts from Fujitsu, and copies were given to the consultants.  Mark and/or other employees may have doctored the records before the trustee took over, but I do not see any danger that he could alter or erase anything now.

It is quite natural to interrogate the management of a failed company about its operations, and the organization and meaning of its records.   Those statements are usually taken under oath, so Mark would face additional criminal charges (perjury, contempt of court, obstruction of justice...) if he were caught lying or trying to sidetrack the investigation.  However, depending on the local laws, he may have the right to refuse to provide information that would incriminate himsef.

Quote
Kobayashi said that they regard them as separate companies and we might think it's illegal to keep the companies separate but it isn't.

Unfortunately, creating multi-layer companies is a standard trick that sleazy entrepreneurs often use to dodge the laws.  Thus they can let debts, liabilities, and unpaid taxes pile up in one company, which is destined for bankruptcy, while transferring its revenue to the other company.

For the purposes of bankruptcy, and perhaps other civil proceedings, Tibanne is just another company that provided services to MtGOX.  While MtGOX was insolvent and, for that reason, had to be liquidated, Tibanne is doing pretty well and has no debts.  I guess that this shielding will be ineffective if Mark (not MtGOX) is charged with fraudulent management ("piercing the corporate veil").

On the other hand, I was disappointed by the lack of any questions about the accounting method that will be used to define the claim of each client.  Is everybody still assuming that his claim is just his final MtGOX account balance?  There may be unwelcome surprises there.

Finally, I cannot stop thinking that some of the alleged victims may in fact be accomplices -- e.g. clients who got non-existent coins and/or money credited to their accounts.  The database may have been doctored to hide fraudulent trading and accounting.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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December 03, 2014, 05:03:15 PM
 #6236

updates on www.mtgoxprotest.com and Kolin Burges
Thanks Oliver for the updates !


Kobayashi already said that the all files were secured as soon as he could, with the help of experts from Fujitsu, and copies were given to the consultants.  Mark and/or other employees may have doctored the records before the trustee took over, but I do not see any danger that he could alter or erase anything now.

[.......]

Finally, I cannot stop thinking that some of the alleged victims may in fact be accomplices -- e.g. clients who got non-existent coins and/or money credited to their accounts.  The database may have been doctored to hide fraudulent trading and accounting.
True enough--Willy-bot, Markus-bot, TIBANNE_LIMITED_HK / THK--are all indications of some abuse having occurred there at Mt. Gox, yet still you see absolutely zero risk in erasing/reformatting the original Mt. Gox server hard drives, as the the trustee indicates he plans to have done before they are transferred to Kraken?  Then with these proceedings, how sure can we be that the fox has not been guarding the hen house?
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December 03, 2014, 05:50:13 PM
 #6237

True enough--Willy-bot, Markus-bot, TIBANNE_LIMITED_HK / THK--are all indications of some abuse having occurred there at Mt. Gox, yet still you see absolutely zero risk in erasing/reformatting the original Mt. Gox server hard drives, as the the trustee indicates he plans to have done before they are transferred to Kraken?  Then with these proceedings, how sure can we be that the fox has not been guarding the hen house?

I did not recall saying that.  What I said is that I do not see risk in interrogating Mark, as long as the drives are in the hands of the receiver. 

I am not happy either with erasing the disks, since advanced forensics could recover files from them that were deleted prior to the receiver taking control.  Any such deleted files probably were not copied when  Fujitsu (or whoever) made the full-image copies.  Perhaps you should point that out  to the receiver.

Actually, I do not see why Kraken would want those disks. 

Actually, I see some risk in involving Kraken. At this stage, every bitcoin entrepreneur is in principle suspect of involvement in the disappearance of the coins, IMHO.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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December 03, 2014, 06:58:18 PM
 #6238

I am not happy either with erasing the disks, since advanced forensics could recover files from them that were deleted prior to the receiver taking control.  Any such deleted files probably were not copied when  Fujitsu (or whoever) made the full-image copies.  Perhaps you should point that out  to the receiver.

My only consolation in the matter is that it's unlikely to restore something from modern hard disks, if it has been already physically overwritten. Data which was just logical deleted should endure also on the images (if they were made professionally). So, there is some hope. Nevertheless, it's a shame that they delete the data at such an early stage. A bad sign even if it not cause any further damage.
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December 03, 2014, 07:22:32 PM
 #6239

On the other hand, I was disappointed by the lack of any questions about the accounting method that will be used to define the claim of each client.  Is everybody still assuming that his claim is just his final MtGOX account balance?  There may be unwelcome surprises there.

Yep!
Put it also on my blog:

http://www.olivere.de/blog/archives/2014/11/30/open_letter_to_mtgox_trustee/

The task of the trustee is to disappoint as few people as possible. Otherwise he will drown in lawsuits and counter-measures.

Finally, I cannot stop thinking that some of the alleged victims may in fact be accomplices -- e.g. clients who got non-existent coins and/or money credited to their accounts.  The database may have been doctored to hide fraudulent trading and accounting.

I know for sure that Gox credited coins by bad programming that people never had. Customers in the German forum have reported that. People just keeped this coins. Coins for "free".  Undecided
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December 04, 2014, 01:31:41 AM
 #6240

On the other hand, I was disappointed by the lack of any questions about the accounting method that will be used to define the claim of each client.  Is everybody still assuming that his claim is just his final MtGOX account balance?  There may be unwelcome surprises there.
Yep!  Put it also on my blog:
http://www.olivere.de/blog/archives/2014/11/30/open_letter_to_mtgox_trustee/
The task of the trustee is to disappoint as few people as possible. Otherwise he will drown in lawsuits and counter-measures.

Well, here is your first surprise.  It is NOT the creditors who decide the way claims are to be computed and how the spoils are returned.  There are laws and precedents; the trustee will propose suitable formulas and methods to the judge, and then the judge will decide.  I repeat, in case I was not suffirciently clear: the judge decides how the liquidation will happen, within the limits of laws and precedents, not the creditors.

The creditors may (politely and humbly) offer their preferences and suggestions to the trustee, but the trustee is not required to pay attention to them: the only person he must satisfy is the judge.  Yes, the trustee may, and probably will, disappoint the creditors (especially if the creditors insist in believing that they can tell him what to do).  He  will not "drown in lawsuits and counter-measures", because his work will be approved by the judge, step by step, until the funds are distributed -- and you cannot sue a judge just because you did not like his decisions.  

Understand that the trustee is not a servant of the creditors; he is an "employee" of the judge, and was charged by the judge with the task of gathering the assets and claims, and drawing a distribution plan that will satisfy the judge.

That is why you should ASK your lawyer what the laws say about such liquidations, and ASK the trustee what he plans to do.  ASK, and after that maybe SUGGEST; not TELL.  And you had better let a lawyer write up your suggestions, if you want the trustee and the judge to pay attention to them.  

(You don't tell the surgeon how he should proceed with your liver transplant.  If you really think you must, you should tell your concerns to your doctor, and let him talk to the surgeon, in the proper terms.)

I know for sure that Gox credited coins by bad programming that people never had. Customers in the German forum have reported that. People just keeped this coins. Coins for "free".  Undecided

And that is one of the reasons that may force the truestee to ignore the account balances, and use some other formula to compute the amount owed to each client.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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