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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2029148 times)
psahx
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July 10, 2014, 11:55:00 PM
 #9581

Correct. It is the only truly decentralised pool software. Knock yourself out (and do the network a favour)  Wink

What about Luke-Jr's statement? He is a reputable member, could he just speculate about something, that does not exist?

Thanks!
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July 11, 2014, 12:03:03 AM
 #9582

Correct. It is the only truly decentralised pool software. Knock yourself out (and do the network a favour)  Wink

What about Luke-Jr's statement? He is a reputable member, could he just speculate about something, that does not exist?

Thanks!

Sorry, but Luke is a racist twat.

Don't get me wrong, he's marginally clever, but he also comes out with some utter bullshit.

He likes to copy other peoples code & call it his as well, but that's another story.

Reputable? Nah.

Have you been a victim of dogie insults, neg-rep'd for no reason or been falsely accused by him? If so, air your experiences here:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=905210.0
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mdude77
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July 11, 2014, 12:20:42 AM
 #9583

Correct. It is the only truly decentralised pool software. Knock yourself out (and do the network a favour)  Wink

What about Luke-Jr's statement? He is a reputable member, could he just speculate about something, that does not exist?

Thanks!

Ask him for specifics.

Since the p2pool alt chain is modeled after the bitcoin chain, it sort of makes sense that a 51% attack is possible.  Anyone else have thoughts on this?

M

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psahx
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July 11, 2014, 12:26:57 AM
 #9584

Don't get me wrong, he's marginally clever, but he also comes out with some utter bullshit.

That could be the reason...

I know what you mean by code copying. You mean ckolivas and luke situation. I am aware of that. I know also about luke and BFL. It still makes me nervous, when a person like luke(regarding his overall contribution in bitcoin) makes such a depressing statements.

I mean, with everything going on now with GHASHs share in the network, the only reasonable solution for me is to try to mine at p2pool and to promote it amongst other miners too. I would be more than happy to see all the old good pools transform to p2pool nodes one day.

If his statement is true, it looks to me, that bitcoin has no future at all... That is why I am so confused.

Could somebody, please try to explain why he is wrong?

Thank you!

Ask him for specifics.

Since the p2pool alt chain is modeled after the bitcoin chain, it sort of makes sense that a 51% attack is possible.  Anyone else have thoughts on this?

M

I did already, actually before posting here.
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July 11, 2014, 01:41:08 AM
 #9585

Sure he does. He could even 51% attack p2pool to get up to ~200% PPS (at the expense of everyone else).

Can someone please explain this? I do not understand much about p2pool, but one thing definitely attracts me, is the decentralization. And by saying decentralization, I get it like nobody can do a 51% attack, right?

I am seriously considering moving to p2pool, but there is lot of controversial information around bitcointalk, so I have a dilemma now. To move, or not to move, that's the question now....

No, this is a misconception.

If p2pool itself had more than 50% of the network, then nobody could do 51% attack (except in the unlikely scenario that an individual p2pool miner has more than 50% of the bitcoin network's hashing power)

Lukejr's talking about someone doing a 51% attack on the p2pool sharechain, not on the bitcoin blockchain.

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psahx
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July 11, 2014, 01:44:29 AM
 #9586

No, this is a misconception.

If p2pool itself had more than 50% of the network, then nobody could do 51% attack (except in the unlikely scenario that an individual p2pool miner has more than 50% of the bitcoin network's hashing power)

Lukejr's talking about someone doing a 51% attack on the p2pool sharechain, not on the bitcoin blockchain.

Thanks, this is how eleuthria explains it, that makes sense to me. And you are talking pretty much same thing.

Sure he does. He could even 51% attack p2pool to get up to ~200% PPS (at the expense of everyone else).

Could you please explain a 51% p2pool attack in more detail? I mean, lot of people believe, that p2pool is the most decentralized mining option available, and you state, that a 51% attack could be done to p2pool?

p2pool is like a miniature Bitcoin blockchain.  If you had 51% of the p2pool hash rate, you could (more often than not) force your own shares into the sharechain instead of someone elses by forking it until your chain was longer.  I'm not sure what, if any, precautions are present in p2pool to prevent somebody from purposely forking the sharechain in their favor.

An "obvious" one would be making it so nodes ignore a forked chain more than 'X' shares deep, if it all pays out to the same address (indicating somebody forked from the chain to build a longer one that only pays themselves), though all that you'd have to do to combat that is cycle through addresses when making your fork.

