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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 865120 times)
RickJamesBTC
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January 19, 2014, 05:00:20 PM
 #7401

Why you gotta quote me to make your point, now my quote is going to get bounced around as your post gets quoted and mocked, when I made valid points! You know exactly why people have a lot of problems with this refund policy, as there is quite a lot of evidence that shows hashfast promised to return btc paid if they failed to deliver. They have failed to deliver, and mailing checks in some random amount is not akin to offering a complete refund. The customer isn't made whole. I agree, and I've called people out on it before, that there are a few hypocrits who only want btc refunds when they come up in the situation, vs usd refunds when btc is down. However, the responsibility to make the customer whole lies with hf, and any company which lies to, abuses, and steals from its customers while making false or deceitful statements should be attacked with lawsuits and bad press. The only way to keep more scum companies from taking loans from customers without warning, failing to ship products for months or years, is to make it painful for a company that tries.
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cedivad
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January 19, 2014, 05:06:23 PM
 #7402

But hf would be bouncing off the walls if they shipped anything, and not forcing people into refunds...
This is why that post doesn't make any sense imho.

I was thinking that they would have waited until the 25th of this month and ship the whole first and second batch in one day, in order to maximise the number of cashed checks to lower their legal liabilities, spreading fear trough their silence on the forums in the meanwhile.

But it naturally conflicts with what happend. It's also true that if it wasn't for Google, no one would have read that post. It's an interesting element, that's for sure.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
Airwhale
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January 19, 2014, 05:45:45 PM
 #7403

Hmm, heavily cropped images, shil account. Anyone seen a picture like that of bjs though? The content doesn't look photoshopped together, not with the USB drives on top... But hf would be bouncing off the walls if they shipped anything, and not forcing people into refunds...

Not on  a retail sale preorder. Also, nobody signed that right away. They had an obligation to notify customers of the delay and offer refunds if requested, not put their own limits on those refunds. Read the FTC rules quoted oh so many times in this thread.

So which is it?  Forced Refunds or the The Law (tm)?  You can't have it both ways. Stop being a hypocrite.*


* Not just directed at RickJamesBTC, but everyone else who is picking and choosing to call it "Forced Refunds" when it suits your complaint and "The Law" when it doesn't.




I'm not a Hashfast customer, so maybe I'm not following this as closely as you, Josh.  But the CEO of Hashfast made a promise that refunds would be in BTC,  or at least heavily implied it so that any reasonable person (or judge) would interpret that to be true.  So people want their refunds according to the terms that Hashfast set.  So it seems reasonable that the people who ordered from Hashfast would want their BTC back,  or else to hold Hashfast libel under tort law.  To give refunds back in USD and not BTC is misrepresentation.

I don't see any inconsistencies or hypocrisy here?
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January 19, 2014, 07:47:09 PM
 #7404

Ok, i'm gonna give it a try.

Josh, did people who ordered paying with USD received a letter with a refund check?
Why the answer is not, and why it instead happened with people who ordered paying with BTC, regardless of whatever they asked for a refund or not?

Any clue?

I have no idea what is going on inside Hashfast or what it all means.  I'm simply pointing out the complete hypocracy of a large majority of this thread and calling for an end to it. (haha yeah like that'll happen!) Be consistent and logical when you pose your arguments.  Posing these contradictory arguments for and against something only undermine your case. A lawyer would have no problem digging up all this useless blabber and using it in a defense against Hashfast to show that the plaintiffs are nothing but immature temper tantrum throwers.

Quote
Why you gotta quote me to make your point, now my quote is going to get bounced around as your post gets quoted and mocked, when I made valid points! You know exactly why people have a lot of problems with this refund policy, as there is quite a lot of evidence that shows hashfast promised to return btc paid if they failed to deliver. They have failed to deliver, and mailing checks in some random amount is not akin to offering a complete refund. The customer isn't made whole. I agree, and I've called people out on it before, that there are a few hypocrits who only want btc refunds when they come up in the situation, vs usd refunds when btc is down. However, the responsibility to make the customer whole lies with hf, and any company which lies to, abuses, and steals from its customers while making false or deceitful statements should be attacked with lawsuits and bad press. The only way to keep more scum companies from taking loans from customers without warning, failing to ship products for months or years, is to make it painful for a company that tries.

