[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[ranlo]

I suggest redoubling the bounties which have not been awarded even in part. This would redouble the bounties for the forum, the Open Transactions Client (for Grandmas), the pool:
www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_bounty_now

and Emfox's link faucet upgrade. Any objections?

I think what we need more than any of those is some sort of marketplace... none of the things in the bounty area help give the currency some value, as they all still leave it with one use: trading in to BTC.

[doublec]

I suggest redoubling the bounties which have not been awarded even in part.

What does "redoubling the bounties" mean? Do you mean multiplying them by 2?

[Unthinkingbit]

I suggest redoubling the bounties which have not been awarded even in part. This would redouble the bounties for the forum, the Open Transactions Client (for Grandmas), the pool:
www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_bounty_now

and Emfox's link faucet upgrade. Any objections?

I think what we need more than any of those is some sort of marketplace... none of the things in the bounty area help give the currency some value, as they all still leave it with one use: trading in to BTC.

All of these things help indirectly. The forum would make it easier to communicate and organize projects, the Open Transactions Client would make it easier to trade cryptocurrencies and stocks, the pool would convert bitcoins to devcoins, and Emfox's link faucet upgrade would increase the popularity of devtome.

I agree that we should also have bounties for selling stuff in devcoins. For the marketplace, gift cards would be a good thing to sell, especially the Amazon gift card:
http://www.btc4amazon.com/
http://www.itradebtc.com/

because it gives a way to buy a huge selection of products. Devcoin businesses can buy gift cards with bitcoins, and send them by email to customers, therefore avoiding fiat and shipping. Is anyone selling gift cards for devcoins already?

[Unthinkingbit]

I suggest redoubling the bounties which have not been awarded even in part.

What does "redoubling the bounties" mean? Do you mean multiplying them by 2?

Yup. For example the pool bounty used to be 16 shares, after the last doubling it became 32. With a redoubling, it would go to 64.

[ranlo]

I suggest redoubling the bounties which have not been awarded even in part. This would redouble the bounties for the forum, the Open Transactions Client (for Grandmas), the pool:
www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_bounty_now

and Emfox's link faucet upgrade. Any objections?

I think what we need more than any of those is some sort of marketplace... none of the things in the bounty area help give the currency some value, as they all still leave it with one use: trading in to BTC.

All of these things help indirectly. The forum would make it easier to communicate and organize projects, the Open Transactions Client would make it easier to trade cryptocurrencies and stocks, the pool would convert bitcoins to devcoins, and Emfox's link faucet upgrade would increase the popularity of devtome.

I agree that we should also have bounties for selling stuff in devcoins. For the marketplace, gift cards would be a good thing to sell, especially the Amazon gift card:
http://www.btc4amazon.com/
http://www.itradebtc.com/

because it gives a way to buy a huge selection of products. Devcoin businesses can buy gift cards with bitcoins, and send them by email to customers, therefore avoiding fiat and shipping. Is anyone selling gift cards for devcoins already?

But we have forums (devcointalk.org) and there are already MM pools (bitparking and a couple others)... I'm not following how increasing either of those will help considering they're already here, they just aren't being utilized as much as they should.

[Unthinkingbit]

..
But we have forums (devcointalk.org) and there are already MM pools (bitparking and a couple others)... I'm not following how increasing either of those will help considering they're already here, they just aren't being utilized as much as they should.

I want a forum which welcomes all cryptocurrencies, and is better in some way than existing forums, to encourage people to post there. There are already alt crypto forums, but because they're not better than what already exists, few people are posting there.

The pool bounty is for a pool which would pay out more devcoins than a merged mining pool because it would convert bitcoins to devcoins, and sends them to someone. Since it would sell bitcoins and buy devcoins, it would raise the price of devcoins in proportion to the gross take and in proportion to the how much people who receive devcoins hold them. For example, if the pool was as big as the original Mainframe Mining Cooperative:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24650.0

which at it's peak gave about 10 btc/month to developers, out of a total of then 200,000 btc/month generation, which today after block halving would be 5 btc/month. Assuming people receiving devcoins hold half, that would be a forced buying of 2.5 btc worth of devcoins per month.

[ranlo]

..
But we have forums (devcointalk.org) and there are already MM pools (bitparking and a couple others)... I'm not following how increasing either of those will help considering they're already here, they just aren't being utilized as much as they should.

I want a forum which welcomes all cryptocurrencies, and is better in some way than existing forums, to encourage people to post there. There are already alt crypto forums, but because they're not better than what already exists, few people are posting there.

