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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2591571 times)
gyverlb
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June 22, 2014, 03:57:51 PM
 #9221

Hey guys, i have a technical question concerning p2pool.

While shares can quite easily be DOA because of the ~60times faster sharechain, found bitcoin blocks shouldn´t become dead/orphaned that quickly, as they are then broadcast on to the Bitcoin network.

So what happens, when my found share would be a Bitcoin block but the p2pool node considers it a "late" share? Is it still passed on to the Bitcoin network?



Yes, but it won't show up in the p2pool block list, either.... and you won't get the .5% bonus for it, just the "normal" amount earned.

I don't see how such a block wouldn't pay the .5% bonus. The blocktemplate must always include it from the start to make a valid block, it can't be added afterwards or the block wouldn't be valid.

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Collider
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June 22, 2014, 05:26:22 PM
 #9222

How does the peering system work and what do incoming and outgoing peers do?

Are the outgoing peers downloading the sharechain from you because they haven´t got the complete list?

What happens when your node has no ingoing peers?


Does your peernetwork automatically grow with your nodes´online time?

I read somewhere that you can also "force" your node to peer with a certain other node, is there a benefit in that?

Does a bigger peer network mean less orphaned shares? (as the found share should be distributed faster around the p2pool network)

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June 22, 2014, 05:31:21 PM
 #9223

...
I have built and managed large development teams in the past for specialized projects, and I have to say that none of them came close to the complexity and challenges offered by what we need in a p2pool dev team.
...
P2pool is not a massive difficult project ... forrestv is able to do it himself.

So I guess your comment above means you've only worked in small time projects Tongue

Hi Kano, nice to meet you???

Many applications start out as the brain child of a single dev (Bitcoin, Linux, Facebook, DOS, etc, etc...), but working alone inside a vacuum on a project that has already proved successful, like p2pool, can be detrimental to its overall success.

I'm hugely grateful for the substantial contribution of p2pool to the Bitcoin community by Forrest, it's a great accomplishment and I believe it can lead the mining world into a decentralized trust less future. But we need to fix the problems Forrest points out in his post first.

......
I have since been brainstorming and prototyping ways to fix the core problems with P2Pool - scalability and excessive variance for small miners. I prototyped a way to do trustless verification of blocks with O(1) storage so that we could free most P2Pool nodes from needing a local *coin node. I've spent a ton of time thinking of ways to implement parallel sharechains so that we can have shares more often, decreasing variance for small miners, while decreasing the strict latency requirements for hardware, sadly without any concrete results yet. Because this is a hard problem. I spent hundreds of hours in the summer of 2011 thinking about how P2Pool could possibly work, in a time before merged mining or pools with coinbase payouts even existed. Any further improvements that get us out of this local maxima that we're stuck in will require comparable amounts of thought.
.......

Like Forrest and others have said "this is a hard problem".

I'd like to see some really smart devs jump in and contribute to help solve the problems Forrest has been working on alone for some time now, fresh eyes and fresh ideas can go a long way and accelerate p2pools rise in popularity and use.

it is hard to work on this project when most people insist on cutting off the pool donations to me.

My node does not donate or charge a fee.

It is not because I think you are not entitled to compensation, its that I want to try and attract more miners to p2pool, and away from centralized pools.

Charging any fee above 0% right now will simply not get the job done.

I (and I think many others here) am willing to contribute to you Forrest, but I'd like to see it set up as some type of bounty system for work completed. As you said there are some real challenges, and throwing good money after bad does not seem like a solution to me...

So I guess the question is; what could the community do to motivate you to make p2pool a priority again other then the node donation %?


Thanks! I do plan to continue to develop it....

Does anyone know where i can get the p2pool luck over ~ 1 year?

Back to block 205238 is available on my pool stats page, all new blocks will be included. If anyone has the historical hash rate data for the pool the page could calculate luck back to the beginning....

Can Coin Cadence P2P Bitcoin Mining Pool frontend be dowloaded , it doesnt look so "beta" to me, I think it looks great and want to try it because it has many things in one place...

Not right now, it is still in beta, and there is a lot more I want to get done. To be candid, the full code may never be publicly available, there is a lot going on behind the scenes to generate the data, the db is already over 75MB, and I'm just not sure how to maintain all that data across different nodes running the front end. I've tried to make it platform independent, but some of the DB queries may be specific to MySQL...

That being said, when it's done, I will post a version of it on Github that will only require Bitcoind, p2pool, Highcharts, jquery, php, and Twitter Bootstrap. the addition of Highcharts, PHP, MySQL and Twitter Bootstrap



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June 22, 2014, 06:49:03 PM
 #9224

I already told you to do all that stuff a month or two ago, if it's the same project we're talking about, heh..  It won't have any impact on memory usage really, but you only need 2 connections on your bitcoind.

Using your settings I had virtually zero transactions.  Sad  That's why I asked...

