MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[JorgeStolfi]

after so many months why no response from Tokyo Police? what are the investigation results? why no updates on mtgox.com from Kobayashi?

Most likely, the police will not go public until they (a) identify the criminal, try to arrest him, and are ready to file charges; or (b) decide that they cannot solve the case, and archive it.

Think of how long it took for the FBI to come open on their investigation of Charlie Shrem and Ross Ulbricht. 

[OhShei8e]

If you like to participate. Letter to Bankruptcy trustee:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678457.msg9096145#msg9096145

[freedombit]

If you like to participate. Letter to Bankruptcy trustee:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678457.msg9096145#msg9096145

Thanks OhShei8e!

This is an important effort for the entire cryptocurrency community. Without knowing what happened at MtGox, and without doing our best to have MtGox depositors reimbursed, trust in exchanges and cryptocurrency will be mild at best. If we want cryptocurrency to become ubiquitous, we, the early adopters, must protect it.

Please do not pass judgement until the truth is known. There is no good reason why Japanese authorities and the administrator shouldn't release the "Last Known Bitcoin Addresses" that held MtGox deposits. Same with FIAT.

We are in uncharted waters. There is no law or enforcement authority that can handle this like we can as a community. Any help is welcomed!

[bitcoinvest]

I just visited http://www.bitcoins.com

and after the American Court has blocked the sale of this domain what i saw was that THEY SELL IT AGAIN!!!!

How can they do that? Who? Mark is doing this? or Kobayashi?

What is going on???

See for yourself!: http://www.bitcoins.com/index.html

BITCOINS.COM is for sale
Please contact us if you would like to purchase BITCOINS.COM.

This domain was created on Thu 30 Mar 2000 10:48:38 PM JST and can be bought from us. Alternatively you can register your own domain from KalyHost and get a server from FOREVER.net.*
Other domains for sale

    PEERDB.COM
    FAR-REALMS.COM
    CASHFLOW-CENTRAL.COM
    REDCRISTIANA.NET
    BITCOIN.HN
    PAPERBITCOINWALLET.COM
    KUMO.GD
    DBDYNAMICS.COM
    MGINC.COM
    WROTEIT.COM


Contact Details:
By postal mail
Tibanne Co.,Ltd.
11-5 Shibuya 2-Chome
150-0002 Shibuya Tokyo
Japan
P: 03-4520-6200
F: 03-4520-6299



* IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW: FOREVER.net belongs to Mark Karpeles... Read here :http://www.coindesk.com/mark-karpeles-avoids-bitcoin-launches-web-hosting-service/

EDIT: kalyhost.com : Powered by Tibanne Co. Ltd. - Copyright 2009-2014 - Legal

So along with the Sale of the Domain they also making marketing for new customers for Forever.net....

That means they took our BTC, we don't know what we are taking back or what is going on... and they do whatever they like.... They even taking more profit with every way they can... and we stay behind screens and just monitoring Perfect !

[macsga]

I just visited http://www.bitcoins.com

and after the American Court has blocked the sale of this domain what i saw was that THEY SELL IT AGAIN!!!!

How can they do that? Who? Mark is doing this? or Kobayashi?

What is going on???

See for yourself!: http://www.bitcoins.com/index.html

BITCOINS.COM is for sale
Please contact us if you would like to purchase BITCOINS.COM.

This domain was created on Thu 30 Mar 2000 10:48:38 PM JST and can be bought from us. Alternatively you can register your own domain from KalyHost and get a server from FOREVER.net.*
Other domains for sale

    PEERDB.COM
    FAR-REALMS.COM
    CASHFLOW-CENTRAL.COM
    REDCRISTIANA.NET
    BITCOIN.HN
    PAPERBITCOINWALLET.COM
    KUMO.GD
    DBDYNAMICS.COM
    MGINC.COM
    WROTEIT.COM


Contact Details:
By postal mail
Tibanne Co.,Ltd.
11-5 Shibuya 2-Chome
150-0002 Shibuya Tokyo
Japan
P: 03-4520-6200
F: 03-4520-6299



* IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW: FOREVER.net belongs to Mark Karpeles... Read here :http://www.coindesk.com/mark-karpeles-avoids-bitcoin-launches-web-hosting-service/

EDIT: kalyhost.com : Powered by Tibanne Co. Ltd. - Copyright 2009-2014 - Legal

So along with the Sale of the Domain they also making marketing for new customers for Forever.net....

