[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[marticps]

Open Source Alternatives for 2D Animation:

Synfig
Pencil
Tupi

General Guidance for Alternatives:

http://www.osalt.com/

Lets see:
These alternatives are not as powerful as Flash. But you are right, it'd be better to use one of them. Anyway, I haven't learned that at college and, the most important point is the following:
Being open source does mean that its source code is available for everybody to view, edit and redistribute it. The fact that Adobe Flash is not open source does not mean that the works created with it can't be open source.

If you want to learn how to work with any of these softwares, go ahead. I can't. It should be really nice to do all my design work with open source alternatives, but just I can't: From alias, inventor, catia or solidworks to flash.

EDIT:
I agree with you with all you have said, it is rather better to use open source licenses. I will never give my money to companies such as Adobe. At this moment, due to my experience and free time, I can't manage to work with an open source alternative. But this doesn't mean that the work I create will be propietary work.

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[markm]

I agree with you with all you have said, it is rather better to use open source licenses. I will never give my money to companies such as Adobe. At this moment, due to my experience and free time, I can't manage to work with an open source alternative. But this doesn't mean that the work I create will be propietary work.

It is the actual product I am concerned about. A movie that you need a proprietary viewer to view is not suitable, it has to be in a codex that is open source and that has open source viewers available to view it.

Even if any open source viewers can view it, the actual media itself, the codex, the file they tell the viewer to display, should be an open source codex/format/type.

People should not need to use flash to see the thing.

Also, re "Being open source does mean that its source code is available for everybody to view, edit and redistribute it. The fact that Adobe Flash is not open source does not mean that the works created with it can't be open source.", we support free open source, not all open source. Commercial, proprietary etc open source does not qualify. Free as in freedom - to re-use, base derivative works on, alter, re-arrange, re-purpose, distribute, redistribute (all these freedoms go with it to those it is distributed to) etc - not necessarily free as in beer.

-MarkM-

[marticps]

I agree with you with all you have said, it is rather better to use open source licenses. I will never give my money to companies such as Adobe. At this moment, due to my experience and free time, I can't manage to work with an open source alternative. But this doesn't mean that the work I create will be propietary work.

It is the actual product I am concerned about. A movie that you need a proprietary viewer to view is not suitable, it has to be in a codex that is open source and that has open source viewers avilable to view it.

Even if any open source viewers can view it, the actual media itself, the codex, the file they tell the viewer to display, should be an open source codex/format/type.

People should not need to use flash to see the thing.

-MarkM-

Nice, have you tried with these formats I uploaded few posts ago? You should view them properly (webm or ogv).

[markm]

Reposting this, if this is THE thread (I'd bin the 'aegis' part of the title as just confusing)

Good as the other thread was locked.

is our wiki system really primitive or something (it mgiht well be)? As I thought in wikis once you put a categories section at the bottom of your article the category pages pick it up automatically, no one has to manually go around picking out page names and pasting them into the category pages, on the contrary the category pages are automatically created/generated and updated by the software.

All my pages I put a category on the bottom of should automagically appear on the corresponding category pages. in fact possibly even if i label them as in a category that does not exist it is possible the system is intended to automatically create that category, though i am not sure on that, maybe wikipedia doesn't want new categories made up on the spot for example.

it is possible that the script to create/update the categories is not being run on schedule by the cron daemon, but if so probably a human is expected to run it periodically.

Basically all the work you did pasting pagenames in the category pages should have been done by simply running a script.

it still of course depends on pages actually having a categories section listing what categories the page belongs in.

-MarkM-

[markm]

I think that what doesn't make sense is what markm said. It's strange because I think he should have clear what is open source and what it is not.
Edit: Open source means that I will publish the source files, and allow people to view, edit and create new versions of this source files, despite the software I used to create it is not open source. That's what I have learned.

I am saying flash source code is not suitable for devcoin backing because flash is a proprietary language not a free open language-specification, as far as I know.

If indeed flash is a free open specification that other people besides macromedia or whoever it is has free open source viewers for, even then it is probably not suitable. There were free open source viewers for GIFs but still GIFs don't go in distros.

Can't flash building tools output normal animation formats, whatever they are? (Not animated GIFs, as GIFs are also deprecated...)

-MarkM-

[marticps]

I think that what doesn't make sense is what markm said. It's strange because I think he should have clear what is open source and what it is not.
Edit: Open source means that I will publish the source files, and allow people to view, edit and create new versions of this source files, despite the software I used to create it is not open source. That's what I have learned.

I am saying flash source code is not suitable for devcoin backing because flash is a proprietary language not a free open language-specification, as far as I know.

