Bitcoin Forum
July 07, 2020, 01:11:46 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.20.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 [102] 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 ... 814 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2587112 times)
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3234
Merit: 1462



View Profile
April 21, 2012, 09:43:41 PM
 #2021


Might be worth running the calculation to see how much hashpower it would cost a large competitor (pool) to run a p2pool node and refrain from sending in blocks. It would need to do this only at a level that makes p2pools persistent "bad luck" slightly worse than paying fees at pools to be effective.

Back of envelope says 5-10% has gone missing somewhere, assuming it is not all bad luck, so say around 30 GHash/s? Would it be worth it to "them"?

Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1594084306
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1594084306

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1594084306
Reply with quote  #2

1594084306
Report to moderator
Ente
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001



View Profile
April 22, 2012, 06:16:05 AM
 #2022


Might be worth running the calculation to see how much hashpower it would cost a large competitor (pool) to run a p2pool node and refrain from sending in blocks. It would need to do this only at a level that makes p2pools persistent "bad luck" slightly worse than paying fees at pools to be effective.

Back of envelope says 5-10% has gone missing somewhere, assuming it is not all bad luck, so say around 30 GHash/s? Would it be worth it to "them"?

"Worth"? That assumes some gain by doing that. To drive away p2pool-users? It would be easier by a magnitude to use those 30Gh/s to "normally" mine for profit, and attack a regular centralized pool with DDOS. That would drive off their users to some degree, maybe attracting some of them for his own pool.

All data is there already anyway. We see which nodes exist, which nodes contribute how many shares (to add to the p2pool net hashpower) and which nodes do or do not find bitcoin blocks (to reduce the luck). If someone wants, he should be able to dig through the stats to verify/falsify this. Even if those 30Gh/s were on dozens of individual nodes, they probably come from the same IP. Even if not, with 30Gh/s you should be able to find anything, any clue.

You see, even with this "bad luck", people are sticking to p2pool, as can be seen in the stats. Not because p2pool is necessarily paying out better than all other pools at any time, but because p2pool is superior and healthier for the whole bitcoin universe.

But yes. I believe p2pool has a problem which may have stayed unidentified yet. The "hashing power reflected by hashes" and "hashing power reflected by blocks" are two fairly straight lines, but clearly diverging. Its not two overlapping lines, its not one line being crossed by the other all the time.
Connectivity seems to be one problem for the individual miner. Not for the global p2pool efficiency though.

Ente
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3234
Merit: 1462



View Profile
April 22, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
 #2023


No need to get all uppity, I'm just trying to eliminate some possibilities to get to the bottom of the pool's poor performance ... it may be bad luck but it is looking like more than that the longer it continues.

ChanceCoats123
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 682
Merit: 500



View Profile
April 22, 2012, 08:07:25 AM
 #2024

Not to mention people are staying with p2pool because they are lazy... (this guy). All jokes aside, it's easy to stay with the familiar. Smiley
kano
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3192
Merit: 1284


Linux since 1997 RedHat 4


View Profile
April 22, 2012, 10:58:03 AM
 #2025

...
You see, even with this "bad luck", people are sticking to p2pool, as can be seen in the stats. Not because p2pool is necessarily paying out better than all other pools at any time, but because p2pool is superior and healthier for the whole bitcoin universe.
...
Um - you wanna explain that one?
I'd like to see your opinion of how p2pool would cope with DeepBit's hash rate ...

Pool: https://kano.is - lowest fee PPLNS 3 Days Here on Bitcointalk: Forum
Discord support invite at https://kano.is/ Majority developer of the ckpool code
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
Syke
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3332
Merit: 1047


View Profile
April 22, 2012, 02:56:46 PM
 #2026

I'd like to see your opinion of how p2pool would cope with DeepBit's hash rate ...

Average daily payout would be the same. Time to find shares would go up, and blocks found per day would also go up.

A slow 1 gh/s miner on p2pool gets a share on average every 45 minutes while p2pool finds a block every 4 hrs. Deepbit is 10 times the size of p2pool, so the 1 gh/s miner would get a share every 7.5 hrs and p2pool would find a block every 24 minutes. Large scale p2pool miners can adjust their share-rate, which will make shares easier for slow miners.

Buy & Hold
rjk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250


1ngldh


View Profile
April 22, 2012, 11:43:23 PM
 #2027

I'd like to see your opinion of how p2pool would cope with DeepBit's hash rate ...

Average daily payout would be the same. Time to find shares would go up, and blocks found per day would also go up.

A slow 1 gh/s miner on p2pool gets a share on average every 45 minutes while p2pool finds a block every 4 hrs. Deepbit is 10 times the size of p2pool, so the 1 gh/s miner would get a share every 7.5 hrs and p2pool would find a block every 24 minutes. Large scale p2pool miners can adjust their share-rate, which will make shares easier for slow miners.
Sure, if p2pool could scale infinitely. But there are a few things that would have to be resolved before we could get that kind of scalability.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
forrestv
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 516
Merit: 514


View Profile
April 22, 2012, 11:54:06 PM
 #2028

Sure, if p2pool could scale infinitely. But there are a few things that would have to be resolved before we could get that kind of scalability.

Huh? P2Pool would continue to work if one DeepBit-equivalent of miners joined. Variance would just go up. P2Pool adjusts the share difficulty to keep traffic/CPU usage constant.

1J1zegkNSbwX4smvTdoHSanUfwvXFeuV23
rjk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250


1ngldh


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 12:01:03 AM
 #2029

Sure, if p2pool could scale infinitely. But there are a few things that would have to be resolved before we could get that kind of scalability.

