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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2032729 times)
cabin
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April 28, 2012, 12:03:29 PM
 #2121

is it possible to show what version of p2pool the node is running, or is that not available?

also... woohoo! lowest ping time on your list! Cheesy

138ms! Cheesy

-- Smoov

I'm starting to think those are ping times from the client to the p2pool nodes, not the node to the other nodes. Loading the page from the miner would be most accurate.

Yes, it is always the ping from your current computer to the node. Everyone will get different numbers and if your node is on your machine or on the same network your ping will be very low. In effect it shows you the node that will be best for you and you alone to connect to.

The version number isn't in the data below so I don't display it.
http://p2pool.hopto.org:9332/local_stats

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cabin
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April 28, 2012, 12:15:48 PM
 #2122

Meh - I somehow managed to post this in the BFL thread when I mean to post it here ...
OK fixing that, here it is here where it should be.

... and now I'll ask an evil question coz I'm curious about it ...

I added the code that did network block detection in cgminer.
It reports "BLOCK!" on BOTH Accepted and Rejected shares.
I've wondered in the past if anyone has ever had a Rejected "BLOCK!"
i.e. you found a block, but you were JUST unlucky enough to find it in the time frame where it would be Rejected
( of course people have, but they'd need to keep their logs and check them ... I do keep all my logs and sometimes check them Cheesy )

They should be rare but also easy to calculate how often you should get them ...
The Rejection rate of your shares is a percentage.
That Rejection rate is also the % of blocks you find that should also be a Rejected "BLOCK!"


... now for a code change suggestion ...

So if you get 10% of your shares rejected then 10% of the blocks you find should also be rejected ....................
However ........... of that 10% that get rejected, 98.3% of them would be accepted by the bitcoin block chain but are invalid for the share chain and are thus thrown away .............

(I also wonder if this is a factor in the luck discussion - but I've no idea if it is)

Yeah I think there should be an exception in the code to allow rejected shares, that match this circumstance, and enable support for the exception in the share chain
i.e. if you get a Rejected BLOCK! it should make it all the way to the bitcoind and then it's up to bitcoind to reject it if it was a real block chain LP (not a P2Pool share chain LP)
Of course if this was implemented: it would also mean that everyone mining with cgminer on P2Pool should enable submit stale
(and also P2Pool should tell all miners to submit stale shares)

If a share is DOA or orphan it will still count as a real block. If you look at the source in main.got_response(header, request) the first thing it does is check if it is a real block. Only after that does it bother to check for DOA. CGminer will submit dead shares if you use --submit_stale, or if you are running a fairly recent version it will do this automatically. If you are using an old version of cgminer, and not using --submit_stale, then you could discard a valid block before it even reaches P2Pool.

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kano
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April 28, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
 #2123

...
If a share is DOA or orphan it will still count as a real block. If you look at the source in main.got_response(header, request) the first thing it does is check if it is a real block. Only after that does it bother to check for DOA. CGminer will submit dead shares if you use --submit_stale, or if you are running a fairly recent version it will do this automatically. If you are using an old version of cgminer, and not using --submit_stale, then you could discard a valid block before it even reaches P2Pool.
So, you can confirm that a 10 second share that is effectively late (stale/rejected) will still make it all the way to bitcoind if it is a valid block?
So P2Pool already has this 2 way path?
A share that isn't valid for the share chain will still pay out to everyone and go to bitcoind if it is a block?
(or the share chain can also store invalid shares?)

If forrestv will confirm this - then that's good.

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April 28, 2012, 03:13:00 PM
 #2124

...
If a share is DOA or orphan it will still count as a real block. If you look at the source in main.got_response(header, request) the first thing it does is check if it is a real block. Only after that does it bother to check for DOA. CGminer will submit dead shares if you use --submit_stale, or if you are running a fairly recent version it will do this automatically. If you are using an old version of cgminer, and not using --submit_stale, then you could discard a valid block before it even reaches P2Pool.
So, you can confirm that a 10 second share that is effectively late (stale/rejected) will still make it all the way to bitcoind if it is a valid block?
So P2Pool already has this 2 way path?
A share that isn't valid for the share chain will still pay out to everyone and go to bitcoind if it is a block?
(or the share chain can also store invalid shares?)

If forrestv will confirm this - then that's good.


Here is the explaination forrest has given in IRC in the past...  If a share is stale/doa but still meets the current bitcoin difficulty requirements (aka it is a block), it is sent to the local p2pool node's bitcoind.  It is also sent to all of the node's peers.  Each of the peers also send the block to their own local bitcoind instances (in order to increase the speed of propagation through the bitcoin network).  However, each of the peers does not relay the stale share to any of their peers.