That means they took our BTC, we don't know what we are taking back or what is going on... and they do whatever they like.... They even taking more profit with every way they can... and we stay behind screens and just monitoring Perfect !

First of, I think that it's not a bad thing for MK to sell this domain. As he stated back in July:

“We are hoping, with the sale of Bitcoins.com, to provide some relief to the people impacted by the Mt. Gox bankruptcy and will be putting at least half of the sale amount toward that purpose.”

(1)

The fact that lead the auction to a halt was nothing but CoinLab – which agreed to support Mt. Gox’s bankruptcy plan – moved to prevent the sale back then (2)

Now, there's always the chance Coinlab has risen their objections on the sale, maybe primarily due to the fact they saw from the auction course that there's a significant amount to be acquired, secondly, because their objection lead to nothing useful to the people who lost their assets from the Mt. Gox. I foresee that the 200K btc plus some extra cash will make a lot of people STFU and don't force their hands towards either Tibbane or MK.

Further reading:
1. http://www.coindesk.com/mark-karpeles-sell-bitcoins-com-domain-name/
2. http://www.coindesk.com/auction-bitcoins-com-domain-halted-us-court/

[bitcoinvest]

i totally disagree with you because since there is:

No police investigation results
No comments from Kobayashi about that


...and i have many more to tell you.

 Imagine what would happen if the court along with the police have found all the mising coins but the domain is sold....
Assets of the company would have gone away....

All the actions must take place AFTER final word of court and police investigation.



EDIT: the further reading link is part of the past... and we all know what happened....
What we need is news on what is happening NOW

[macsga]

i totally disagree with you because since there is:
[...]
EDIT: the further reading link is part of the past... and we all know what happened....
What we need is news on what is happening NOW

Pretty much nothing, the way I see it. And nobody's seems to be in hurry from the Japan investigator's part.

[bitcoinvest]

we all remember www.mtgoxprotest.com - Kolin Burges...

it's been days now when you visit the website:

Not Found

The requested URL / was not found on this server.

and months of silence...

someone here replied me once that he personaly knows Kolin.

Can we have a comment on that? Did Mark gave him his BTC and now left???



i have twitted to Kolin just now and wait for the answer


EDIT: i twitted Oct 12 to Kolin. After 3 days on Oct 15 Kolin twitted back this: Hi, it's a technical problem, it will be back up once it's sorted out.

You can see here. https://twitter.com/The_K_meister/status/507403603712016384

[joesmoe2012]

we all remember www.mtgoxprotest.com - Kolin Burges...

it's been days now when you visit the website:

Not Found

The requested URL / was not found on this server.

and months of silence...

someone here replied me once that he personaly knows Kolin.

Can we have a comment on that? Did Mark gave him his BTC and now left???



i have twitted to Kolin just now and wait for the answer

Also curious on this.

[bitcoinvest]

I have edited my previous message about www.mtgoxprotest.com and wanted also to inform about no reply also from savegox.com ......

of course same on mtgoxrecovery.com

I'm curious to see if any changes after recover of mtgoxprotest.com

Guys please wake up.... some people as we talk, sleep, walk or do anything else are having fun with our BTC!!!
Post what you know please!

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mtgox.com


After 8 Months still not accessible any date of February or any day of announcements in home page from Mark.

Is there a troll here.... i'm sorry i wanted to say a genius ....  here to tell us why?  because I have send i think 4 or 5 emails during those months to Internet Archive -----> Email: info at archive dot org - (Please note to enable email from @archive.org if you use any filtering devices!)


and not a single reply ....

