MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[cafminer1]

200K BTC are 25, not 20% of the total around 800K BTC to start with.

So that must be a joke. ;-P

[nicohigh]

It's a joke,

how can they " assume all of Mt. Gox’s liabilities and obligations.",

and say that the creditors willl get back a prorated amount ?

Paying the creditors is the first liabilitie isn't it ?

Then the exchange to obtain equity is quite a joke too, as you don't know the value of total equity, and so neither wich prorata you will get...

These guys may be even worst then Mark K. incompetency, they are vultures ...

[Goxxed]

http://www.coindesk.com/investor-group-offers-buy-mt-gox-one-bitcoin/

“Creditors will have two options. They can either receive a prorated amount from the 200,000 bitcoins recovered by Mt. Gox equal to roughly 20 percent of their claim, or obtain an equity stake of that amount in the revitalized Mt. Gox exchange. The investor group pledged to set aside 50% of transaction fees to pay back creditors over time.”

So, I either take a 80% haircut or I get own one share of stock instead of five. How is this any better than liquidation? Also, my rate of return is 50% of what's optimal.

The best way forward is if creditors get together to take over Gox to run a community exchange. The MtGox Recovery Initiative (http://www.mtgoxrecovery.com/) needs 50% of creditors to back this; we currently have about 40%. Please sign up if you haven't already.

[ilpirata79]

I believe them.
They just want to draw 1 (ONE) bitcoin from they pockets. They want to pay creditors with exchange incomes.

Best regards,
ilpirata79

[grifferz]

how can they " assume all of Mt. Gox’s liabilities and obligations.",

and say that the creditors willl get back a prorated amount ?

Paying the creditors is the first liabilitie isn't it ?

Possibly because they believe that the Japanese authorities won't consider bitcoins to be assets of MtGox at all, so won't appear on the balance sheet as a liability?

That has always seemed like a very likely outcome to me.

[cafminer1]

how can they " assume all of Mt. Gox’s liabilities and obligations.",

and say that the creditors willl get back a prorated amount ?

Paying the creditors is the first liabilitie isn't it ?

Possibly because they believe that the Japanese authorities won't consider bitcoins to be assets of MtGox at all, so won't appear on the balance sheet as a liability?

That has always seemed like a very likely outcome to me.

Not that. Re-read:

"Creditors will have two options. They can either receive a prorated amount from the 200,000 bitcoins recovered by Mt. Gox"

[grifferz]

Possibly because they believe that the Japanese authorities won't consider bitcoins to be assets of MtGox at all, so won't appear on the balance sheet as a liability?

That has always seemed like a very likely outcome to me.

Not that. Re-read:

"Creditors will have two options. They can either receive a prorated amount from the 200,000 bitcoins recovered by Mt. Gox"

What you are quoting in no way precludes what I was suggesting. Just because NewMtGox is willing to consider someone a creditor doesn't mean that the government does when/if they liquidate the OldMtGox. NewMtGox may not have a choice about fiat creditors, and may have to pay them back 100% first and as far as possible, but may have a choice about bitcoin creditors.

After all, exchanges exist right now in countries that do not consider bitcoins to be worth anything. That is an example of the service considering their users to be creditors even when the law doesn't.

Realistically any NewMtGox would have to make some effort to pay their previous customers back if they are to have any chance to succeed as a company.

Either way I don't think we have enough information to be sure. That is just the way I feel it is going to go (and with no credible takeover attempt appearing).

[MikeH]

yep, if they were to say they intend to pay back the full amount I would promote them - if not, I would bash them til they crash and burn.

[janos666]

http://www.coindesk.com/investor-group-offers-buy-mt-gox-one-bitcoin/

“Creditors will have two options. They can either receive a prorated amount from the 200,000 bitcoins recovered by Mt. Gox equal to roughly 20 percent of their claim, or obtain an equity stake of that amount in the revitalized Mt. Gox exchange. The investor group pledged to set aside 50% of transaction fees to pay back creditors over time.”

My theoretical reactions to these theoretical options (I don't believe any of this will actually happen):

Get ~20% back -> I would not choose this myself from these options but it's still infinitely better than nothing and I am sure some people would prefer this one (and even be happy about it).

obtain an equity stake of that amount -> Sounds better. But why not for the full amount? I would be a happy man if I got a share for the full amount of BTC I had there. But I don't like the 80% cut if I am willing to participate in a long term and high risk investment like this (the actual net return could prove to be significantly less than 20% and you can definitely wait years for that uncertain amount...).

set aside 50% of transaction fees -> 80-90% would sound a lot better. Why can't these people wait until their exchange is 100% debt-free before they start pulling out some profit?

[solex]

http://www.coindesk.com/investor-group-offers-buy-mt-gox-one-bitcoin/

“Creditors will have two options. They can either receive a prorated amount from the 200,000 bitcoins recovered by Mt. Gox equal to roughly 20 percent of their claim, or obtain an equity stake of that amount in the revitalized Mt. Gox exchange. The investor group pledged to set aside 50% of transaction fees to pay back creditors over time.”

Get ~20% back -> I would not choose this myself from these options but it's still infinitely better than nothing and I am sure some people would prefer this one (and even be happy about it).

obtain an equity stake of that amount -> Sounds better. But why not for the full amount? I would be a happy man if I got a share for the full amount of BTC I had there. But I don't like the 80% cut if I am willing to participate in a long term and high risk investment like this (the actual net return could prove to be significantly less than 20% and you definitely wait more time for that uncertain amount...).

set aside 50% of transaction fees -> 80-90% would sound a lot better. Why can't these people wait until their exchange is 100% dept-free before they start pulling out some profit?