The pool bounty is for a pool which would pay out more devcoins than a merged mining pool because it would convert bitcoins to devcoins, and sends them to someone. Since it would sell bitcoins and buy devcoins, it would raise the price of devcoins in proportion to the gross take and in proportion to the how much people who receive devcoins hold them. For example, if the pool was as big as the original Mainframe Mining Cooperative:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24650.0

which at it's peak gave about 10 btc/month to developers, out of a total of then 200,000 btc/month generation, which today after block halving would be 5 btc/month. Assuming people receiving devcoins hold half, that would be a forced buying of 2.5 btc worth of devcoins per month.

Ahh, I see what you mean now. I think the pool is an excellent idea for sure; as long as it's converting like it should. There is someone here with a beta pool up that does the opposite (mines alts and converts in to BTC to pay out) so it's definitely doable.

[sidhujag]

I'd like to toss out a thank-you to whoever is crashing DVC's prices. That's nice -- especially the person who sold out 20+ mil at once to the buy wall...

I really hope the prices start bouncing back. They're already down to below 70 SAT...

Its either coordinated by one person since the fontas pump at 200 or its the way price behaves on dvc. Usually when price sits on a wall too long you will see the wall get eaten up and price continues to sell.

This is what I said about knowing how to buy dvc
if you are a short term investor you do not place your entire order ina buy limit to try to get in at a better price. You should instigate a pump and follow through creating support along the way.

Wiser made a point that its irrelevant and it may be but at this point a series of pumps may be needed to get out of the basement. Thats how dvc price acts anyways... Havent seen a trial pump on dvc since i tried months ago.

[ranlo]

I'd like to toss out a thank-you to whoever is crashing DVC's prices. That's nice -- especially the person who sold out 20+ mil at once to the buy wall...

I really hope the prices start bouncing back. They're already down to below 70 SAT...

Its either coordinated by one person since the fontas pump at 200 or its the way price behaves on dvc. Usually when price sits on a wall too long you will see the wall get eaten up and price continues to sell.

This is what I said about knowing how to buy dvc
if you are a short term investor you do not place your entire order ina buy limit to try to get in at a better price. You should instigate a pump and follow through creating support along the way.

Wiser made a point that its irrelevant and it may be but at this point a series of pumps may be needed to get out of the basement. Thats how dvc price acts anyways... Havent seen a trial pump on dvc since i tried months ago.

So you mean it should bounce back?

[sidhujag]

I'd like to toss out a thank-you to whoever is crashing DVC's prices. That's nice -- especially the person who sold out 20+ mil at once to the buy wall...

I really hope the prices start bouncing back. They're already down to below 70 SAT...

Its either coordinated by one person since the fontas pump at 200 or its the way price behaves on dvc. Usually when price sits on a wall too long you will see the wall get eaten up and price continues to sell.

This is what I said about knowing how to buy dvc
if you are a short term investor you do not place your entire order ina buy limit to try to get in at a better price. You should instigate a pump and follow through creating support along the way.

Wiser made a point that its irrelevant and it may be but at this point a series of pumps may be needed to get out of the basement. Thats how dvc price acts anyways... Havent seen a trial pump on dvc since i tried months ago.

So you mean it should bounce back?

I have no doubt. I welcome the lower price and we probably will be lower for a while until the community can come up with something interesting to catch an eye. Its going to get harder and harder to get lower.

If there was a marketplace that would but in the end if you believe in the idea you stick by it and work towards the ultimate goal. I saw the value and the chart looks interesting so i stick with it.

[markm]

Well how many people have yet another 20 million to dump for a pittance?

At some point even 80,000 devtome words per cycle will be worth less than 20 million per cycle presumably even if it isn't already, so where are dumpers going to keep finding yet another 20 million to dump?

The entire minting is only enough for 9 such dumps a month, and if they continue to dump at lower and lower prices it is going to take less and less bitcoins to pick up each 20 million they dump.

I am sure someone will go like wow yet another 20 million devcoins for less than a bitcoin for the lot, sheesh why not, I'll take them...

Plus even though the dumping has started to make a dent in the prices shown in e.g. http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc notice that BTC rate is still at BTCrate=392005.28810379 there as I write, despite Vircurex showing offers of 1,470,588.23529412 per bitcoin (aka BTCrate=1470588.23529412).

