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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2574669 times)
rav3n_pl
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June 19, 2012, 05:27:26 PM
 #2801

I hope you all find this interesting: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed?

Let me know if I've made any egregious errors in how I've described how p2Pool works.
Nicely done, but there is NO explanation WHY it is 10% longer than it "should" Tongue

And I have absolutely no idea if it is even possible or how.
I have a idea, but unsure how to prove it.
In my case P2pool.info ALWAYS and sometimes even my local node shows more hash rate than I have on my miner.
Maybe it it all ok in pool itself, just numbers send/taken to analysis are screwd? By this magic 10% ?

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Aseras
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June 19, 2012, 05:52:40 PM
 #2802

I hope you all find this interesting: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed?

Let me know if I've made any egregious errors in how I've described how p2Pool works.
Nicely done, but there is NO explanation WHY it is 10% longer than it "should" Tongue

And I have absolutely no idea if it is even possible or how.
I have a idea, but unsure how to prove it.
In my case P2pool.info ALWAYS and sometimes even my local node shows more hash rate than I have on my miner.
Maybe it it all ok in pool itself, just numbers send/taken to analysis are screwd? By this magic 10% ?

hashrate by p2pool on your PC and on p2pool.info is a GUESS based on the shares submitted at that time. I've had it say I've got 40gh/s because I mined with 1500 diff shares and got 5-10 shares in quick succession.
rav3n_pl
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June 19, 2012, 07:59:44 PM
Last edit: June 19, 2012, 09:01:00 PM by rav3n_pl
 #2803

I hope you all find this interesting: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed?
Let me know if I've made any egregious errors in how I've described how p2Pool works.
Nicely done, but there is NO explanation WHY it is 10% longer than it "should" Tongue
And I have absolutely no idea if it is even possible or how.
I have a idea, but unsure how to prove it.
In my case P2pool.info ALWAYS and sometimes even my local node shows more hash rate than I have on my miner.
Maybe it it all ok in pool itself, just numbers send/taken to analysis are screwd? By this magic 10% ?
hashrate by p2pool on your PC and on p2pool.info is a GUESS based on the shares submitted at that time. I've had it say I've got 40gh/s because I mined with 1500 diff shares and got 5-10 shares in quick succession.
Maybe this "guessing" is the troublemaker. Some missed comma in code or something and all calculations can be trashed.
IE it is calculating that diff 600 share need 270MH (numbers form the roof) but in fact it need only 250. This way pool "guessing" that pool HR is higher than it really is, so time to solve block is shorter. But in fact it takes longer because real HR is lower.
In "normal" pools where SD=1 error margin is much lower (higher accuracy), we have SD~600 and rounding numbers up/down can make statistic troubles.

Edit:
From my week graph:
Local rate = 132MH/s
Local rate reflected in shares = 164MH/s
So pool "guessing" that I have 20% more hash power than I really have.
If everyone have +10% on stats then "bad luck" problem is only a statistic myth. If more ppl have over +10% ... then everyone should mine there Tongue

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Peterae
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June 20, 2012, 08:30:47 AM
 #2804

Thanks for your help guys, sorry to waste your time, i had the wrong password in Guiminer i am not sure how it happened as it was working before i upgraded, it all seemed to work with the wrong one, i could not see any errors, but the difference i can see is that on guiminer i now am showing a number outside brackets, so i am now getting 98 (50) where as before with the wrong password i was only ever getting an incrementing number inside the brackets with the outside number 0
ie 0 (50)

Thanks
Peter
Just need to get a high watt psu and i can plug the new high speed card in.
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June 20, 2012, 08:59:35 AM
 #2805

p2pool does not have a password

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Peterae
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June 20, 2012, 09:30:21 AM
 #2806

Guiminer had the wrong password for the encrypted wallet.
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June 20, 2012, 09:36:53 AM
 #2807

Ooh why does it watch your wallet?