So it propagates partially through the p2pool p2p network and should be sent to at least 11 bitcoin nodes (1 bitcoin node from the finder of the block and the bitcoin nodes of the block finder's 10 outgoing p2pool connections).  If the block finder has any incoming p2pool connections, it will go to those p2pool peers as well.

A side effect of the fact that the stale share is not fully propagated through the p2pool network is that stale share/valid blocks are sometimes not announced on IRC because the IRC bots sometimes never hear about the stale share (because they are not a direct peer of the block finder).  We have seen this side effect several times (p2pool blocks have been found and not announced in IRC by any of the half dozen or so p2pool nodes that are connected to IRC and announcing blocks).


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Smoovious
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April 28, 2012, 08:14:33 PM
 #2125

is it possible to show what version of p2pool the node is running, or is that not available?

also... woohoo! lowest ping time on your list! Cheesy

138ms! Cheesy

-- Smoov

I'm starting to think those are ping times from the client to the p2pool nodes, not the node to the other nodes. Loading the page from the miner would be most accurate.

Yes, it is always the ping from your current computer to the node. Everyone will get different numbers and if your node is on your machine or on the same network your ping will be very low. In effect it shows you the node that will be best for you and you alone to connect to.

The version number isn't in the data below so I don't display it.
http://p2pool.hopto.org:9332/local_stats
well, I thought the page was showing the ping times from his location since it was his page I was looking at.

Oh well.

If it is possible to lift the version # of the p2pools in the list, might be good to have it there, if you wanna pick a pool that is current.

-- Smoov
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April 29, 2012, 02:16:52 AM
 #2126

...
Here is the explaination forrest has given in IRC in the past...  If a share is stale/doa but still meets the current bitcoin difficulty requirements (aka it is a block), it is sent to the local p2pool node's bitcoind.  It is also sent to all of the node's peers.  Each of the peers also send the block to their own local bitcoind instances (in order to increase the speed of propagation through the bitcoin network).  However, each of the peers does not relay the stale share to any of their peers.

So it propagates partially through the p2pool p2p network and should be sent to at least 11 bitcoin nodes (1 bitcoin node from the finder of the block and the bitcoin nodes of the block finder's 10 outgoing p2pool connections).  If the block finder has any incoming p2pool connections, it will go to those p2pool peers as well.

A side effect of the fact that the stale share is not fully propagated through the p2pool network is that stale share/valid blocks are sometimes not announced on IRC because the IRC bots sometimes never hear about the stale share (because they are not a direct peer of the block finder).  We have seen this side effect several times (p2pool blocks have been found and not announced in IRC by any of the half dozen or so p2pool nodes that are connected to IRC and announcing blocks).

So the fact that such a block doesn't make it to the share chain for most P2Poolers doesn't skew the statistics in any way?
... again in relations to the low stats people have been discussing ...

There's no difficulty looking through the block chain to find all the recent P2Pool shares,
(not sure about identifying blocks early on when P2Pool first started of course)
but does P2Pool itself record blocks that didn't get into the share chain - that it isn't notified of via the share chain?
(I've no idea - that's why I ask)

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April 29, 2012, 03:02:05 AM
 #2127

So the fact that such a block doesn't make it to the share chain for most P2Poolers doesn't skew the statistics in any way?
... again in relations to the low stats people have been discussing ...

It likely does just as if the pool is unaware of a orphaned share (which isn't a block) but the effect would be negligible.  

Even at avg diff of 800 only one in 700 shares is a block solution so the amount that not knowing about that share can affect stats is <1%.

If a node is unaware of any orphaned share it will affect things like luck calculations (but not payouts).

A block whose share is stale is no different than any other orphaned or DOA share with the exception that it is very rare.

Quote
There's no difficulty looking through the block chain to find all the recent P2Pool shares,
(not sure about identifying blocks early on when P2Pool first started of course)
but does P2Pool itself record blocks that didn't get into the share chain - that it isn't notified of via the share chain?
(I've no idea - that's why I ask)

p2pool doesn't need to know that it found a block because that doesn't affect
a) its work
b) its estimate on hashrate
c) reward split

sites like p2pool.info keep track of found blocks because miners like to know when to expect the next payment.  If your node was never notified on any p2pool block via the p2pool network it could still operate just fine (it will always be notified by bitcoind just like it is on any other found block).

Still I would think found blocks who's shares are oprhaned/DOA sould be replicated to every single p2pool node.  Getting the block broadcast from as many nodes as possible can only help block orphan rates.  Right?

