MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[solex]

Holding someone's money hostage is a big deal.

I left mtgox in June last year after it was obvious they were blatantly lying with their TwoWeeks^TM mantra, and were holding money hostage.

You knew this too and allowed $5k to get stuck on gox. Just because you like hammering gox you don't need to hammer bitstamp as well. Bitstamp have behaved honorably at all times.

[tvbcof]

Holding someone's money hostage is a big deal.

I left mtgox in June last year after it was obvious they were blatantly lying with their TwoWeeks^TM mantra, and were holding money hostage.

You knew this too and allowed $5k to get stuck on gox. Just because you like hammering gox you don't need to hammer bitstamp as well. Bitstamp have behaved honorably at all times.

No.  They did not.  That is the only reason I am hammering on them.  I honestly think that what their methods involving the lock-down of BTC withdrawls was poorly handled and will certainly be looked back upon as a red-flag if they end up being crooks.

In fact Mt. Gox behaved with a surprising degree of honor back in 2011, or gave that appearance to a lot of reasonably observant people (except for those who the did actually burn.)  Karpeles could have walked away at that time a very wealthy guy and with a lot fewer enemies to deal with.  I had my suspicions that they were crooks back then, but eventually decided that I was mostly wrong.  Even today I am not totally convinced that Mt. Gox are crooks until more solid data is available.  I pulled my money out of Mt. Gox more because it was clear that they were on the USG's shit-list than that I suspected them of being crooks.

As for Bitstamp, I'm by no means sure that they are crooks either.  I would put the odds at somewhat over 50% however on the basis of their reticence to provide company details and the issues involving the BTC withdraw lockdown.  I'd be happy if time proves that they are clean and I mis-estimated.

The only two entities who I put some value at risk with at this time are Coinbase and Blockchain.info.  Even here I'm not totally confident that they are clean.  They just seem to me somewhat less likely to steal my BTC than most.

I also would be perfectly willing to use a known crooked vendor as long as I have some control over my risks.  I employed a 'hit-n-run' strategy as much as possible back when I was using an exchange (Tradehill-1) just in case they were crooks.  I'm pretty sure that Coinbase, for instance, provides me zero privacy protection.  To some that would constitute 'crooked'.  To me it is a calculated sacrifice which, thankfully, I can afford to make.

[alfabitcoin]

Again, what info bitstamp did not provided? Its all there on their site,address and bank account, read about us. Whois domain data is here irelevant and you or anybody can email domain admin for your concerns.( they enabled privacy around oct/2013.)( i even think that domain is still registered at their slovenia address what is different then current uk address) Domain privacy is totaly different matter then company information!
Blockchain is not a exchange. And what you would say about btce? They are totaly unknown.
Regarding bitstamp majority of user praise their service and how fast they are regarding withdraw. And i doubt taht they took funds from users who declined verification( before sept 30.)they were able to withdraw it eventually, just denied of using bitstamp again.

Someone loss of couple of btc are big, for some are not. One thing is a risk of btc price and totaly different then mtgox situation.

I can understand some country like usa who have different culture regarding privacy. Here in eu we must have id with us when we go out and can not do shit without our identification. That is a problem when btc meet fiat and different culture, mentality and regulation apply.
Nowdays we can forget about universal global perfect exchange. Usa users should choose their what is registered in the u.s. and eu should use bitstamp or btce if they want. Most important is to be informed, to read forums and to be aware of number of complaints and other things what is considered as get out. Situation has changed from 2011. and will continue to change.

[GTCG2]

Anyone still got his money back recently? Still waiting for a withdrawal done by the end of January. Should I presume the money is lost?

[tvbcof]

Again, what info bitstamp did not provided? Its all there on their site,address and bank account, read about us. Whois data is here irelevant and you or anybody can email domain admin for your concerns.( they enabled privacy around oct/2013.)( i even think that domain is still registered at their slovenia address what is different then current uk address)
Blockchain is not a exchange. And what you would say about btce? They are totaly unknown.
Regarding bitstamp majority of user praise their service and how fast they are regarding withdraw. And i doubt taht they took funds from users who declined verification( before sept 30.)they were able to withdraw it eventually, just denied of using bitstamp again.