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Peterae
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June 20, 2012, 10:11:55 AM
 #2808

I'm the noob here  Grin you tell me, i am just saying i found out why it was not working, without the correct password in Guiminer it was not allowing bitcoin to work with Guiminer and i was not getting credited for P2pool.
With my wallet password in Guiminer password field it works.
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June 20, 2012, 10:21:46 AM
 #2809

lol never used guiminer

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Ente
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June 20, 2012, 10:26:45 AM
 #2810

I hope you all find this interesting: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed?
Let me know if I've made any egregious errors in how I've described how p2Pool works.
Nicely done, but there is NO explanation WHY it is 10% longer than it "should" Tongue
And I have absolutely no idea if it is even possible or how.
I have a idea, but unsure how to prove it.
In my case P2pool.info ALWAYS and sometimes even my local node shows more hash rate than I have on my miner.
Maybe it it all ok in pool itself, just numbers send/taken to analysis are screwd? By this magic 10% ?
hashrate by p2pool on your PC and on p2pool.info is a GUESS based on the shares submitted at that time. I've had it say I've got 40gh/s because I mined with 1500 diff shares and got 5-10 shares in quick succession.
Maybe this "guessing" is the troublemaker. Some missed comma in code or something and all calculations can be trashed.
IE it is calculating that diff 600 share need 270MH (numbers form the roof) but in fact it need only 250. This way pool "guessing" that pool HR is higher than it really is, so time to solve block is shorter. But in fact it takes longer because real HR is lower.
In "normal" pools where SD=1 error margin is much lower (higher accuracy), we have SD~600 and rounding numbers up/down can make statistic troubles.

Edit:
From my week graph:
Local rate = 132MH/s
Local rate reflected in shares = 164MH/s
So pool "guessing" that I have 20% more hash power than I really have.
If everyone have +10% on stats then "bad luck" problem is only a statistic myth. If more ppl have over +10% ... then everyone should mine there Tongue

Theoretically, possible.
But at the end of the day, miners don't care about numbers, rates, stats and graphs. They simply look into their wallet and compare the daily income to other pools and to mining calculators. It is there where 10% are missing (it seems).

Ente
organofcorti
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June 20, 2012, 10:29:47 AM
 #2811


Theoretically, possible.
But at the end of the day, miners don't care about numbers, rates, stats and graphs. They simply look into their wallet and compare the daily income to other pools and to mining calculators. It is there where 10% are missing (it seems).

Ente

That's why I'd like some long term p2Pool miners to post their personal stats somewhere. Does p2Pool record your average round hashrate from which your earnings come, along with the earnings?

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
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Ente
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June 20, 2012, 10:33:31 AM
 #2812

I'm the noob here  Grin you tell me, i am just saying i found out why it was not working, without the correct password in Guiminer it was not allowing bitcoin to work with Guiminer and i was not getting credited for P2pool.
With my wallet password in Guiminer password field it works.

Maybe your wallet password is the same as your bitcoind connect password written in the conf?
If so, change your pasword! Too easy to steal your bitcoin in that setup.

Miner don't need any connection to any wallet.
Guiminer has only one spot for a password, which is for connecting to bitcoind/p2pool/pool. p2pool doesn't need and have a connection password, though?

Ente
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June 20, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
 #2813

Quote
Guiminer has only one spot for a password, which is for connecting to bitcoind/p2pool/pool.
yes and i had the wrong password in the password field in guiminer.

this stopped me mining via P2Pool.My stats stopped on P2Pool it looked like i was mining but i was not getting credits arriving in my wallet, now i have changed it to the correct wallet password i am now seeing stats and credits in my wallet.
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June 20, 2012, 12:39:24 PM
 #2814

Quote
Guiminer has only one spot for a password, which is for connecting to bitcoind/p2pool/pool.
yes and i had the wrong password in the password field in guiminer.

this stopped me mining via P2Pool.My stats stopped on P2Pool it looked like i was mining but i was not getting credits arriving in my wallet, now i have changed it to the correct wallet password i am now seeing stats and credits in my wallet.

Thats what I am talking about. I am pretty sure you used that password for your wallet and which you put into Guiminer for more than just your wallet. Are you sure you only use it for your wallet?

I hope you all find this interesting: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed?

Let me know if I've made any egregious errors in how I've described how p2Pool works.