In other words, p2pool users would be mining a block which pays almost the entire reward to the attacker, even though they've only done 51% of the actual work.
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July 11, 2014, 05:00:36 AM
 #9587

2014-07-11 12:57:13.317931 GOT BLOCK FROM PEER! Passing to bitcoind! abdb7e70 bitcoin: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000001fa1683420d77e52fc673e689386cf2729077ce0abdb7e70


http://183.148.139.77:9332/static/
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July 11, 2014, 05:48:45 AM
 #9588

Thanks, this is how eleuthria explains it, that makes sense to me. And you are talking pretty much same thing.

It's something that doesn't have an easy solution. If one is found for the p2pool sharechain, it could probably be used for the blockchain too, so it would be a big deal.

Does anyone know how a 200%+ PPS attack would work, exactly?
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July 11, 2014, 06:50:53 AM
 #9589

Thanks, this is how eleuthria explains it, that makes sense to me. And you are talking pretty much same thing.

It's something that doesn't have an easy solution. If one is found for the p2pool sharechain, it could probably be used for the blockchain too, so it would be a big deal.

Does anyone know how a 200%+ PPS attack would work, exactly?

The 200% PPS part didn't make sense to me from Luke-Jr's post.  Only the fact that they would earn a little under twice what they should earn if a 51% attack was done against p2pool's sharechain, assuming they had just over half.  But it's not a stealth attack, it would be noticeable before p2pool actually found a block (100% orphan/doa rates for all p2pool peers in the long run).

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mdude77
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July 11, 2014, 11:07:48 AM
 #9590

Thanks, this is how eleuthria explains it, that makes sense to me. And you are talking pretty much same thing.

It's something that doesn't have an easy solution. If one is found for the p2pool sharechain, it could probably be used for the blockchain too, so it would be a big deal.

Does anyone know how a 200%+ PPS attack would work, exactly?

The 200% PPS part didn't make sense to me from Luke-Jr's post.  Only the fact that they would earn a little under twice what they should earn if a 51% attack was done against p2pool's sharechain, assuming they had just over half.  But it's not a stealth attack, it would be noticeable before p2pool actually found a block (100% orphan/doa rates for all p2pool peers in the long run).

The simple solution is the same solution we have for the BTC blockchain - make sure no one individual/node has 50% of the hashpower in p2pool.

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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July 11, 2014, 12:09:17 PM
 #9591

Hello P2POOL fans,My Chinese partners back to P2POOL with 250TH/S.
Most people think forrestv does not work well,We are also very concerned about.
What we can do is to bring the force to support P2POOL count accommodate higher global Bitcoin difficulty.So that we can see in a short period of time block.
My Chinese partners where deeply grateful to those unknown bhaktas,
Their efforts make us come back, I hope we work together to improve P2POOL.
In the end of 2014 P2POOL force to achieve 2PH/S. Cheesy

             
               
                                            Friends of mine from China P2POOL
                                         


Greetings & welcome back our Chinese friends!  We are all concerned about forrestv & his lack of development, communication & general attitude - I believe we need a new team of developers here.

Please let us know if you have anyone in mind?  Wink  Cheesy Cheesy

The formation of a new team, which is exciting things。What is the core of this team is? If you can help improve or replace forrestv with P2POOL, So we recommend the development of a new mine pool P2POOL program based on the original pool on mine. Donated the default way to support the team's work, P2POOL pool page to create a fully open payment address. If the team effort is effective to enhance the output of the block, then the operator will attract more P2POOL force. Team will get more donor funding, more donor funds to reward the team updates. Achieve a virtuous circle. Our original mine pool system is a seemingly open-source, but not open-source environment. This affects the development of P2POOL(This is just my personal understanding, does not mean others). Write P2POOL tutorial when conditions are right, every step of the process in detail. This will help build more miners mining LAN environment, improve efficiency and operator P2POOL pool. Because not all the miners have basic computer knowledge, bitcoin need develop, we need more people to enter our different levels. An official graphic tutorial to help those who do not understand computer technology.
This is some of our facile suggestions.Most of us are LAN mining, even a small force calculation, the efficiency of the local area network is the best!
 Smiley Cheesy Grin
wlz2011
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July 11, 2014, 12:10:06 PM
 #9592

Hello P2POOL fans,My Chinese partners back to P2POOL with 250TH/S.
Most people think forrestv does not work well,We are also very concerned about.
What we can do is to bring the force to support P2POOL count accommodate higher global Bitcoin difficulty.So that we can see in a short period of time block.
My Chinese partners where deeply grateful to those unknown bhaktas,
Their efforts make us come back, I hope we work together to improve P2POOL.
In the end of 2014 P2POOL force to achieve 2PH/S. Cheesy

              
              
                                            Friends of mine from China P2POOL
                                          


@ wlz2011:  Do any of you guys have contact with Bitmain?  Maybe you could share our concern with them about their products not supporting p2pool? This might encourage them to speed up a fix so that users of Bitmain products will be able to mine with us.....