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April 30, 2012, 12:12:49 AM
 #2128

What is going on?  It seems very strange that we don't solve a block all day and then solve three blocks in a row!?

Hello There!
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April 30, 2012, 12:14:13 AM
 #2129

To take a break from the serious conversations going on in this thread right now...


I just want you to know, I'm the one who found the block that broke the 23h 49m without a block drought.  No thanks necessary. But tips are, pay me bitches!  Grin

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April 30, 2012, 12:15:02 AM
 #2130

What is going on?  It seems very strange that we don't solve a block all day and then solve three blocks in a row!?

Variance.  It explains all.

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ChanceCoats123
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April 30, 2012, 01:12:34 AM
 #2131

To take a break from the serious conversations going on in this thread right now...


I just want you to know, I'm the one who found the block that broke the 23h 49m without a block drought.  No thanks necessary. But tips are, pay me bitches!  Grin

Lololol
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April 30, 2012, 02:20:04 AM
 #2132

To take a break from the serious conversations going on in this thread right now...


I just want you to know, I'm the one who found the block that broke the 23h 49m without a block drought.  No thanks necessary. But tips are, pay me bitches!  Grin
P2Pool gave you a tip for finding it Smiley
Not sure why more pools don't do that ... Sad

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April 30, 2012, 04:10:15 AM
 #2133

I posted a pseudo-spec on what would be required to mine on P2Pool with BFL hardware, thought this was relevant.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78540

Thanks !

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May 01, 2012, 12:00:21 AM
 #2134

Its nice to see luck increasing a little.
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May 01, 2012, 01:22:33 AM
 #2135

Its nice to see luck increasing a little.

No, ah!  Shouldn't have said anything. 

Heh, just kidding.  Luck does seem to be getting a bit better, plus I just found a block (178015) which always makes me feel lucky =)  I think that is four blocks ever found for me, unless I missed one somewhere. 
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May 02, 2012, 02:00:41 AM
 #2136

Its nice to see luck increasing a little.
No, ah!  Shouldn't have said anything. 

Ah shit oops.
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May 02, 2012, 02:27:15 AM
 #2137

So I checked my namecoin balance recently (something I tend to forget to do)  and noticed some coins.  So I dug through the log file and came up with this:


$grep submittal ~/p2pool/data/bitcoin/log
2012-04-27 16:34:07.646242 > Merged block submittal result: False Expected: True
2012-04-29 09:16:43.527938 Merged block submittal result: True
2012-04-30 20:00:57.030804 Merged block submittal result: True

Is that first one a namecoin block that was orphaned or invalid somehow? I'm guessing its not orphan, since as I understand it you wouldn't know about that right at submittal.  I have only ever found a few namecoin blocks so I'm not sure what the log usually looks like.  Just curious really, anyone know?
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May 02, 2012, 02:35:27 AM
 #2138

Its nice to see luck increasing a little.

Oh god, all is lost! I ruined it last time and now it's happened again... New P2pool thread rule: NO TALKING ABOUT THE LUCK!
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May 02, 2012, 12:42:37 PM
 #2139

Its nice to see luck increasing a little.

Oh god, all is lost! I ruined it last time and now it's happened again... New P2pool thread rule: NO TALKING ABOUT THE LUCK!

yeah this morning it was terrible. 5m blocks. just plain suck. lol
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May 02, 2012, 02:46:17 PM
 #2140

There have been on and off discussions of if the p2pool.info luck calculations are somehow wrong (i.e. too low) because of some error in the estimated hashrate, etc.

I did an experiment with independent data to see how it compared and here are the results.

Instead of looking at anything from p2pool, I looked at my payments over the past 30 days.  My personal p2pool hashrate has been unchanged during the past 30 days and I have a detailed record of every share I have found, so I am certain what my hashrate was during that duration.  Note, I did happen to be the block finder for one of our blocks in the past 30 days, and so I did even receive a bonus payment to counter balance all the other blocks where I didn't receive the bonus payment, so that effect is mostly washed out.

Taking the difficulty changes into account, I calculated what my expected payment should have been over the past 30 days given my hashrate.  I compared that with what I was actually paid.  Over the past 30 days, I received 78% of amount that I was expected to have received given my hashrate.  The luck calculation from p2pool.info (which is based on average pool hashrate and blocks found) calculates that the past 30 day luck is 77%.

77% global luck vs 78% personal luck.

That makes me pretty comfortable that the p2pool.info luck calculation approach is not fundamentally broken and off by 10% or something. 

If anyone else sees a different pattern in their own personal payouts, that would be interesting.

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