You haven't made any valid points with regards to you (and those following your same flawed logic) being a hypocrite.  You claim on one day it's required by the FTC and then the next day claim it's a "Force Refund" like it was against your will. 

BFL had to deal with this and I find it exceptionally egregious, but up until now, I had no solid case evidence for the hypocritical nature of the whiners and complainers... now I do.  BFL offered full refunds without question up until we started shipping. At that time, we forced everyone to either opt-in, by having to login to their account, read the agreement and then click that they accept the agreement that there would be no further refunds... If they failed to do so or disagreed, they would be given a refund.  After more than a month (almost two!), we stopped refunds.  Now BFL is villified for not giving refunds, even though we offered them unconditionally for months and then forced people to agree to no refunds before their order would proceed.  So now we have people screaming and crying about the FTC regulations (which they obviously don't understand, but we'll leave that for a different discussion.) and how BFL is required to give refunds.  Now we have Hashfast, who is forcing those self same refunds on people and people are crying and screaming about Forced Refunds.

This just demonstrates that it was absolutely, unequivocally the right decision by BFL on how we handled the situation. 

TL;DR: No matter what a company does, there will always be the whiners and criers about how it's done... that being said, it's best to do what's good for the continued existence of the company. If you're going to have to deal with the disgruntled people no matter what, then keep the company a float so you can handle the problems instead of going out of business trying to satisfy the unsatisfiable.  I believe that's what might be happening with Hashfast right now - they are doing the best they can in a really crappy situation.  Maybe I'm completely off base and incorrect about it, but having been on both sides of the equation now, that's what it looks like to me.  But that is purely my opinion.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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January 19, 2014, 07:50:30 PM
 #7405

A lawyer would have no problem digging up all this useless blabber and using it in a defense against Hashfast to show that the plaintiffs are nothing but immature temper tantrum throwers.
I love this guy. You really can't answer without contradicting yourself in the same phrase, can you?

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
Hoofprint
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January 19, 2014, 08:00:09 PM
 #7406

Ok, i'm gonna give it a try.

Josh, did people who ordered paying with USD received a letter with a refund check?
Why the answer is not, and why it instead happened with people who ordered paying with BTC, regardless of whatever they asked for a refund or not?

Any clue?

I have no idea what is going on inside Hashfast or what it all means.  I'm simply pointing out the complete hypocracy of a large majority of this thread and calling for an end to it. (haha yeah like that'll happen!) Be consistent and logical when you pose your arguments.  Posing these contradictory arguments for and against something only undermine your case. A lawyer would have no problem digging up all this useless blabber and using it in a defense against Hashfast to show that the plaintiffs are nothing but immature temper tantrum throwers.

Quote
Why you gotta quote me to make your point, now my quote is going to get bounced around as your post gets quoted and mocked, when I made valid points! You know exactly why people have a lot of problems with this refund policy, as there is quite a lot of evidence that shows hashfast promised to return btc paid if they failed to deliver. They have failed to deliver, and mailing checks in some random amount is not akin to offering a complete refund. The customer isn't made whole. I agree, and I've called people out on it before, that there are a few hypocrits who only want btc refunds when they come up in the situation, vs usd refunds when btc is down. However, the responsibility to make the customer whole lies with hf, and any company which lies to, abuses, and steals from its customers while making false or deceitful statements should be attacked with lawsuits and bad press. The only way to keep more scum companies from taking loans from customers without warning, failing to ship products for months or years, is to make it painful for a company that tries.


You haven't made any valid points with regards to you (and those following your same flawed logic) being a hypocrite.  You claim on one day it's required by the FTC and then the next day claim it's a "Force Refund" like it was against your will. 

BFL had to deal with this and I find it exceptionally egregious, but up until now, I had no solid case evidence for the hypocritical nature of the whiners and complainers... now I do.  BFL offered full refunds without question up until we started shipping. At that time, we forced everyone to either opt-in, by having to login to their account, read the agreement and then click that they accept the agreement that there would be no further refunds... If they failed to do so or disagreed, they would be given a refund.  After more than a month (almost two!), we stopped refunds.  Now BFL is villified for not giving refunds, even though we offered them unconditionally for months and then forced people to agree to no refunds before their order would proceed.  So now we have people screaming and crying about the FTC regulations (which they obviously don't understand, but we'll leave that for a different discussion.) and how BFL is required to give refunds.  Now we have Hashfast, who is forcing those self same refunds on people and people are crying and screaming about Forced Refunds.