Peace  Smiley

做任何你们有与Bitmain接触?也许你可以与他们分享我们关注他们的产品不支持p2pool?这可能会鼓励他们加快修复,使Bitmain产品的用户将能够开采与我们.....

(Google translate)  Wink

My dear friends, this issue hardly, mining machine businessman willing to sell fast, not like asking for trouble. My Chinese friends and they have to find ways to consultations, and we hope to solve AntMiner Bitmain connection P2POOL problem. If not resolved, we can only hope P2POOL new team attempts to modify P2POOL accommodate more mining machine. Smiley Sad
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July 11, 2014, 12:31:12 PM
 #9593

I don' t think luke-jr is wrong in this case.
The thread in question is actually about the block-withholding  attack:
Does block withdraw method work against p2pool?
You mean block withholding.
Yes, it does.
It's actually worse there because nobody can stop it.

In that post, Luke-Jr is pointing out the advantages of a centralized pool.

Who (specifically) profits from such an attack remains an open question.

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July 11, 2014, 11:30:50 PM
 #9594

Thanks, this is how eleuthria explains it, that makes sense to me. And you are talking pretty much same thing.

It's something that doesn't have an easy solution. If one is found for the p2pool sharechain, it could probably be used for the blockchain too, so it would be a big deal.

Does anyone know how a 200%+ PPS attack would work, exactly?

The 200% PPS part didn't make sense to me from Luke-Jr's post.  Only the fact that they would earn a little under twice what they should earn if a 51% attack was done against p2pool's sharechain, assuming they had just over half.  But it's not a stealth attack, it would be noticeable before p2pool actually found a block (100% orphan/doa rates for all p2pool peers in the long run).

The simple solution is the same solution we have for the BTC blockchain - make sure no one individual/node has 50% of the hashpower in p2pool.

M

A few weeks ago Petamine was thinking of joining P2Pool. They have about 1.15 Petahash or thereabouts. At the time P2Pool was barely hitting 1PH itself, so they would immediately have been over 51%. The pool dropped to something like 300-400TH/s for a bit after this, too.

They didn't join, but what could we have done if they did? A lot of people were saying "Join p2pool!", but then had they actually joined, people would have been saying "Don't join p2pool!!". It's not really a solution so much as an inevitable and hilarious outcome.

If I understand it correctly, it's a big deal solving this problem, because any solution that could solve it for p2pool could likely also be applied to the blockchain.
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July 11, 2014, 11:43:22 PM
 #9595

It's not that they didn't join, they couldn't join. In it's current state the 51% issue with p2pool is a complete non-issue - there simply isn't enough compatible hardware out there that works with p2pool to get to even 30%, let alone 51% - and that's if all the compatible hardware was pointing at it.

Don't worry yourselves  Cheesy

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July 11, 2014, 11:43:38 PM
 #9596

Thanks, this is how eleuthria explains it, that makes sense to me. And you are talking pretty much same thing.

It's something that doesn't have an easy solution. If one is found for the p2pool sharechain, it could probably be used for the blockchain too, so it would be a big deal.

Does anyone know how a 200%+ PPS attack would work, exactly?

The 200% PPS part didn't make sense to me from Luke-Jr's post.  Only the fact that they would earn a little under twice what they should earn if a 51% attack was done against p2pool's sharechain, assuming they had just over half.  But it's not a stealth attack, it would be noticeable before p2pool actually found a block (100% orphan/doa rates for all p2pool peers in the long run).

The simple solution is the same solution we have for the BTC blockchain - make sure no one individual/node has 50% of the hashpower in p2pool.

M

A few weeks ago Petamine was thinking of joining P2Pool. They have about 1.15 Petahash or thereabouts. At the time P2Pool was barely hitting 1PH itself, so they would immediately have been over 51%. The pool dropped to something like 300-400TH/s for a bit after this, too.

They didn't join, but what could we have done if they did? A lot of people were saying "Join p2pool!", but then had they actually joined, people would have been saying "Don't join p2pool!!". It's not really a solution so much as an inevitable and hilarious outcome.