M

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June 22, 2014, 09:24:15 PM
 #9225

How does the peering system work and what do incoming and outgoing peers do?

Are the outgoing peers downloading the sharechain from you because they haven´t got the complete list?

What happens when your node has no ingoing peers?


Does your peernetwork automatically grow with your nodes´online time?

I read somewhere that you can also "force" your node to peer with a certain other node, is there a benefit in that?

Does a bigger peer network mean less orphaned shares? (as the found share should be distributed faster around the p2pool network)


Peers talk to each other Smiley 20 peers is enough, but 30 is better... Yes they download the chain if they havent got it up todate. You dont necessarily need incoming peers, but if You can open port 9333 it helps network - all cant do that.

Force connect if theres a node you think is working very well and might help with your dead or orphan shares..

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June 22, 2014, 11:30:33 PM
 #9226

How does the peering system work and what do incoming and outgoing peers do?

Are the outgoing peers downloading the sharechain from you because they haven´t got the complete list?

What happens when your node has no ingoing peers?


Does your peernetwork automatically grow with your nodes´online time?

I read somewhere that you can also "force" your node to peer with a certain other node, is there a benefit in that?

Does a bigger peer network mean less orphaned shares? (as the found share should be distributed faster around the p2pool network)


Peers talk to each other Smiley 20 peers is enough, but 30 is better... Yes they download the chain if they havent got it up todate. You dont necessarily need incoming peers, but if You can open port 9333 it helps network - all cant do that.

Force connect if theres a node you think is working very well and might help with your dead or orphan shares..


These questions are relevant to me, thanks for posting Collider...

new p2pool node set up in Iceland http://is.centralcavern.uk:9332
currently downloading blockchain for a middle east node - to follow.

trying to set up nodes in regions of the world who are a little less served.
see - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655493.0 for reference.

thanks Collider - i've asked the boss if we can set this all up for our nodes.


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zvs
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June 23, 2014, 06:42:29 AM
 #9227

How does the peering system work and what do incoming and outgoing peers do?

Are the outgoing peers downloading the sharechain from you because they haven´t got the complete list?

What happens when your node has no ingoing peers?


Does your peernetwork automatically grow with your nodes´online time?

I read somewhere that you can also "force" your node to peer with a certain other node, is there a benefit in that?

Does a bigger peer network mean less orphaned shares? (as the found share should be distributed faster around the p2pool network)


Peers talk to each other Smiley 20 peers is enough, but 30 is better... Yes they download the chain if they havent got it up todate. You dont necessarily need incoming peers, but if You can open port 9333 it helps network - all cant do that.

Force connect if theres a node you think is working very well and might help with your dead or orphan shares..


These questions are relevant to me, thanks for posting Collider...

new p2pool node set up in Iceland http://is.centralcavern.uk:9332
currently downloading blockchain for a middle east node - to follow.

trying to set up nodes in regions of the world who are a little less served.
see - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655493.0 for reference.

thanks Collider - i've asked the boss if we can set this all up for our nodes.



A single peer could easily be better than 50.  There are too many variables.

Upstream inparticular is limited for some people, so if you get connected to a peer downloading the blockchain (and don't have something like Netlimiter), it could saturate your upstream and put you up around 1/2 a second latency to your first hop.  Likewise, a lot of peers that you request the blockchain from will either not send it at all or (even worse) will send it very slowly.  The client isn't aggressive enough in switching peers it tries to download the blockchain from.  Get connected to 8 random nodes & sometimes you'll get crap.

I've said it before, but when I ran p2pool on any server other than nogleg.com, I ran a bitcoind with two connections, one went to nogleg.com, and one was for p2pool.  Probably a better idea is to have three, in case that one goes down or gets DoS'ed or DDoS'ed or something (happened occasionally).  The p2pool client sends any blocks discovered over the p2pool network which I assume is faster than bitcoind the vast majority of the time (compare your p2pool log to your bitcoin debug log & time it to the millisecond, see which one reports it first).  Bitcoind I don't believe is needed except to generate new blocks, getheaders & maybe transactions? Aren't the other blocks also relayed via the p2pool network?

Quote
I don't see how such a block wouldn't pay the .5% bonus. The blocktemplate must always include it from the start to make a valid block, it can't be added afterwards or the block wouldn't be valid.
I haven't gone over the source in a long time, maybe it got changed since mid-2012.
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June 23, 2014, 08:05:25 AM
 #9228

So if you have 3 nodes on servers, with high bandwidth, manually peering them so every node has atleast two peers should give you a very good performance?

Is bandwidth the limiting factor on peers or is it ping time?
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June 23, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
 #9229

you won't get the .5% bonus for it
I don't see how it is even possible that block finder bonus depends on whether the corresponding P2Pool share is stale or not.
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June 23, 2014, 10:09:49 PM
 #9230

Hey guys, i have a technical question concerning p2pool.