If indeed flash is a free open specification that other people besides macromedia or whoever it is has free open source viewers for, even then it is probably not suitable. There were free open source viewers for GIFs but still GIFs don't go in distros.

Can't flash building tools output normal animation formats, whatever they are? (Not animated GIFs, as GIFs are also deprecated...)

-MarkM-

Well I was thinking of making a normal video format, not an animation format... (of course not thinking of GIF at all). About the source code, it'd be a .fla format.

[markm]

3. For example, I'm using Debian wtih Gnash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnash) but not Adobe Flash, and I can watch Youtube videos. But not videos on other sites. Apparently most flash video players use some feature which is specific to Adobe Flash and are not compatible with Gnash. However, it is only a problem with player (i.e. a thing which shows buttons and whatnot), not a problem with video format itself.
4. FWIW Gnash uses ffmpeg/avcodec.

EDIT: Oh, it isn't video, it is Flash animation. I've downloaded it and it seems to be work fine with Gnash, so it is open source enough, I guess.

Okay so maybe the problem is the browsers, they claim a plugin is needed to view flash, and they aren't offering any free open source flash viewing tool they just send me to macromedia or adobe or whoever and they say sorry we are not going to be supporting Linux.

So maybe the free open source browser folks just don't know yet that there is a free open source flash viewer they can point people to, or they have not plugged it in yet because so far the commerical/propriery one has not actually stopped support yet they are just saying they are going to.

For youtube I often used to be told by the browser it simply cannot find any plugin at all that can view whatever it was that it thought i needed a plugin to view. I haven't actually run into that lately for some reason but maybe mostly because I got used to not bothering to click on links to youtube. (People seldom bother to include transcripts and I didn't want sound on my computer as I already had that on my television.)

-MarkM-

[weisoq]

Reposting this, if this is THE thread (I'd bin the 'aegis' part of the title as just confusing)

Good as the other thread was locked.

is our wiki system really primitive or something (it mgiht well be)? As I thought in wikis once you put a categories section at the bottom of your article the category pages pick it up automatically, no one has to manually go around picking out page names and pasting them into the category pages, on the contrary the category pages are automatically created/generated and updated by the software.

All my pages I put a category on the bottom of should automagically appear on the corresponding category pages. in fact possibly even if i label them as in a category that does not exist it is possible the system is intended to automatically create that category, though i am not sure on that, maybe wikipedia doesn't want new categories made up on the spot for example.

it is possible that the script to create/update the categories is not being run on schedule by the cron daemon, but if so probably a human is expected to run it periodically.

Basically all the work you did pasting pagenames in the category pages should have been done by simply running a script.

it still of course depends on pages actually having a categories section listing what categories the page belongs in.

-MarkM-

I'm not sure but either way it wasn't being done. I wasn't aware of any auto categorisation pick-up, I actually only realised I was even meant to categorise after reading it all through again more recently. This seems to be the same for most others, who like me haven't and don't categorise at the base of articles. I've also only realised in the last day that there's a difference between say [[[category:topic]] and [[topic]] so that's my learning curve issue and slowly amending any I've created without it. Problem is that my ignorance is similar to most others'.

A more automated/familiarity with an exisiting conceptual system would be great. Even if it already exists and I'm missing the point (or doing it wrong - especially if I'm doing it wrong), if there's a quicker/better way of doing it I'd love to know about it.

[marticps]

3. For example, I'm using Debian wtih Gnash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnash) but not Adobe Flash, and I can watch Youtube videos. But not videos on other sites. Apparently most flash video players use some feature which is specific to Adobe Flash and are not compatible with Gnash. However, it is only a problem with player (i.e. a thing which shows buttons and whatnot), not a problem with video format itself.
4. FWIW Gnash uses ffmpeg/avcodec.

EDIT: Oh, it isn't video, it is Flash animation. I've downloaded it and it seems to be work fine with Gnash, so it is open source enough, I guess.

Okay so maybe the problem is the browsers, they claim a plugin is needed to view flash, and they aren't offering any free open source flash viewing tool they just send me to macromedia or adobe or whoever and they say sorry we are not going to be supporting Linux.

So maybe the free open source browser folks just don't know yet that there is a free open source flash viewer they can point people to, or they have not plugged it in yet because so far the commerical/propriery one has not actually stopped support yet they are just saying they are going to.

For youtube I often used to be told by the browser it simply cannot find any plugin at all that can view whatever it was that it thought i needed a plugin to view. I haven't actually run into that lately for some reason but maybe mostly because I got used to not bothering to click on links to youtube.

-MarkM-

Isn't youtube using html5 video too?

[markm]

Isn't youtube using html5 video too?