If I understand it correctly, it's a big deal solving this problem, because any solution that could solve it for p2pool could likely also be applied to the blockchain.

They could work around it by pointing 1/2 of their workers at one node, and 1/2 at another.

M

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July 12, 2014, 01:47:06 AM
 #9597

A few weeks ago Petamine was thinking of joining P2Pool. They have about 1.15 Petahash or thereabouts. At the time P2Pool was barely hitting 1PH itself, so they would immediately have been over 51%. The pool dropped to something like 300-400TH/s for a bit after this, too.

They didn't join, but what could we have done if they did? A lot of people were saying "Join p2pool!", but then had they actually joined, people would have been saying "Don't join p2pool!!". It's not really a solution so much as an inevitable and hilarious outcome.

If I understand it correctly, it's a big deal solving this problem, because any solution that could solve it for p2pool could likely also be applied to the blockchain.

They could work around it by pointing 1/2 of their workers at one node, and 1/2 at another.

M

I figured that too, but if someone wants to attack with that much hashing power, couldn't they just disguise the attack under multiple nodes all running the same hack?

If they were legit, they could just spread it to various free public nodes assuming they were close enough.
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July 12, 2014, 02:02:43 AM
 #9598


A few weeks ago Petamine was thinking of joining P2Pool. They have about 1.15 Petahash or thereabouts. At the time P2Pool was barely hitting 1PH itself, so they would immediately have been over 51%. The pool dropped to something like 300-400TH/s for a bit after this, too.

They didn't join, but what could we have done if they did? A lot of people were saying "Join p2pool!", but then had they actually joined, people would have been saying "Don't join p2pool!!". It's not really a solution so much as an inevitable and hilarious outcome.

If I understand it correctly, it's a big deal solving this problem, because any solution that could solve it for p2pool could likely also be applied to the blockchain.

I would be happy to welcome PETAMINE to p2pool, I even offered to build them a custom front end.

The 51% on p2pool would not be an issue.

All that means is that they would get to pick the criteria for transactions included in 51% of the blocks found by the pool. If I'm PETAMINE I'm going to want the juicy transactions just like any other miner...

Right now we are barely 1% of the Bitcoin network, manipulating found blocks by p2pool would be completely irrelevant as far as bitcoin itself is concerned...

Also, They would NOT be able to influence payments for found shares, or alter a block that had been worked on by anyone outside their mine at all for that matter...

The only exception would be to withhold a found block and influence our stats, by withholding the block no one would get paid and our stats might crap out, but that is certainly not in their best interest...

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July 12, 2014, 02:05:18 AM
 #9599

If Peta-Mine was an even larger portion of p2pool, it could become a problem.  You don't have to be malicious to get more than your fair share.  Just like with Bitcoin, there's an inherent advantage to being a larger share of the network (or larger share of p2pool in this case).  The bigger you are, the more likely you are to confirm your own block/share in an orphan race.

Ironically, this would also reward them for having a *worse* connection to the rest of the p2pool network, because they're more likely to cause orphan races that way, and they would have a better than 50% chance of winning the race each time.  It requires no effort or malicious intentions, it's simply how the system would work in that scenario.

I actually made this argument back in early 2013 when people kept screaming that ASICMINER (at the time > 25% of the entire BTC network) should use p2pool.  Had they done it, they would have likely performed an "accidental 51%" attack because of their poor latency (being based in China) and the fact that they would have completely dwarfed the rest of p2pool's hashrate at the time.


It wouldn't be quite as big of a problem these days since p2pool increased the average share time.  It's still a slight issue where somebody with a significant hash rate (> 50%) is able to get a little more than their fair share, but it would have been extremely bad if p2pool still used the 10-second target time for shares.

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July 12, 2014, 02:20:58 AM
 #9600

 The bigger you are, the more likely you are to confirm your own block/share in an orphan race.

This is a valid point, but I would offer 2 counterpoints:

1. How often could this really occur, there are hundred(s) of p2pool nodes, the best connected are more likley to have the longest chain at 30 second shares, and there is only a 72 hour share chain window to play around with before it's vanished to the either... I imagine it could occasionally accidentally happen, but we are not strangers to orphaned shares as it stands Wink

2. A big operation joining the pool, let's say 1PH/s, would cut our variance by more then 50% from were we are now, this would attract other miners to the pool who were held back by < 1 block per day... Those other miners would most likely remove a 51% advantage pretty quickly...

Again, you are right, but I just don't see it as a big threat, in fact I would welcome and encourage large mines to join p2pool!

Just my BTC0.02...


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