I can understand some country like usa who have different culture regarding privacy. Here in eu we must have id with us when we go out and can not do shit without our identification. That is a problem when btc meet fiat and different culture, mentality and regulation apply.

I actually appreciate the cultural observations (no snark.)  It is confusing though that EU folk would not be even more paranoid about the loss of their documents than we here in the U.S.  (Although most Americans don't seem as bothered by this is me and a few others to be fair.)

As for btce, I've got even less desire to give my ID theft kit to a bunch of Russians operating out of Bulgaria and Cyprus than I do to a bunch of Solvanians shelling out from the U.K.  That's about as far as I've researched btce.

Coinbase didn't ask me for anything much to my surprise.  They are definitely hooked in to 'mainstream' sources of private info.  It sucks for others that they have a competitive advantage here, but that's the way the world works I guess.  I should be less nonchalant about being herded, but I'm not going to send my passport to a bunch of non-accountable Europeans out of protest.

As much as I favor full privacy for people giving value to others for safekeeping, I favor full transparency for those taking the the value.  If this were more common there would be a lot less fraud and theft in Bitcoinistan.  Note the difference between the two blocks of information below.  This is the first part of the research I do on any Bitcoin related business when trying to decide if they are trustworthy.

------

https://coinbase.com/about

Registrant Name: Coinbase, Inc.
Registrant Organization:
Registrant Street: 548 Market St #23008
Registrant City: San Francisco
Registrant State/Province: CA
Registrant Postal Code: 94104
Registrant Country: US

------

https://www.bitstamp.net/about_us/

Registrant Name: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0128129599
Registrant Organization: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0128129599
Registrant Street: 96 Mowat Ave
Registrant City: Toronto
Registrant State/Province: ON
Registrant Postal Code: M6K 3M1
Registrant Country: CA

------

[alfabitcoin]

Again, what info bitstamp did not provided? Its all there on their site,address and bank account, read about us. Whois data is here irelevant and you or anybody can email domain admin for your concerns.( they enabled privacy around oct/2013.)( i even think that domain is still registered at their slovenia address what is different then current uk address)
Blockchain is not a exchange. And what you would say about btce? They are totaly unknown.
Regarding bitstamp majority of user praise their service and how fast they are regarding withdraw. And i doubt taht they took funds from users who declined verification( before sept 30.)they were able to withdraw it eventually, just denied of using bitstamp again.

I can understand some country like usa who have different culture regarding privacy. Here in eu we must have id with us when we go out and can not do shit without our identification. That is a problem when btc meet fiat and different culture, mentality and regulation apply.

I actually appreciate the cultural observations (no snark.)  It is confusing though that EU folk would not be even more paranoid about the loss of their documents than we here in the U.S.  (Although most Americans don't seem as bothered by this is me and a few others to be fair.)

As for btce, I've got even less desire to give my ID theft kit to a bunch of Russians operating out of Bulgaria and Cyprus than I do to a bunch of Solvanians shelling out from the U.K.  That's about as far as I've researched btce.

Coinbase didn't ask me for anything much to my surprise.  They are definitely hooked in to 'mainstream' sources of private info.  It sucks for others that they have a competitive advantage here, but that's the way the world works I guess.  I should be less nonchalant about being herded, but I'm not going to send my passport to a bunch of non-accountable Europeans out of protest.

As much as I favor full privacy for people giving value to others for safekeeping, I favor full transparency for those taking the the value.  If this were more common there would be a lot less fraud and theft in Bitcoinistan.  Note the difference between the two blocks of information below.  This is the first part of the research I do on any Bitcoin related business when trying to decide if they are trustworthy.

------

https://coinbase.com/about

Registrant Name: Coinbase, Inc.
Registrant Organization:
Registrant Street: 548 Market St #23008
Registrant City: San Francisco
Registrant State/Province: CA
Registrant Postal Code: 94104
Registrant Country: US

------

https://www.bitstamp.net/about_us/

Registrant Name: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0128129599
Registrant Organization: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0128129599
Registrant Street: 96 Mowat Ave
Registrant City: Toronto
Registrant State/Province: ON
Registrant Postal Code: M6K 3M1
Registrant Country: CA

------

I dont understand why are you constantly providing disinformation or give misleading info as they have that data under their 'about us' page? Domain name registar is irrelevant. They have provided their address and company info, people have been visit them! Domain owner registar have nothing to do with a company, it could be that its registered to owner personal home address or old slovenian. I dont find it concerning, if you do, you are free to ask them why, maybe to explain to you what is a domain name and what is a company what has separate register regulated by laws.
And that is now finaly your only argument, really?