Huh? P2Pool would continue to work if one DeepBit-equivalent of miners joined. Variance would just go up. P2Pool adjusts the share difficulty to keep traffic/CPU usage constant.
Right, I should clarify: yes p2pool itself should be able to handle it, but I doubt many miners would remain when the difficulty is so high that they may or may not get in a share in each block. It would have a negative feedback kind of effect, I would think.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
Syke
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3332
Merit: 1047


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 12:16:08 AM
 #2030

Right, I should clarify: yes p2pool itself should be able to handle it, but I doubt many miners would remain when the difficulty is so high that they may or may not get in a share in each block. It would have a negative feedback kind of effect, I would think.

Who cares if you get a share in every block? You'll still get roughly the same number of payouts each day, even at a deepbit-size level.

Now if p2pool was 10 times the size of deepbit, then the difficulty would be so high that lots of small miners would not get daily payouts. That would be a problem. I look forward to p2pool growing so large that becomes a problem.

Buy & Hold
ChanceCoats123
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 682
Merit: 500



View Profile
April 23, 2012, 01:31:51 AM
 #2031

But then you can have the larger (say 5ghash/sec +) miners use a > 300 share difficulty so the smaller miners can remain semi-profitable and use a lower difficulty. Since the larger miners have "lower" variance as-is, a slightly higher share difficulty will have little to no impact on their payouts, but greatly help the smaller guys.
TheHarbinger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378
Merit: 250


Why is it so damn hot in here?


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 02:00:52 AM
 #2032

Hopefully, auto-adjusting difficulty based on hashrate is something that will be coming in a future version.

12Um6jfDE7q6crm1s6tSksMvda8s1hZ3Vj
Ente
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001



View Profile
April 23, 2012, 10:30:55 AM
 #2033

Hopefully, auto-adjusting difficulty based on hashrate is something that will be coming in a future version.

That got me thinking.
Yes, this seems to be a good idea!
How to adjust the individual share difficulty?

- To have it similar to now (one share each 10 sec), each node would poll the number of nodes and the p2pool hashrate. If the individual hashrate is "high" compared to the average node's hashrate, make the local share-difficulty higher.
Quite complicated, maybe unstable, and all in all not too elegant, in my view..

- Drop the "one share every 10 sec" altogether. Make every node find one share, say, every 10 mins. Big miners will have a high local difficulty, small miners a low one. Depending on the amount of nodes, the sharechain would grow faster or slower than now. With those 10 mins per local share and approx 200 users at the moment, there would be a new share every 3 secs. This probably is too short, so we may make it "node, find a share every 30 mins!" for an approx sharechain-growth of one share every 10 secs.

This would not scale too far neither. But it would be a lot easier and with less drastic changes than the other, older proposals (sub-p2pool, multi-p2pool etc). So it might be a bridge-technology, as we say here.

Ente
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007


Gerald Davis


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 12:28:13 PM
 #2034

The issue with those proposals is that without an enforced minimum difficulty cheating to reduce variance becomes trivial.  You create a tragedy of the commons situation where users unhappy with their share variance simply "cheat" and submit lower variance shares.  The network "speeds up" and avg LP interval falls from 10sec to 7sec or 5 sec.

If anything 10 sec is too short.  It is right at the inflection point.  Intervals shorter than 10s will result in significantly higher oprhan rates.  5s won't be double the 10s rate it will be more like 4x (so ~40% global stale rate). It is absolutely critical that the LP interval remain >=10s.
VoluntaryMan
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 35
Merit: 0



View Profile
April 23, 2012, 12:37:35 PM
 #2035

My estimated payout has gone down by about 50% for the past few days... Anyone have any ideas as to why this may be?
My hashrate has stayed about the same 371Mhash/s.
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007


Gerald Davis


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 12:38:43 PM
 #2036

My estimated payout has gone down by about 50% for the past few days... Anyone have any ideas as to why this may be?
My hashrate has stayed about the same 371Mhash/s.
Take a look at avg block times for the last 5 blocks. Sad

If we find 50% of the block (compared to expected) your payout will be 50% of expected.
If we find 200% of the blocks (compared to expected) your payout will be 200% of expected.
VoluntaryMan
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 35
Merit: 0



View Profile
April 23, 2012, 01:42:36 PM
 #2037

My estimated payout has gone down by about 50% for the past few days... Anyone have any ideas as to why this may be?
My hashrate has stayed about the same 371Mhash/s.
Take a look at avg block times for the last 5 blocks. Sad

If we find 50% of the block (compared to expected) your payout will be 50% of expected.
If we find 200% of the blocks (compared to expected) your payout will be 200% of expected.
Ah, so just bad luck at the moment?
This is what I thought.
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007


Gerald Davis


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 02:26:01 PM
 #2038

My estimated payout has gone down by about 50% for the past few days... Anyone have any ideas as to why this may be?
My hashrate has stayed about the same 371Mhash/s.
Take a look at avg block times for the last 5 blocks. Sad

If we find 50% of the block (compared to expected) your payout will be 50% of expected.
If we find 200% of the blocks (compared to expected) your payout will be 200% of expected.
Ah, so just bad luck at the moment?
This is what I thought.

Yeah but a pretty brutally bad run of it.
hashalfahalve
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 100
Merit: 10

Support the bitcoin economy, use BTC merchants


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 07:11:24 PM
 #2039

Bam bam! 2 in a row, i'm rich!
iopq
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 672
Merit: 500


View Profile
April 23, 2012, 09:35:55 PM
 #2040

Bam bam! 2 in a row, i'm rich!
we just got 4 blocks in a small amount of time
Pages: « 1 ... 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 [102] 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 ... 814 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!