Great work!
Nice to see a guy calculate through this who actually knows what he is doing! :-)
I will send you my p2pool mining data. Only a few datapoints per day, but maybe it helps. Would raw logfiles from p2pool help you?

Ente
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June 20, 2012, 01:08:24 PM
 #2815

I hope you all find this interesting: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed?

Let me know if I've made any egregious errors in how I've described how p2Pool works.

Great work!
Nice to see a guy calculate through this who actually knows what he is doing! :-)
Well, maybe I know what I'm doing. Meni Rosenfeld brought up some very good points about my conclusions here and I'm starting to think he's right. Without a plausible mechanism to explain what's going on, it's probably bad luck or a problem with reporting rather than a loss of earnings. That's what I want the data for, to see if earnings are as expected even if the round length reporting implies that it's not.

I will send you my p2pool mining data. Only a few datapoints per day, but maybe it helps. Would raw logfiles from p2pool help you?
Ente

That would be a huge help. Even if there's only a few data points per day, if its for long period of time that would be helpful. Can you get your average hashrate and payout for a particular block?

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
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June 20, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
 #2816

Quote from: organofcorti
Well, maybe I know what I'm doing. Meni Rosenfeld brought up some very good points about my conclusions here and I'm starting to think he's right. Without a plausible mechanism to explain what's going on, it's probably bad luck or a problem with reporting rather than a loss of earnings. That's what I want the data for, to see if earnings are as expected even if the round length reporting implies that it's not.


except in the real world it doesn't match up either. I split my rigs half p2pool and half pps for several months. p2pool was less than half of the earnings of the PPS. Now granted I mined on >100% pps pools. but still, it wasn't even close. pps easily was 2-3 times earnings of p2pool. the only time p2pool even came close was on a good day with 4-5 blocks, it matched the average pps.
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June 20, 2012, 02:42:35 PM
 #2817

Quote from: organofcorti
Well, maybe I know what I'm doing. Meni Rosenfeld brought up some very good points about my conclusions here and I'm starting to think he's right. Without a plausible mechanism to explain what's going on, it's probably bad luck or a problem with reporting rather than a loss of earnings. That's what I want the data for, to see if earnings are as expected even if the round length reporting implies that it's not.


except in the real world it doesn't match up either. I split my rigs half p2pool and half pps for several months. p2pool was less than half of the earnings of the PPS. Now granted I mined on >100% pps pools. but still, it wasn't even close. pps easily was 2-3 times earnings of p2pool. the only time p2pool even came close was on a good day with 4-5 blocks, it matched the average pps.

Now I'm even more keen to get data. Pastebin me a bunch of goodies, people!

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
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Aseras
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June 20, 2012, 02:49:14 PM
 #2818

here's a quick example

p2pool

http://blockchain.info/address/148EuEq79DQtpVU9rZwqxNFeDG3jq4E16v

pps

http://blockchain.info/address/1M79Fm5fF8eQXMMLg8AW5WohaF9vfwSvF3

both are exact same cluster ~10gh

nothing has changed the entire time outside of occasional downtime for each.

look at earnings per day.
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June 20, 2012, 02:51:23 PM
 #2819

here's a quick example

p2pool

http://blockchain.info/address/148EuEq79DQtpVU9rZwqxNFeDG3jq4E16v

pps

http://blockchain.info/address/1M79Fm5fF8eQXMMLg8AW5WohaF9vfwSvF3

both are exact same cluster ~10gh

nothing has changed the entire time outside of occasional downtime for each.

look at earnings per day.

What PPS pool is that Shocked
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June 20, 2012, 03:04:36 PM
 #2820

The PPS shows a lot of variance in daily payouts - why is that? But the p2Pool earnings are really low. Do you have any local data you can post for me? Your expected earnings based on a difficulty of 1600000 are

Code:
10*10^9/2^32*24*3600*50/1.6e06 = 6.286 coins per day.

The p2Pool earnings are much less than that - around 18% expected daily earnings. Your PPS earnings are also a little on the low side, too, about 74% expected. Is there a lot of downtime? any reported problems on the p2Pool cluster?

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
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