And you are mixing two different issues, ident theaft is one thing and mtgox situation another. I do not even relate those two situation!? Looks like you are trying to pursue your arguments however it suit you.
Like other poster said, you hammer honest exchange and spreaded in this short conversation a lot of false claims.
Have you ever been in eu, or know where is russia and where is bulgaria? Do you even know what european union is?
Why you assume to know how is here? I do not comment coinbase because i never used them nor i itend to. Why are you bashing bitstamp when you never used them its beyond me. And fist you claimed that they never announced the verification, then that is vouge facbook when its not, and then this privacy domain bs! What is next?
Link
https://www.bitstamp.net/about_us/   --->Give bitstamp company address, not what you have posted!

If you do not want to submit verification docs then dont, but do not provide false information and tag them as suspicious solely on unrelated and irellevant domain privacy registar info!

[tvbcof]

I dont understand why are you constantly providing disinformation or give misleading info as they have that data under their 'about us' page? Domain name registar is irrelevant. They have provided their address and company info, people have been visit them! Domain owner registar have nothing to do with a company, it could be that its registered to owner personal home address or old slovenian. I dont find it concerning, if you do, you are free to ask them whyband maybe to explain to you what is a domain name and what is a company what has separate register regulated by laws.

And you are mixing two different issues, ident theaft is one thing and mtgox situation another.
Like other poster said, you hammer honest exchange and spreaded in this short conversation a lot of false claims.

Link
https://www.bitstamp.net/about_us/

Give bitstamp company address, not what you have posted!

If you do not want to submit verification docs then dont, but do not provide false information and tag them as suspicious!

I didn't mean to indicate that the whois info came from the web sites.  I presented both 'about us' web pages for comparison.

There does not seem to be some sort of a hard and fast regulation that EU companies have to separate their domain registry from other parts of their business if that is what you are trying to indicate:

Registrant Name: Heinrich Wunram
Registrant Organization: Siemens AG
Registrant Street: Wittelsbacherplatz 2
Registrant City: Muenchen
Registrant State/Province: Bayern
Registrant Postal Code: 80333
Registrant Country: DE

Postal & Mail Contact
Siemens AG
Wittelsbacherplatz 2
80333 Munich
Germany

When a company is not trying to hide or obscure data, the above is about what I would expect.   When they are we typically see something more along the lines of what we see with Bitstamp.  Just sayin'.

I doubt that I am the only one in Bitcoinland who does some cursory checking of things like this, nor would I be surprised if Bitstamp lost some customers by not being a little more straight-up about their operations.

[alfabitcoin]

I dont understand why are you constantly providing disinformation or give misleading info as they have that data under their 'about us' page? Domain name registar is irrelevant. They have provided their address and company info, people have been visit them! Domain owner registar have nothing to do with a company, it could be that its registered to owner personal home address or old slovenian. I dont find it concerning, if you do, you are free to ask them whyband maybe to explain to you what is a domain name and what is a company what has separate register regulated by laws.

And you are mixing two different issues, ident theaft is one thing and mtgox situation another.
Like other poster said, you hammer honest exchange and spreaded in this short conversation a lot of false claims.

Link
https://www.bitstamp.net/about_us/

Give bitstamp company address, not what you have posted!

If you do not want to submit verification docs then dont, but do not provide false information and tag them as suspicious!

I didn't mean to indicate that the whois info came from the web sites.  I presented both 'about us' web pages for comparison.