[TheFootMan]

I have edited my previous message about www.mtgoxprotest.com and wanted also to inform about no reply also from savegox.com ......

of course same on mtgoxrecovery.com

I'm curious to see if any changes after recover of mtgoxprotest.com

Guys please wake up.... some people as we talk, sleep, walk or do anything else are having fun with our BTC!!!
Post what you know please!

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mtgox.com


After 8 Months still not accessible any date of February or any day of announcements in home page from Mark.

Is there a troll here.... i'm sorry i wanted to say a genius ....  here to tell us why?  because I have send i think 4 or 5 emails during those months to Internet Archive -----> Email: info at archive dot org - (Please note to enable email from @archive.org if you use any filtering devices!)


and not a single reply ....

From what I understand, the internet archive will remove anything when asked to do so, esp. if they think you're the siteadmin and wants them to remove cached versions of your site.

[ilpirata79]

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?

[bitcoinvest]

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?

do you have an answer ? because we all want answers and nobody gives a sh*it on us

[JorgeStolfi]

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?

They are still figuring out how many bitcoins and dollar there are; they have hired some TI consultants to analyze the database and other files.  Then they have to figure out what clients can claim. (It need not be the final account balance; my guess is that it will be some other formula.)  Then clients will have to send forms specifying their claims; this step has been postponed to the next year.  Then they will have to validate the claims.  Meanwhile, they may have to auction the bitcoins.

There is an investigation going on by the Japanese police about a certan amount of bitcoins that the liquidator thinks are missing.  It may not be all the 600'000; IIRC it was some particular 20'000 or so.  Do no expect any more details or information about that until the investigation is complete; that is normal in criminal investigations.

Then there is Sunlot, lobbying hard behind the scenes to stop the liquidation, call off the police investigation, and take possession of the 200'000 remaining bitcoins, "for the good of the clients".

I gather that there are some help sites and client groups, but it is not clear whether they are really trying to inform and help clients, or are trying to obfuscate and convince them to accept the plans of Sunlot or other sharks.  Beware.

You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

[DrApricot]

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?

I gather that there are some help sites and client groups, but it is not clear whether they are really trying to inform and help clients, or are trying to obfuscate and convince them to accept the plans of Sunlot or other sharks.  Beware.

I'm not sure why you believe liquidation is the only possible worthwhile outcome to the Mt Gox affair. There is nothing wrong with the concept of a negotiated out-of-court settlement of the bankruptcy. It could even result in an early release of most, if not all, of the depositors' bitcoins.
 
It seems that you are trying to warn people away from self help groups, and implying that anyone who joins one of these will fall into the clutches of Sunlot or their ilk. People will only stand so much frustration, and can't be blamed for trying to look out for what they see as their best interests. That's not the same thing as being used as a pawn in someone else's game--merely life.

You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

Jeffrey Robinson has a new Amazon Kindle book out entitled: The Naked Truth About Bitcoin
http://www.amazon.com/BitCon-Naked-Truth-About-Bitcoin-ebook/dp/B00NUIUQ3A/r
According to a recent review of the book:

Robinson's aim is to make a connection between Mt Gox collapsing and the abrupt end of China's bitcoin fever, the latter having driven the price up to $1240, until Beijing cracked down and the price crashed. Around the same time (coincidentally) Mt Gox collapsed; Robinson's terrier-like financial crime super-sense is on high alert. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bitcon-naked-truth-about-bitcoin-jeffrey-robinsons-teardown-worlds-biggest-cryptocurrency-1470477

If Jeffrey Robinson is correct about Chinese involvement in the Mt. Gox collapse, then depositors may have become pawns in a sub rosa diplomatic "blame game." That's only one more possible reason why they should be as assertive as possible in representing their own interests.

[ilpirata79]

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?

You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?

[JorgeStolfi]

It seems that you are trying to warn people away from self help groups, and implying that anyone who joins one of these will fall into the clutches of Sunlot or their ilk. People will only stand so much frustration, and can't be blamed for trying to look out for what they see as their best interests. That's not the same thing as being used as a pawn in someone else's game--merely life.

I am merely warning people to be wary.  Not everyone who claims to be your friend is really your friend.  Scammers, almost by defintion, are pretty good at convincing people that they are honest.  Bitcoiners should have learned that by now.