While shares can quite easily be DOA because of the ~60times faster sharechain, found bitcoin blocks shouldn´t become dead/orphaned that quickly, as they are then broadcast on to the Bitcoin network.

So what happens, when my found share would be a Bitcoin block but the p2pool node considers it a "late" share? Is it still passed on to the Bitcoin network?



Yes, but it won't show up in the p2pool block list, either.... and you won't get the .5% bonus for it, just the "normal" amount earned.

... also why no-submit-stale is bad to use with p2pool.
You're correct about the no-submit-stale settings.  With p2pool you want to submit everything.  You're incorrect about not getting the 0.5%, though.  There's nothing in the generate_transaction code reliant upon whether or not the share is either stale or DOA.  It always divides up the rewards into 199/200 for miners on the share chain and 1/200 for the miner that found the block.

Hope that helps.

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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June 24, 2014, 11:37:58 AM
 #9231

Hey guys, i have a technical question concerning p2pool.

While shares can quite easily be DOA because of the ~60times faster sharechain, found bitcoin blocks shouldn´t become dead/orphaned that quickly, as they are then broadcast on to the Bitcoin network.

So what happens, when my found share would be a Bitcoin block but the p2pool node considers it a "late" share? Is it still passed on to the Bitcoin network?



Yes, but it won't show up in the p2pool block list, either.... and you won't get the .5% bonus for it, just the "normal" amount earned.

... also why no-submit-stale is bad to use with p2pool.
You're correct about the no-submit-stale settings.  With p2pool you want to submit everything.  You're incorrect about not getting the 0.5%, though.  There's nothing in the generate_transaction code reliant upon whether or not the share is either stale or DOA.  It always divides up the rewards into 199/200 for miners on the share chain and 1/200 for the miner that found the block.

Hope that helps.

cgminer default used to be no submit now its yes submit right?

i still remember setting "submit-stale" : true,

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June 24, 2014, 11:46:33 AM
 #9232

new US node up - http://us.centralcavern.uk:9332 (West Coast - San Francisco) if anyone needs it.  Smiley

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June 24, 2014, 12:06:10 PM
 #9233

Can someone go out back and kick the Luck Box again? I think the blocks are stuck...

Thanks Smiley

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June 24, 2014, 12:40:21 PM
 #9234

Where are the P2Pool Miner?! Stable german Node @ http://bitcoin.minerpool.de:9332 0% Fee!
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June 24, 2014, 01:12:45 PM
 #9235

0% node fee - Node in Amsterdam: http://p2pool.homesoft.ro:9332
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June 24, 2014, 06:17:32 PM
 #9236

Sent 10000 FSC to Fjhv8Sk8iC7AF76CTJbKo1zkHLUbTTTBs2

cb96de344bfb6bd769d2a3c5cc3900bbd33c1622d183025c057f6e0414466876 ?

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June 24, 2014, 07:50:11 PM
 #9237

Sent 10000 FSC to Fjhv8Sk8iC7AF76CTJbKo1zkHLUbTTTBs2

cb96de344bfb6bd769d2a3c5cc3900bbd33c1622d183025c057f6e0414466876 ?

Thanks. I thought I found a place to sell them, but they have no buyers.  For now I'm just holding these.

M

I mine at Kano's Pool because it pays the best and is completely transparent!  Come join me!
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June 24, 2014, 07:52:43 PM
 #9238

Sent 10000 FSC to Fjhv8Sk8iC7AF76CTJbKo1zkHLUbTTTBs2

cb96de344bfb6bd769d2a3c5cc3900bbd33c1622d183025c057f6e0414466876 ?

Thanks. I thought I found a place to sell them, but they have no buyers.  For now I'm just holding these.

M

it looks like a dead coin, i've got *rather a lot*  Roll Eyes

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
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June 24, 2014, 08:02:09 PM
 #9239

Dumped all mine at atomic-trade.com when I shut my node down.......

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
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June 24, 2014, 08:10:48 PM
 #9240

Coin Cadence Front End Update:

1. New hierarchical navigation menu, including global stats, available at top of each page. Categories should be self explanatory (I hope).




2. More data added to found blocks on Node and Miner dashboards, including luck.

3. Miner dashboard now available to all p2pool miners. There are 3 views:

The form:



Report example for off-node miner:



Report example for on-node miner:



4. Payouts per block on the miner dashboard (Miner BTC Reward above) can now be explored for all time with newer/older block navigation on bottom of page.

That is all for this update.

Now that we can view on and off node miner stats next release will include a new data tab on the Global Pool Dashboard that includes all miners, active miner expected payouts, and historical payouts for all time. Also hoping to work out estimated miner hashrates from June 11th onward.

Fun p2pool fact: Since inception 11,296 unique addresses have mined on p2pool and received a payout.

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