There does not seem to be some sort of a hard and fast regulation that EU companies have to separate their domain registry from other parts of their business if that is what you are trying to indicate:

Registrant Name: Heinrich Wunram
Registrant Organization: Siemens AG
Registrant Street: Wittelsbacherplatz 2
Registrant City: Muenchen
Registrant State/Province: Bayern
Registrant Postal Code: 80333
Registrant Country: DE

Postal & Mail Contact
Siemens AG
Wittelsbacherplatz 2
80333 Munich
Germany

When a company is not trying to hide or obscure data, the above is about what I would expect.   When they are we typically see something more along the lines of what we see with Bitstamp.  Just sayin'.

I doubt that I am the only one in Bitcoinland who does some cursory checking of things like this, nor would I be surprised if Bitstamp lost some customers by not being a little more straight-up about their operations.

No, i do not find this concerning. Domain can be anybody. Info regarding their company is visible and on their site where it belong. They did not trie to hide it or obscure it! Its there, are you blind?
Iam sure bitstamp does not lose sleep over somebody who find it as a red flag. Accuse them when they really do something wrong and alarming, untill then, they are good. Again, if you do not want to be verified in order to trade on bitstamp its fine, go somewhere else, but dont tag them as dishonest or that they try to hide something.
If you are so worried then go ahead and email privacy protection and ask them to comment.
I do not see how relevant is of domain registar privacy? Important thing is that they are registered company what can be verified online and with reall office where people have visit them. Privacy protection can mean many things what is beyond your understanding.
Company siemens does not exchange bitcoin to fiat and its really irelevant example.
And again, there is no reason of bitstamp to hide domain registar unless is under bitstamp owner name or some other concerning thing what can be very easy to understund. I do not want to enter assumption game and to me bitstamp is great and honest exchange.
I have said all i had, enough is enough.

[Witness]

Who remembers hashlast, bfl, and mtjokes say, we want help the community.  Someone please please step right up to defending this good guys. 
So You want to help the community?

[McKinley]

Anyone still got his money back recently? Still waiting for a withdrawal done by the end of January. Should I presume the money is lost?

If mtgox was honest and the delays were due to the banks taking so long, the money would be on the way to you.
If mtgox was lying and they kept the money on purpose, the money is still at mtgox and by now seized.

[glon]

Anyone still got his money back recently? Still waiting for a withdrawal done by the end of January. Should I presume the money is lost?

If mtgox was honest and the delays were due to the banks taking so long, the money would be on the way to you.
If mtgox was lying and they kept the money on purpose, the money is still at mtgox and by now seized.

Banks themselves can never "take so long". It's plain and clear Gox was withholding SOME funds on purpose, even for SEPA transfers. The reason I say SOME, is this:

I had 2 SEPA withdrawals from Gox:

1) 960€ on 24Jan, never arrived
2) 270€ on 6Feb, arrived 22Feb

Now why in the fuck would they process the later withdrawal sooner than the earlier withdrawal??

[glon]

Anyone still got his money back recently? Still waiting for a withdrawal done by the end of January. Should I presume the money is lost?

If mtgox was honest and the delays were due to the banks taking so long, the money would be on the way to you.
If mtgox was lying and they kept the money on purpose, the money is still at mtgox and by now seized.

Banks themselves can never "take so long". It's plain and clear Gox was withholding SOME funds on purpose, even for SEPA transfers. The reason I say SOME, is this:

I had 2 SEPA withdrawals from Gox:

1) 960€ on 24Jan, never arrived
2) 270€ on 6Feb, arrived 22Feb

Now why in the fuck would they process the later withdrawal sooner than the earlier withdrawal??

OR you could read it as :

MtGox was not "withholding" any funds, and the bank processed the wires in the next open day as they always do for all of their customers with only ONE condition : that there were funds on the account first.

"960€ ? Sorry Mr K. we cannot do that because you account contains only 459€"
"270€ ? Yes that we can do. Now you only have 189€ left. Have a nice day"

Thing is Gox do not have a separate bank account for each one of their customers. So whatever per-customer withdrawal limit is set is not set by the bank, but artificially by Gox.

They could have send the 960 just as well as they did the 270, I'm sure their bank account would not be "depleted" (not correct word I know) by this single withdrawal. But they chose not to.