Out-of-court settlement will not make the missing bitcoins appear, so the former clients will not get more than 20% of their losses, in any case.  Judicial liquidation may take another year or more, but it WILL return most of the remaining assets to the clients.  The liquidation court has powers that a Sunlot-like takeover will not have, such as seizing the assets of former management and eventual accomplices, subpoena documents and bank histories, etc..  Moreover, it can be expected to do so.  In contrast, Sunlot has already "pardoned" McCaleb and Gay-Bouchery, and will let them keep what they got from MtGOX.  AFAIK, Sunlot never said what they will do about Mark. 

I could just say "heck, it is your money, if you want to give it to Sunlot, your problem."  Except that it is not in anyone's interest to let crooks who stole 500 million dollars walk away free and carrying all the loot with them.   The world will be even less safe than it is, if those bandits are not caught and sent to jail.  Unfortunately, to me, that will be the likely outcome of a Sunlot takeover.

[DrApricot]

It seems that you are trying to warn people away from self help groups, and implying that anyone who joins one of these will fall into the clutches of Sunlot or their ilk. People will only stand so much frustration, and can't be blamed for trying to look out for what they see as their best interests. That's not the same thing as being used as a pawn in someone else's game--merely life.

I am merely warning people to be wary.  Not everyone who claims to be your friend is really your friend.  

Fair enough, one should be careful, yet that doesn't mean remaining patient through an untenable situation. There is such a thing as the time value of money. Money in the short term is worth more than money promised at some future date. Many people would probably trade-off having the authorities prosecute every supposed Mt. Gox bad guy to the nth degree in exchange for having their bitcoins back in some near-term fashion.

Out-of-court settlement will not make the missing bitcoins appear, so the former clients will not get more than 20% of their losses, in any case.  

What evidence do you have that there were ever more than the 200,000 bitcoins found in the "old-format wallet"? Earlier in the year, these bitcoins were worth in excess of $100 million. That's a very large cash hoard for a 3 year old company run by a 28 year old. It stretches credulity to believe Mt. Gox actually controlled $500 million in bitcoins that have been claimed. Nobody has demonstrated that those coins totalling to the larger sum ever even existed. More than likely, it is just another wild claim.

Judicial liquidation may take another year or more, but it WILL return most of the remaining assets to the clients.  The liquidation court has powers that a Sunlot-like takeover will not have, such as seizing the assets of former management and eventual accomplices, subpoena documents and bank histories, etc..  Moreover, it can be expected to do so.  In contrast, Sunlot has already "pardoned" McCaleb and Gay-Bouchery, and will let them keep what they got from MtGOX.  AFAIK, Sunlot never said what they will do about Mark.  

I could just say "heck, it is your money, if you want to give it to Sunlot, your problem."  Except that it is not in anyone's interest to let crooks who stole 500 million dollars walk away free and carrying all the loot with them.   The world will be even less safe than it is, if those bandits are not caught and sent to jail.  Unfortunately, to me, that will be the likely outcome of a Sunlot takeover.

I don't see what the Sunlot takeover has to do with an out-or-court settlement. When depositors and creditors work out a settlement, it could return all of the depositors' bitcoins from the 200,000 BTC stash, and there would be no need to convert to Japanese Yen. This is something completely different than Sunlot. While representing a compromise of interests, it would be a good one--essentially a win-win for everyone. Proceeding with the liquidation seems more like "delay-delay" and "lose-lose". Out-of-court settlements when they can be obtained are generally far superior in outcome to proceeding on with a bankruptcy liquidation. It will require creditors and depositors to come to some kind of agreement based upon mutual interests.

[JorgeStolfi]

What evidence do you have that there were ever more than the 200,000 bitcoins found in the "old-format wallet"? Earlier in the year, these bitcoins were worth in excess of $100 million. That's a very large cash hoard for a 3 year old company run by a 28 year old. It stretches credulity to believe Mt. Gox actually controlled $500 million in bitcoins that has been claimed. Nobody has demonstrated that those coins totalling to the larger sum ever even existed. More than likely, it is just another wild claim.