This just demonstrates that it was absolutely, unequivocally the right decision by BFL on how we handled the situation. 

TL;DR: No matter what a company does, there will always be the whiners and criers about how it's done... that being said, it's best to do what's good for the continued existence of the company. If you're going to have to deal with the disgruntled people no matter what, then keep the company a float so you can handle the problems instead of going out of business trying to satisfy the unsatisfiable.  I believe that's what might be happening with Hashfast right now - they are doing the best they can in a really crappy situation.  Maybe I'm completely off base and incorrect about it, but having been on both sides of the equation now, that's what it looks like to me.  But that is purely my opinion.


Im rather curious josh. when your sucking off Castro do you let Skrodenis join in for a circle jerk.

the question i put to the rest of the community,
Scamfast has lied on most every point so far,
what are the chances they could charge back the checks those that would cash them.
Or decide the MMP will be based of the current BTC rate instead or the original order date like they promised

MT GOX, WE.exchange (WE.Scam), BFL (Brutally Fkn Last), Hashfast (ScamFast), IceDrill (Licedrill),
No wonder the governments don't like Bitcoin with all these parasites
minternj
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January 19, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
 #7407

Interesting picture. Wondering why there is blue cat5 cable going to the top but not connecting into anything.

Also why the front panels are hinged in opposite directions. That case doesn't hinge the front panel in that fashion. That case is definitely a corsair case, and the front panel doesn't hinge like that at all. Its more of a clip in panel that rests on the bottom. (not exact same case but panels should clip in the same)
See - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES2Z3jn5pgg&t=1m0s .

Maybe it's icebreakers, lol.

Warning about Nitrogensports.eu
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709114.0
PuertoLibre
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January 19, 2014, 08:24:01 PM
 #7408

Quote
Quote from: Cypherdoc
once you see details of their Miner Protection Plan and refund details all your fears will melt away.

Our groups fears were warranted in terms of considering any outlay of 100's of thousands of $'s for GN chips given what has happened. I feel awful another company has seen fit to soil the community yet again in this way. No company can recover from this sort of subterfuge and expect to be trusted. Paying people to bump threads... not a good idea and not worth your own reputation when it goes sideways.
Not just to bump threads, but to shill for the company.

Paid shilling.

Mods, is that against forum rules?

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ninjarobot
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January 19, 2014, 08:33:19 PM
 #7409

TL;DR: No matter what a company does, there will always be the whiners and criers about how it's done... that being said, it's best to do what's good for the continued existence of the company.

That is exactly the problem. HF is doing what is good for HF, not for their customers. They retroactively rewrite the rules of their own game to suit their needs. Offsetting risk and losses from the company to the customer. That might be acceptable if we were investors or 'backers'. But we are not.

If you're going to have to deal with the disgruntled people no matter what, then keep the company a float so you can handle the problems instead of going out of business trying to satisfy the unsatisfiable.

You use heavily biased words like whiners, criers, unsatisfiable... But all people are asking is for HF to live up to their own promises. Nobody is asking for more than they put in. Customers will be happy to break even or take modest losses at this point. I would not call that unreasonable or unsatisfiable.

I believe that's what might be happening with Hashfast right now - they are doing the best they can in a really crappy situation.

This situation is entirely of their own making. Selectively forcing USD refunds on their earliest BTC customers while not communicating is not what I call doing 'the best they can'.

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January 19, 2014, 08:38:11 PM
 #7410

This situation is entirely of their own making. Selectively forcing USD refunds on their earliest BTC customers while not communicating is not what I call doing 'the best they can'.
And it is not, but you can get a feeling of what their arguments will be. They could work with BFL, but HF screwed it up so badly that they don't really stand a chance. They know it.

Want to prove me wrong? Release the contracts with TSMC and show me how many chips you have in stock right now and how you have used them. You won't, because it would be admitting guilty more than what you already did, but that doesn't mean that i can't force you to do so.

What Josh is doing is simply confusing the ignorant, but it won't work, given the load of proofs we will have against them to make the ignorant aware of all of their behaviours.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
RickJamesBTC
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January 19, 2014, 09:10:33 PM
 #7411

Ok, i'm gonna give it a try.