[InitialLetter]

Gox updated their website again. Announcements are now in pdf-format and there's new one with line:

"No forced execution or preliminary attachment or disposition shall be made by a rehabilitation creditor on the basis of a rehabilitation debt with regard to the properties of the rehabilitation debtor during the period until a decision shall be made with regard to the application for commencement of civil rehabilitation."

If I understood correctly, it says that no one is going to get anything before authorities make decision on rehabilitation.

[eztezt]

https://www.mtgox.com/

new changes

[glon]

Anyone still got his money back recently? Still waiting for a withdrawal done by the end of January. Should I presume the money is lost?

If mtgox was honest and the delays were due to the banks taking so long, the money would be on the way to you.
If mtgox was lying and they kept the money on purpose, the money is still at mtgox and by now seized.

Banks themselves can never "take so long". It's plain and clear Gox was withholding SOME funds on purpose, even for SEPA transfers. The reason I say SOME, is this:

I had 2 SEPA withdrawals from Gox:

1) 960€ on 24Jan, never arrived
2) 270€ on 6Feb, arrived 22Feb

Now why in the fuck would they process the later withdrawal sooner than the earlier withdrawal??

OR you could read it as :

MtGox was not "withholding" any funds, and the bank processed the wires in the next open day as they always do for all of their customers with only ONE condition : that there were funds on the account first.

"960€ ? Sorry Mr K. we cannot do that because you account contains only 459€"
"270€ ? Yes that we can do. Now you only have 189€ left. Have a nice day"

Thing is Gox do not have a separate bank account for each one of their customers. So whatever per-customer withdrawal limit is set is not set by the bank, but artificially by Gox.

They could have send the 960 just as well as they did the 270, I'm sure their bank account would not be "depleted" (not correct word I know) by this single withdrawal. But they chose not to.

I am not saying they had a separate bank account per customer.

I am saying that their whole corporate account did not have enough funds to send your 960€ at any time after the 24th of january but happened to have more than 270€ around the 20th of february.

Banks DO send wires in a matter of days. Whatever the amount. Always. That is their f*****g job.

They only ask ONE thing : that the the money exists on THEIR books before sending it out.

Evidences suggests MtGox funds have been depleted for months if not years.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Gox bank account had 270eur but didn't have 960eur at any one point in time?

[raskul]

Are you seriously suggesting that the Gox bank account had 270eur but didn't have 960eur at any one point in time?

More or less ...

They (mtgox) may have implemented a "queue system" on their side so that every day :
- they check the balance of the account (last day balance = 0 ; new balance = sum of incoming transfers of the day)
- they pick as many "waiting wires" from their queue system as they can, starting with the smaller and older ones, up to the point where they can no longer pay
- they send the money, the new balance is 0 again ...

"Sorry it's not our fault guys, the bank refuses to send more money than we have"

this... is exactly what happens when a company dives into insolvency, and yes, a perfectly feasible explanation.

[glon]

Are you seriously suggesting that the Gox bank account had 270eur but didn't have 960eur at any one point in time?

More or less ...

They (mtgox) may have implemented a "queue system" on their side so that every day :
- they check the balance of the account (last day balance = 0 ; new balance = sum of incoming transfers of the day)
- they pick as many "waiting wires" from their queue system as they can, starting with the smaller and older ones, up to the point where they can no longer pay
- they send the money, the new balance is 0 again ...

"Sorry it's not our fault guys, the bank refuses to send more money than we have"

this... is exactly what happens when a company dives into insolvency, and yes, a perfectly feasible explanation.

Yes it makes perfect sense. But if insolvency is really involved, then they've been insolvent for a long time now. I know people used to wait for some SEPA withdrawals for months on end, even in its heyday.

[raskul]

Yes it makes perfect sense. But if insolvency is really involved, then they've been insolvent for a long time now. I know people used to wait for some SEPA withdrawals for months on end, even in its heyday.

agreed, just check the OP date. And if Gox have been relying on deposit transactions to pay withdrawals, for an awful long time, is it criminal? Have they lied about their balances? or simply 'not offered correct information' whichever it is, it's going to be a long drawn process for anyone who had funds in there.

[papamoi]

there is some pdf in japanese on the site

can someone translate it as google translate is not helpful

thanks

[cozytrade]

So they are really trying to re-open the exchange, even though the schedule is unknown..