If it is that might explain why i have not had trouble lately viewing youtube videos the few times I have bothered. (I even have speakers/earphones now so have tried once or twice just to see if those work. I still hate the lack of random-access visual scan for parts worth reading though so still prefer written material. Maybe a speed control would help to be able to make it go faster without actually missing what you are zooming through...)

-MarkM-

[markm]

Missing pages are sometimes ones not yet written, the red simply indicates the author hopes a page about the red term will exist someday; they might not even be planning to write such a page someday themselves, they might just be indicating its a page that would have links waiting to send traffic if someone did bother to write such a page.

Looking for red spots might be a good way to come up with ideas for articles. Though probably best check the author of the red won't mind someone else going ahead and whipping up a page to fill the indicated need. For me for example I make links to Galactic Milieu pages i expect to have to write someday and would want to write those myself, but also to terms that likely other places like wikipedia or whatever have articles on so we probably also should but that aren't directly on the route of the writing agenda i have at the time. Free links for whoever does make the page, and also indications i'd rather refer to a page about it on devtome than resort to putting a link to a wikipedia article about it.

its a pain going back later looking for pages that mention your new page's topic and wikifying them, seemed more reasonable to wikify them from the start so once the page does get written going searching for places to put links to it won't be necessary. Or not as necessary anyway.

-MarkM-

[soma13]

Can i suggest

[DVC] DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated by Aegis

[ranlo]

3. For example, I'm using Debian wtih Gnash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnash) but not Adobe Flash, and I can watch Youtube videos. But not videos on other sites. Apparently most flash video players use some feature which is specific to Adobe Flash and are not compatible with Gnash. However, it is only a problem with player (i.e. a thing which shows buttons and whatnot), not a problem with video format itself.
4. FWIW Gnash uses ffmpeg/avcodec.

EDIT: Oh, it isn't video, it is Flash animation. I've downloaded it and it seems to be work fine with Gnash, so it is open source enough, I guess.

Okay so maybe the problem is the browsers, they claim a plugin is needed to view flash, and they aren't offering any free open source flash viewing tool they just send me to macromedia or adobe or whoever and they say sorry we are not going to be supporting Linux.

So maybe the free open source browser folks just don't know yet that there is a free open source flash viewer they can point people to, or they have not plugged it in yet because so far the commerical/propriery one has not actually stopped support yet they are just saying they are going to.

For youtube I often used to be told by the browser it simply cannot find any plugin at all that can view whatever it was that it thought i needed a plugin to view. I haven't actually run into that lately for some reason but maybe mostly because I got used to not bothering to click on links to youtube.

-MarkM-

Isn't youtube using html5 video too?

I don't think so. Last month I did a reformat and had to install flash to view videos again. Unless they changed it since then.

[K1773R]

Can i suggest

[DVC] DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated by Aegis

signed. thats a much better topic name than the one being used now...

[ranlo]

Can i suggest

[DVC] DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated by Aegis

signed. thats a much better topic name than the one being used now...

Or even take out the Aegis name and put  moderated. I don't think most people care who is moderating it; it's an "official" thread.

[K1773R]

Can i suggest
[DVC] DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated by Aegis

signed. thats a much better topic name than the one being used now...

Or even take out the Aegis name and put  moderated. I don't think most people care who is moderating it; it's an "official" thread.

that works well too, when i first saw it, it remembered me of the Age of Empires 2 cheat "aegis" and was like, wtf?

[weisoq]

Devtome is a DokuWiki platform. I've been working through their instructions trying get them on Devtome, but it's easier said than done. I still haven't got an internal image posted but more for lack of time.

Here is the link to "Plugins".
https://www.dokuwiki.org/plugins#creating_plugins

Here is link to "Users Manual".
https://www.dokuwiki.org/manual

I got "Advanced Syntax" on Devtome last night.
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_advanced_syntax

Here's a DokuWiki "FAQ: page.
https://www.dokuwiki.org/faq

I'm still getting into it. You can access the DokuWiki by clicking on the icon on the bottom of a Devtome page, second icon from the right. Maybe some answers in here?

EDIT: There are a lot of pages that need to be copied over. Where ever you see red text (on Devtome) is a missing page.  

Ok thanks well I've categorised some but as I'm not sure about how any automated element works I'll leave it for now until it's clearer.

[ranlo]

Can i suggest
[DVC] DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated by Aegis

signed. thats a much better topic name than the one being used now...

Or even take out the Aegis name and put  moderated. I don't think most people care who is moderating it; it's an "official" thread.

that works well too, when i first saw it, it remembered me of the Age of Empires 2 cheat "aegis" and was like, wtf?

lol, in the sense of the coins it looks like it could be a fork or something. Just kind of out of place.