Josh, did people who ordered paying with USD received a letter with a refund check?
Why the answer is not, and why it instead happened with people who ordered paying with BTC, regardless of whatever they asked for a refund or not?

Any clue?

I have no idea what is going on inside Hashfast or what it all means.  I'm simply pointing out the complete hypocracy of a large majority of this thread and calling for an end to it. (haha yeah like that'll happen!) Be consistent and logical when you pose your arguments.  Posing these contradictory arguments for and against something only undermine your case. A lawyer would have no problem digging up all this useless blabber and using it in a defense against Hashfast to show that the plaintiffs are nothing but immature temper tantrum throwers.

Quote
Why you gotta quote me to make your point, now my quote is going to get bounced around as your post gets quoted and mocked, when I made valid points! You know exactly why people have a lot of problems with this refund policy, as there is quite a lot of evidence that shows hashfast promised to return btc paid if they failed to deliver. They have failed to deliver, and mailing checks in some random amount is not akin to offering a complete refund. The customer isn't made whole. I agree, and I've called people out on it before, that there are a few hypocrits who only want btc refunds when they come up in the situation, vs usd refunds when btc is down. However, the responsibility to make the customer whole lies with hf, and any company which lies to, abuses, and steals from its customers while making false or deceitful statements should be attacked with lawsuits and bad press. The only way to keep more scum companies from taking loans from customers without warning, failing to ship products for months or years, is to make it painful for a company that tries.

You haven't made any valid points with regards to you (and those following your same flawed logic) being a hypocrite.  You claim on one day it's required by the FTC and then the next day claim it's a "Force Refund" like it was against your will. 

BFL had to deal with this and I find it exceptionally egregious, but up until now, I had no solid case evidence for the hypocritical nature of the whiners and complainers... now I do.  BFL offered full refunds without question up until we started shipping. At that time, we forced everyone to either opt-in, by having to login to their account, read the agreement and then click that they accept the agreement that there would be no further refunds... If they failed to do so or disagreed, they would be given a refund.  After more than a month (almost two!), we stopped refunds.  Now BFL is villified for not giving refunds, even though we offered them unconditionally for months and then forced people to agree to no refunds before their order would proceed.  So now we have people screaming and crying about the FTC regulations (which they obviously don't understand, but we'll leave that for a different discussion.) and how BFL is required to give refunds.  Now we have Hashfast, who is forcing those self same refunds on people and people are crying and screaming about Forced Refunds.

This just demonstrates that it was absolutely, unequivocally the right decision by BFL on how we handled the situation. 

TL;DR: No matter what a company does, there will always be the whiners and criers about how it's done... that being said, it's best to do what's good for the continued existence of the company. If you're going to have to deal with the disgruntled people no matter what, then keep the company a float so you can handle the problems instead of going out of business trying to satisfy the unsatisfiable.  I believe that's what might be happening with Hashfast right now - they are doing the best they can in a really crappy situation.  Maybe I'm completely off base and incorrect about it, but having been on both sides of the equation now, that's what it looks like to me.  But that is purely my opinion.


You really shouldn't call me a hypocrite. I'm not a customer of either company. I do understand the FTC regulations. None of that matters, hashfast made clear and specific offers to a shipping date, refund method and btc refund amount. They then changed those terms later, and now they are just making arbitrary decisions as to which customers they offer a refund to, which customers they just send a refund to without asking, and which customers they just have no communications with at all.

Somehow you are too stupid to understand the difference between wanting a refund as originally promised, and the offensive checks being sent out to some customers. I'm not sure what you offered to your customers in terms of refunds, but since nobody here thinks of BFL as anything more than a joke, it probably wasn't good. There was likely a lot of greed involved, on both sides. Customers wanted these magic money printers that they ordered a year prior, and BFL wanted to keep all the money and eventually ship something, timelines be damned.

Once KNC shipped all the orders they got within a few days of the promised timeline, customers saw that there could be a better way. Now the people who ordered with hashfast instead of KNC because hashfast made SO MANY promises are screwed. They will never get the machines, or the money they actually spent to purchase them.