The ~800'000 BTC figure is the sum of all BTC balances in client accounts.

If the exchange had been operating as it should, that number should be the sum of all BTC deposits by clients, minus all BTC withdrawals by clients and the fees withdrawn by Mark & co.  So those bitcoins would have to be "real".

If those bitcoins did not really exist, there must be inconsistencies in the records, like bitcoins being credited to client accounts without  corresponding BTC deposits, or BTC withdrawals without debiting the client account.  Mark claimed that the latter was the case: the "malelability bug" tricked his scripts into doing precisely that.  But people who understand the "bug" say that it could not have leaked more than a few hundred BTC.  And Mark has been silent after that first "explanation".  

I don't see what the Sunlot takeover has to do with an out-or-court settlement. When depositors and creditors work out a settlement, it could return all of the depositors' bitcoins from the 200,000 BTC stash, and there would be no need to convert to Japanese Yen. This is something completely different than Sunlot. While representing a compromise of interests, it would be a good one--essentially a win-win for everyone. Proceeding with the liquidation seems more like "delay-delay" and "lose-lose". Out-of-court settlements when they can be obtained are generally far superior in outcome to proceeding on with a bankruptcy liquidation. It will require creditors and depositors to come to some kind of agreement based upon mutual interests.

The first thing that a self-help group should do is to hire a lawer who knows Japanese bankruptcy law.  Without expert advice, the group will be just a version of this thread: clients will waste time discussing what they would like to happen (like "return the BTC as BTC") without regard for whether it is legally possible or not.

[DrApricot]

What evidence do you have that there were ever more than the 200,000 bitcoins found in the "old-format wallet"? Earlier in the year, these bitcoins were worth in excess of $100 million. That's a very large cash hoard for a 3 year old company run by a 28 year old. It stretches credulity to believe Mt. Gox actually controlled $500 million in bitcoins that has been claimed. Nobody has demonstrated that those coins totalling to the larger sum ever even existed. More than likely, it is just another wild claim.

The ~800'000 BTC figure is the sum of all BTC balances in client accounts.

I know about the leaked database, but it was incomplete and missing a lot of data. What backs up this 800,000 number? No depositors have been allowed to look at these books to be sure that this number is even in the ball park. The $500 million or 800,000 BTC sounds way out of line for an exchange like Mt. Gox. 200,000 BTC sounds a lot more realistic.

If the exchange had been operating as it should, that number should be the sum of all BTC deposits by clients, minus all BTC withdrawals by clients and the fees withdrawn by Mark & co.  So those bitcoins would have to be "real".

If those bitcoins did not really exist, there must be inconsistencies in the records, like bitcoins being credited to client accounts without  corresponding BTC deposits, or BTC withdrawals without debiting the client account.  Mark claimed that the latter was the case: the "malelability bug" tricked his scripts into doing precisely that.  But people who understand the "bug" say that it could not have leaked more than a few hundred BTC.  And Mark has been silent after that first "explanation".

Given their obvious exaggerations about losses from transaction malleability, all of the company's statements should be regarded as highly suspect, especially the one that it once held 850K bitcoins.

I don't see what the Sunlot takeover has to do with an out-or-court settlement. When depositors and creditors work out a settlement, it could return all of the depositors' bitcoins from the 200,000 BTC stash, and there would be no need to convert to Japanese Yen. This is something completely different than Sunlot. While representing a compromise of interests, it would be a good one--essentially a win-win for everyone. Proceeding with the liquidation seems more like "delay-delay" and "lose-lose". Out-of-court settlements when they can be obtained are generally far superior in outcome to proceeding on with a bankruptcy liquidation. It will require creditors and depositors to come to some kind of agreement based upon mutual interests.

The first thing that a self-help group should do is to hire a lawer who knows Japanese bankruptcy law.  Without expert advice, the group will be just a version of this thread: clients will waste time discussing what they would like to happen (like "return the BTC as BTC") without regard for whether it is legally possible or not.

Agreed, all in due time.