Maybe if more people who use web based exchanges also used Torchat and I2P and various games and of course Open Transactions servers, arbitrage would close such gaps faster than has often been the case.

-MarkM-

[ranlo]

Well how many people have yet another 20 million to dump for a pittance?

At some point even 80,000 devtome words per cycle will be worth less than 20 million per cycle presumably even if it isn't already, so where are dumpers going to keep finding yet another 20 million to dump?

The entire minting is only enough for 9 such dumps a month, and if they continue to dump at lower and lower prices it is going to take less and less bitcoins to pick up each 20 million they dump.

I am sure someone will go like wow yet another 20 million devcoins for less than a bitcoin for the lot, sheesh why not, I'll take them...

Plus even though the dumping has started to make a dent in the prices shown in e.g. http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc notice that BTC rate is still at BTCrate=392005.28810379 there as I write, despite Vircurex showing offers of 1,470,588.23529412 per bitcoin (aka BTCrate=1470588.23529412).

Maybe if more people who use web based exchanges also used Torchat and I2P and various games and of course Open Transactions servers, arbitrage would close such gaps faster than has often been the case.

-MarkM-

Yeah, I really don't know what your numbers mean there... ex. what is the BTCrate? Where does it come from or how do we relate it to anything?

[sidhujag]

Well how many people have yet another 20 million to dump for a pittance?

At some point even 80,000 devtome words per cycle will be worth less than 20 million per cycle presumably even if it isn't already, so where are dumpers going to keep finding yet another 20 million to dump?

The entire minting is only enough for 9 such dumps a month, and if they continue to dump at lower and lower prices it is going to take less and less bitcoins to pick up each 20 million they dump.

I am sure someone will go like wow yet another 20 million devcoins for less than a bitcoin for the lot, sheesh why not, I'll take them...

Plus even though the dumping has started to make a dent in the prices shown in e.g. http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc notice that BTC rate is still at BTCrate=392005.28810379 there as I write, despite Vircurex showing offers of 1,470,588.23529412 per bitcoin (aka BTCrate=1470588.23529412).

Maybe if more people who use web based exchanges also used Torchat and I2P and various games and of course Open Transactions servers, arbitrage would close such gaps faster than has often been the case.

-MarkM-

So you mean that the price of dvc is 3x higher on that galaxies exchange than vircurex? Why wouldnt you just buy on vircurex and sell on galaxies for instant 3x gain?

[markm]

That latestrates file is intended for use by shell scripts and basically any script languages in which that simple syntax for assigning values to variables works.

One looks down the list to see which rate is equal to 1.00000000, in the case given you can see that is DVC (DeVCoins), indicating that whatever currency the rates (prices) are being shown in happens to be a currency in which devcoins are worth exactly 1.00000000, so its pretty obvious the prices shown are given in terms of devcoins.

Devcoin are convenient because they have more granularity than most (or maybe even more than any other) thus finer grained prices can be shown by pricing in devcoins than by pricing in, for example, bitcoins, number of decimals shown being equal.

So then, what we have there is the number of devcoins each of various other assets conversion rate is, aka what their price in devcoins is, ready for use in scripts.

The scripts they were originally set up for are market-maker scripts for Open Transactions, which would typically make offers at three different scales (lot sizes of 1, 10 and 100 coins, or lot sizes of 10, 100 and 1000 coins, or lot sizes of 100, 1000 and 10000 coins or even lot sizes of 1000, 10000 and 100000 coins (heck maybe even some pairs, like DVC/BTC might have used lot sizes of 10000, 100000 and 1000000 coins)).

The scripts would place offers in both ways round of the pair (e.g. BTC/DVC and DVC/BTC) at each scale (lot size), with higher markups for smaller scales than for lower scales, in order to facilitate buying wholesale to resell at retail kind of thing.

So basically the rates were intended for use like the rate charts tellers in banks used to look at when you wanted to buy or sell foreign currency at the bank; selling they'd sell with a slight markup, buying they'd buy at a slight discount. Thus only in pure abstract accounting would anyone normally/typically get the actual rates shown in this latestrates file.

As a concrete example consider a galactic mining operation that has debts denominated in devcoins and is delivering a fleetload of "deuterium" resource to a General Mining Corp depot.