Your business practices and communication skills speak for themselves, poorly. Watching you call your own customers names because of your failures to meet shipping deadlines time and again is just sad. Now you have become a troll, trying to complain about customers of another company with failed deadlines and promises, on a forum that you have repeatedly called garbage.
You don't want to be here, and nobody here wants to hear from you. Why are you still posting?
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January 19, 2014, 09:24:52 PM
 #7412

The mistake here was that HF wrote in an email that they would refund the same amount of BTC that was paid.  BFL never made that mistake - otherwise lots of parallels can be drawn, both companies have had issues with their manufacturing process, both companies are trying their hardest to get products to customers as fast as possible, and both companies are not malicious, just suffering major setbacks beyond their control, and not being as communicative as they could be.

Will

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January 19, 2014, 10:41:09 PM
 #7413

From the Cointerra thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg4603400#msg4603400

Well since you have so much extra 'access' why don't you tell us wtf is going on over there, and if you're such  big buyer i don't know why you're acting so cool and collected about this and defending them, you should be more angry than anyone on this forum.

put this into context.  i ordered a lot of hashfast systems and they're more than 3 months late(!)  and I'm not angry at them either.  Sure, I'm negotiating with them - in good faith - as to what happens now, as i feel I've overpaid with my order compared to when I'm going to receive it.  i paid a lot more, per gh for my hashfast systems than i did for my cointerra systems on the basis that the hashfast ones were sposed to arrive 2-3 months ahead of the cointerra ones.  Cointerra by comparison was a bargain - especially now that it looks like they both could ship in the same few week window, yet one was significantly cheaper than the other.  had hashfast delivered in october, that too would've been well priced... and it was on that basis that i ordered from them.

I'm definitely not angry at cointerra as they're not even late yet... and I'm still hopeful that the january batch will ship in january - they still have two weeks left (to start shipping, at least).  if it slips into february i won't be angry at them either.. as thats part of the deal i signed up to.  if they delay til march or april, i will probably start to get more anxious!  but angry... no, not ever!

if i was ordering new equipment, NOW, i couldn't get it in the same timeframe, at a similar price.

btw, if anyone does want to cancel their batch 1 hashfast or batch 1 cointerra, let me know... as i might want to buy it !  i can't buy anything cheaper in that delivery timeframe.


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January 19, 2014, 11:34:40 PM
 #7414

As an impartial observer in this situation, I'm seeing lots of contributors turning against one another over a problem that's been caused by a third party not delivering what they promised. To make matters even more confusing, a senior employee of another supplier is trying in his own way to bring a sense of reality to proceedings and possibly to help people come to terms with the situation.

I've been discussing this ongoing show with a friend of mine who's a QC (Queens Counsel or Barrister - basically a very senior lawyer who has a Right Of Audience in the highest courts in the UK) and sometimes stand-in judge, particularly over the T&C's of Hashfast and the thorny subject of refunds. Now, the first thing to recognise here is that American and UK contract and consumer law are not the same, however they are similar enough that a judge in either jurisdiction could make sense of and rule on the terms of a contract. The exceptions are the notion of 'class actions' which are not (usually) recognised in UK law, and 'fair terms and conditions' in UK consumer law which does'nt seem to have a parallel in the US.

I don't intend to bore you with the details but he had some very interesting observations.

The first and most important one was that his was not a normal sales agreement - it was more akin to a 'futures' contract for delivery of a piece of electronic equipment at a fixed price at some future time. When buyers agree to purchase the contract, it was - by the nature of the equipment and it's application - fully understood by the buyer that the equipment did not as yet exist and would only do so if sufficient buyers purchased contracts to fund it's development and manufacture. You might at this stage argue that people preorder new model BMW's or Iphones, but in these cases the development and manufacturing costs have already been met by those suppliers. It is also clear that the buyers knew that there was a risk that things might not go right, and were willing to accept that risk in return for a possible future commercial advantage.

Where this gets muddy is not in what was purchased, but rather what would happen if Hashfast failed to deliver the equipment, especially with their MPP where they are unable to supply the promised additional chips to make up for lost hashing power. I couldn't find an original copy of the original Hashfast T&C's but the current ones clearly distance Hashfast from any consequential damages from their non-delivery and limit liability to the purchase price only. For the original equipment, this would be the most likely ruling from judges on both side of the atlantic, ie neither party would gain or lose any benefit. For the MPP it's a lot more complex, but basically it's another 'futures' contract although in this case the damages could be quantified in terms of lost BTC's -regardless of whether a court accepts that they are legal currency- if Hashfast cannot deliver the missing chips. It seems they haven't built in an escape clause for that eventuality, and it may be their undoing.