The exchange is not re-started for free. There are loads of legal, office, administration, hardware, software, time costs which probably would eat up a chunk of any fiat or bitcoins recovered before a single exchange order can take place. It's not unreasonable for that to be recovered at the start instead of a long time later.

[janos666]

http://www.coindesk.com/investor-group-offers-buy-mt-gox-one-bitcoin/

“Creditors will have two options. They can either receive a prorated amount from the 200,000 bitcoins recovered by Mt. Gox equal to roughly 20 percent of their claim, or obtain an equity stake of that amount in the revitalized Mt. Gox exchange. The investor group pledged to set aside 50% of transaction fees to pay back creditors over time.”

Get ~20% back -> I would not choose this myself from these options but it's still infinitely better than nothing and I am sure some people would prefer this one (and even be happy about it).

obtain an equity stake of that amount -> Sounds better. But why not for the full amount? I would be a happy man if I got a share for the full amount of BTC I had there. But I don't like the 80% cut if I am willing to participate in a long term and high risk investment like this (the actual net return could prove to be significantly less than 20% and you definitely wait more time for that uncertain amount...).

set aside 50% of transaction fees -> 80-90% would sound a lot better. Why can't these people wait until their exchange is 100% dept-free before they start pulling out some profit?

The exchange is not re-started for free. There are loads of legal, office, administration, hardware, software, time costs which probably would eat up a chunk of any fiat or bitcoins recovered before a single exchange order can take place. It's not unreasonable for that to be recovered at the start instead of a long time later.

Yes, it can certainly look like a very reasonable thing from this point of view.
However, I don't think these are the kind of people who need to worry about how to pay their monthly phone bills.
They pay nothing for Karpeles and his Gay friend (other than that symbolic 1 BTC), so this reboot cost would be their only real investment into the new company. And I am sure that my share percentage in the company would be calculated against a significantly higher imaginary value than this reboot cost (it will probably be all the missing+remaining assets). So, it wouldn't be really fair even if they used my whole balance. But I would be still glad if they did. Not so happy if they count 20% only.
They need to please a lot of people in the early days if they want to succeed! They could start that here: offer a share for the full amount and dedicate 100% of the profits for paying debts first.
When everybody is happy and all debts are paid, they can still take profit. Or they can piss of everybody and never take any profit.

[joesmoe2012]

Still nothing new on the great goxster eh...?

[Nagle]

The proposed "buyout" is a lousy deal. Putting in a tough trustee, kicking Karpeles out, and aggressive investigation into where the money went is more promising. The creditors haven't had a look at the company's records yet, or the supervisor's investigation report.

Mt. Gox supposedly has identity info on everyone who received double payments due to "transaction malleability". So clawbacks should be possible. Maybe criminal prosecutions. 

Remember, if you have big bucks stuck in Mt. Gox and don't have a lawyer representing you in the Tokyo District Court, you don't get to affect the outcome.

[OhShei8e]

Remember, if you have big bucks stuck in Mt. Gox and don't have a lawyer representing you in the Tokyo District Court, you don't get to affect the outcome.

That's probably true, but what should we do? I live in Germany. The German law knows no class actions.

[igorr]

And Bistamp users coming soon together with MtGox

[janos666]

The proposed "buyout" is a lousy deal. Putting in a tough trustee, kicking Karpeles out, and aggressive investigation into where the money went is more promising. The creditors haven't had a look at the company's records yet, or the supervisor's investigation report.

Mt. Gox supposedly has identity info on everyone who received double payments due to "transaction malleability". So clawbacks should be possible. Maybe criminal prosecutions.  

Remember, if you have big bucks stuck in Mt. Gox and don't have a lawyer representing you in the Tokyo District Court, you don't get to affect the outcome.

I am not familiar with Japanese routines.
When do they usually release information to the public in cases like this?
Only after the case is completely closed (or well after) or as soon as possible?

[Nagle]

The proposed "buyout" is a lousy deal. Putting in a tough trustee, kicking Karpeles out, and aggressive investigation into where the money went is more promising. The creditors haven't had a look at the company's records yet, or the supervisor's investigation report.

Mt. Gox supposedly has identity info on everyone who received double payments due to "transaction malleability". So clawbacks should be possible. Maybe criminal prosecutions.  

Remember, if you have big bucks stuck in Mt. Gox and don't have a lawyer representing you in the Tokyo District Court, you don't get to affect the outcome.

I am not familiar with Japanese routines.
When do they usually release information to the public in cases like this?
Only after the case is completely closed (or well after) or as soon as possible?

The way it seems to work is that the only creditors who get information are those directly involved with the court. The guy behind "mtgoxrecovery.com" has a lawyer in Tokyo working the case. Does anybody else? If you're not represented in court, you don't get to know much or affect much.

The Japanese "civil rehabilitation" option is built on the assumption that the biggest creditor is a bank, able to manage bankrupt debtors. That doesn't really apply here.

[janos666]

I can't believe nobody tried to come up with a new Mt.Gox theory based on the infamous OpenSSL bug yet. May be people are forgetting about Gox already.

[vayvanne]

I tried, in 0.9.1 updates thread.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-11/nsa-said-to-have-used-heartbleed-bug-exposing-consumers.html

[raskul]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-bitcoin-mtgox-idUSBREA3F09U20140416