General Mining Corp would offer some number of their own currency, GMC, for the resource. The miner says oh I want that applied against my debt, please. So the clerk uses a table that can be derived from that shown table simply by dividing all rates by GMCrate. That is, they use a table in which all rates are shown in terms of GMC, that is, a table in which GMCrate is the one shown as 1.00000000

So they can thus convert to any. In the case where the miner wants it applied against a devcoin-denominated debt obviously the latestrates we have already seen would have worked fine, since it already showed everything in terms of devcoins. I am merely trying to make it clear that by simple arithmetic one can from that table derive a table that gives all rates in terms of whichever one you prefer your rates to be denominated in, which in the case of GMCorp would probably be GMC.

Maybe even in pure abstract accounting ("unit of account") most moneygrubbing corps would do the extra work to apply a percentage service fee of some kind for the conversion. However historically it has often been the case, partly due to the fact that all assets on the Digitalis Open Transactions Server are integers, that miners doing such deliveries typically were not charged by percentage but the corp would simply do the rounding to integers in their own favour. (Presumably paying the clerk out of the rounding on the GMC side not out of some fraction of a devcoin of rounding on the devcoin side! )

-MarkM-

[ranlo]

//Stuff here

Thanks a lot for that explanation, . So where does the value of <400k DVC per BTC come from, when the value has been above a million for quite some time?

[sidhujag]

what creates a rise in price is scarcity. Demand over supply. I see the case for it as more and more ppl are writing the % of those selling ppl who earn falls and creates an incentive for price to rise. As more stuff gets published real value is applied to the project and you see a recipe for growth. When people start getting involved in the bounties as price is rising or is stable you can see how it would blossom. Its wishful thinking probably but
I see that the fact that the 80k word dumpers we have recently will not have so much selling power as time goes on.

If writers drop off then price would probably follow.

[markm]

So you mean that the price of dvc is 3x higher on that galaxies exchange than vircurex? Why wouldnt you just buy on vircurex and sell on galaxies for instant 3x gain?

Well I think the players might consider it kind of sleazy, a kind of in game equivalent of "insider trading", for me to do that; as a dungeonmaster or gamemaster or server operator or game operator or whatever maybe leaving it up to the players to play those parts of "the game" might seem more-appropriate behaviour.

As to why e.g you don't, that might be something that you know better than others do?

Similarly for each player and for each person who happens not to be a player, their own reasons for not doing so are maybe best known by them.

(Don't know how or didn't realise the situation existed are likely very common reasons though, both among non-players and among players who happen not to be traders on the markets bitcointalk people are most-familiar with.)

-MarkM-

[markm]

//Stuff here

So where does the value of <400k DVC per BTC come from, when the value has been above a million for quite some time?

Yeah I ask myself that too. I used to go through bouts of paranoia a lot that some bug in some script somewhere was making the entire edifice of valuation stuff totally out of whack somewhere.

Presumably though it is a simple and pretty direct consequence of who-ever usually took care of arbitraging that pair across those exchanges or families/collections of exchanges was on vacation or something. Like maybe there aren't really a whole lot of Vircurex BTC/DVC / Vircurex DVC/BTC folk active regularly who also regularly keep in touch with Galactic Milieu players who are interested in BTC or DVC.

Like really only General Financial Corp, General Mining Corp and General Retirement Funds encounter DVC much in the course of play, so only their staff or maybe the miners who sell to GMC or GRF who also have devcoin-denominated loans from GFC have any reason to maybe even pay much attention to the fact that such things as devcoins even exist, let alone such things as bitcoins (like what do bitcoins have to do with anything, really? The "Hacker" nation purported to use bitcoins as its national currency is widely regarded as a mythical civilisation the Martians invented so as to pretend the Martians didn't invent blockchain technology but actually got it from someone else...)

-MarkM-

[hennessyhemp]

I don't really know much about charts...but from the looks of DVC on Cryptocoincharts...we may have just touched the bottom.  I hope that you are correct in thinking the big sellers have all been left with far less DVC...and we can return to massive gains on a very cool coin project, that could very much shape the future of many other bitcoin related projects. 

I do own a little, so it's in my best interest for it to rise...but seriously, I like the looks of the chart...last time we were about here there was a massive spike in value.

[best_btc]

If we all just took 5 min a day to write and request mtgox, btc-e, and all the rest where there is no DVC yet, to add it, it could really make a difference. really more then just sitting anxious and hoping for the price to rise from doing nothing.
Write them NOW!
I wrote already to BTC-e support to add DVC (again). you all should write them too, let our voices be heard:
http://hdbtce.kayako.com/
and also Mtgox:
https://support.mtgox.com/home
https://twitter.com/MtGox