Had Hashfast been contracted by a third party to build rigs for them and them  only, the contract would no doubt have included T&C's from the buyer about consequential damages or remedies in the event of non performance by Hashfast. With regards to the thorny question of refunds in BTC, my friend pointed out that Hashfast advertised products for sale in US$ OR Bitcoins, so there was a clear equivocacy between the two. It would be entirely reasonable for an 'average person' to know that being a US based company, Hashfast would pay for it's supplies and services in US dollars, and sell products for said. The fact that it was willing to accept a token of value, ie Bitcoins does not dilute this and a buyer would be under no illusions that Hashfast operated in US dollars and would have to exchange Bitcoins for said to function normally. Following on from this, it is reasonable for Hashfast to refund in US dollars. Courts in the US or UK would both rule this normal and reasonable. The fact that people might prefer BTC would not come into it, Any loss claimed by a buyer because of the rise in Bitcoins value would be swept aside - they would be no worse off with a US diollar refund now that they were when they made the purchase, and for the reasons cited above, neither (under normal circumstances) would Hashfast. Whether or not they promised refunds in Bitcoins is a moot point. If the value of Bitcoin had bombed, you wouldn't mind getting refunded in $US -that's what a judge would say.

This might not be what many of you want to hear, but it's what the end result of a court hearing is likely to bring. Hashfast can't 'force' you to take a refund but a refund is their only remedy if they can't deliver their side of the bargain. If they are refunding you or terminating the contract for convenience, then that's a whole different matter and ventures on fraud, although it would be extremely difficult to prove. You might be able to track what happened to your Bitcoins, ie did they go to an exchange when or soon after you paid, but even if they didn't it wouldn't prove Hashfast was acting in any way fraudulently.

So where do you go from here?

Well, it would help if you stop attacking one another and focus oh the real source of the problem. I don't know to what extent Hashfast are or aren't communicating, but at the risk of getting hundreds of abusive posts, might I make a suggestion?

Josh is a very prominent member of the Bitcoin community and, love him or hate him, he is an important part of a leading rig supplier. He has continued to post in this thread despite the abuse he gets, and there is some sense in what he says about the development process and things that can (and do) go wrong and some buyers attitudes. I'm sure from an entirely pragmatic perspective he doesn't want Hashfast to crash; competitor or not, it's not good for business.

If asked, he might be willing to try to talk to the Hashfast management, if only to try to get them to communicate with their buyers. He has a much better chance of doing so than any of you. I know it's not how these things normally work, but both companies and Hashfast's customers could stand to gain from a bit of pragmatism.

How about it, Josh?

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January 19, 2014, 11:58:46 PM
 #7415

Something tells me that there's a flaw or two in this Modest Proposal.

As to being pragmatic, I thought my entreaties several weeks ago to collectively engage Hashfast in a compensation discussion (via the MPP, not refunds, forced, BTC, USD, or otherwise) were rather reasonable suggestions.  Others did not agree.
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January 20, 2014, 12:10:07 AM
 #7416

As an impartial observer in this situation,....

Thank you! Great post!

1.) You can find several ToS-versions here: http://hashfast.org/Terms_of_Sale
     Maybe your friend can have a peek at them.

2.) One question that i would like to ask your friend:

     Given the precondition that they have sorted out their problems and producing now full scale. Whats the legal situation if they decided to force refunds all of their customers just to either mine themselves with those miners or to sell them again at higher prices in their webshop?
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January 20, 2014, 12:30:12 AM
 #7417

That is exactly the problem. HF is doing what is good for HF, not for their customers. They retroactively rewrite the rules of their own game to suit their needs. Offsetting risk and losses from the company to the customer. That might be acceptable if we were investors or 'backers'. But we are not.

Ok, so lets consider for a moment if Hashfast did not do what was good for Hashfast... Hashfast refunds the BTC at the current rate, presumably having to purchase them off the open market. Where does that money come from?  They probably don't have it, as it's already been spent on development... but lets say they do have the cash to purchase at least some of the BTC back.  They exhaust all of their cash to do this and issue as many refunds as they can.  Now they have zero cash to continue operations (people don't generally work for free and suppliers sure as hell don't give away product for free), have not paid back everyone and are forced to go out of business. 