[ashleysly]

So what's happened to the devcoin exchange rates? They had decreased dramatically!

[jasinlee]

Flash is dying fast. I don't bother installing the old versions that do work because already I get warnings that they do not plan to have any new versions work, so I might as well just get used to the fact that flash is just another walled garden I not only do not want anything to do with but also could not have anything to do with even if I wanted to because its that they don't want me in there not that I wouldn't've continued to grudgingly install their stupid proprietary crap from "network effects" unwashed-masses-pressure if they continued to make it actually work.

TL;DR: Flash is not going to be working on Linux going forward, so no one on Linux is likely to bother installing some long out of date version of a proprietary viewer just to view some adumentary...

Surely there must be some free open source animation system by now?

I would even argue that it is totally inappropriate, even undermining of DeVCoin principles, to be using some non open source crap to make our videos. It is a kind of misrepresentation even maybe, or at the least it implies that we too agree that free open source software is unsuitable for use for real world applications such as educational videos...

FOR SURE WE CANNOT PAY BOUNTY ON IT, RIGHT?

The entire content becomes non free-open-source by being unusable without a proprietary viewer???

-MarkM-

Let's see, I've send you a .swf file because it's really light, but of course it won't be the final format file. The other option was to send you a video file from near 1GB, instead of this 24kb file. Flash is the software I use, actionscript is the language I use, but that does not mean that you will need a propietary viewer. I think you did not get what is open source and what is flash. I am not telling that you'll need to have installed Flash in order to see the video. You asked me for a sample of the video and I showed that.

Adobe Flash is just a tool to create a video file. HTML5 animation is not useful for us, because it'd be less supported and it'd last years and years to load a 15' animation. If I make a video file, you just can embed it into your website using .ogg, .mp4 or .webm.

So markm, I think you are a programmer (correct me if wrong). Have you ever worked with designers? All this non open source crap you are talking about is basically the only crap we have to design. It's not wonderful, I know, but it's what we have. It is not about the software we use, but about the content we create. The licenses don't enter at the creation software and tools level, just on the content and creations.

Please don't hesitate to ask any doubt you have, but please don't talk without knowledge of the situation, as a lot of people here in devcoin community does.



On the other side, I think that if I have to be funded by donations the best way to work is to keep uploading all the new versions, in order to let you know where am I and what I am doing, so if you don't like you just have to say it. So, the first sample is the following (cool formats for everybody):
.ogv: https://mega.co.nz/#!Es9QjJAS!NB5pZEt4dWP7BmcDrIeba2UGu2EGVHZujzgnEMqjnfY
.mp4: https://mega.co.nz/#!Rw1xhAwB!GYnGhTr9K4YrEhWl_I6kvgfGLZlrSajxFYCr2rGJs4o
.webm: https://mega.co.nz/#!sll0zKaL!ede6gSVOR26bFyXxGBx0Ph7BagAVr-usz-4usXIUN94

Marticps I would say just post your own donation address, and we can just send you coins directly. Please specify type that you would prefer btc/ltc/dvc etc.

BTC: 13oSBu1fFzLs157TWJY7bkVSoMab69zKNn
DVC: 1MFKi4r2U89o8w5YSxE4BfcTxmgg6wMpci

We are making an explanation video for Devcoin as a whole.
We'll make an animation video with an voice over. (Kinda like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um63OQz3bjo )
Do we have a final devcoin logo to use that is voted upon? Or can we push that vote up to now if possible.

Needs Clarification:

• Marticps does the animation, but needs a script, if someone is proficient at script writing please stand up.
  If someone already started a script who is it so we can mark you down.
• There is a small bounty available for producing a video, but considering that the rules dont really allow for expanding on it, we are asking for pledged donations for marticps as this is a monumental task and very important step to building up devcoin.
• There was not a certain date set for the video to be produced, but I am sure the bitcoin education site would like to have it sooner rather than later.
  I am planning on doing the voice over for free for the video.

Any comments please discuss.

Only a few points:
The video should be about 15 minutes. I find it maybe too long.
My skills can't do something as the video jasinlee posted, don't expect that please. I try to do something simple but pretty (https://mega.co.nz/#!Zp8TBCSQ!HsgP-z2rdA3rzy0c28TP20K7b6NOdmgbsb46p4QfHbw (Flash required, I hope fonts are embedded)).
I will do the animation in function of the script. It'd be better to record the off-voice before or to add timing at the script, in order to make the video and the audio fit in a proper way.

Thanks

Anyone able to write the script as a template for us as a guide that we can modify into the 15 minutes requested?

And markm, have you ever thought of looking for a solution, then posting that theorized solution instead of just explaining why something is so terrible ? This is a think tank not a whine tank.