The end result of your solution: Some people get paid back, others get nothing. No one gets hardware.

At least to me, that sounds like a much worse solution than everyone at least getting your hardware, even if it is late.  If I were a customer, I'd rather have guaranteed late hardware than a crapshoot of a 1 in ten chance of a refund or nothing.  Maybe you have a different opinion.


Quote
You use heavily biased words like whiners, criers, unsatisfiable... But all people are asking is for HF to live up to their own promises. Nobody is asking for more than they put in. Customers will be happy to break even or take modest losses at this point. I would not call that unreasonable or unsatisfiable.

No... lots of people are calling for a BTC for BTC refund. Rightly or wrongly on Hashfasts part for agreeing to that (or not, depending on your interpretation), it's simply unlikley to be practical and you have the above outlined scenario.  If people were solely asking for USD refund, then I might in principal agree with you, but do I really have to quote the numerous people asking for BTC for BTC refunds?

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This situation is entirely of their own making. Selectively forcing USD refunds on their earliest BTC customers while not communicating is not what I call doing 'the best they can'.

Is it though? How do you know? From my own experience, I would say it's not.  Maybe it is, though and you have some inside knowledge I do not have.  Again, from personal experience, sharing too much information incites a whole different class of complaints and problems than not sharing enough... it's a very, very fine line and very easy to miss that line when communicating with this forum... and in fact, I personally think there is no happy medium, which is why I've stopped giving a crap what people here think.  I personally don't think it's possible to satisfy the forum denizens here and until the forum trolls are subdued by the moderators, it's why this forum is complete garbage and nothing important gets done here with regards to hardware.

As an impartial observer in this situation,

If asked, he might be willing to try to talk to the Hashfast management, if only to try to get them to communicate with their buyers. He has a much better chance of doing so than any of you. I know it's not how these things normally work, but both companies and Hashfast's customers could stand to gain from a bit of pragmatism.

How about it, Josh?

Wow, that is a truly intelligent and cogent post and probably pretty accurate given the US legal system.  Thank you for taking the time to make it. 

As far as the request goes, I doubt anyone here would listen to anything I would gain information wise, since it would likely contradict their own personal biases and the crusade née witch-hunt that is going on right now.  Very few people here want to hear the truth, they just want their beliefs confirmed and the truth be damned.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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January 20, 2014, 12:44:39 AM
 #7418

I have no idea what is going on inside Hashfast or what it all means.  I'm simply pointing out the complete hypocracy of a large majority of this thread and calling for an end to it. (haha yeah like that'll happen!) Be consistent and logical when you pose your arguments.  Posing these contradictory arguments for and against something only undermine your case. A lawyer would have no problem digging up all this useless blabber and using it in a defense against Hashfast to show that the plaintiffs are nothing but immature temper tantrum throwers.

In order to introduce it into evidence in court, at lawyer would would need to actually get the poster to show up and take the stand, otherwise it would be inadmissible as hearsay.

Also, holy crap you are stupid.

Ok, so lets consider for a moment if Hashfast did not do what was good for Hashfast... Hashfast refunds the BTC at the current rate, presumably having to purchase them off the open market. Where does that money come from?  They probably don't have it, as it's already been spent on development... but lets say they do have the cash to purchase at least some of the BTC back.  They exhaust all of their cash to do this and issue as many refunds as they can.  Now they have zero cash to continue operations (people don't generally work for free and suppliers sure as hell don't give away product for free), have not paid back everyone and are forced to go out of business.  

Yes, that's the ideal situation for customers.  Hashfast goes out of business, and customers get the maximum amount of money returned as possible. Also, it's unlikely they spent all of their BTC on development. Their chip was already worked up before they even started taking orders.

The alternative is the option you took, which is to keep the money and deliver months late crap that will never ROI. People don't want "hardware" they want hardware that will actually make more bitcoins then it cost them.  It's the option where you keep all the money and the marks "customers" get nothing of value.

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January 20, 2014, 12:50:23 AM
 #7419

Ok, so lets consider for a moment if Hashfast did not do what was good for Hashfast... Hashfast refunds the BTC at the current rate, presumably having to purchase them off the open market. Where does that money come from?  They probably don't have it, as it's already been spent on development... but lets say they do have the cash to purchase at least some of the BTC back.  They exhaust all of their cash to do this and issue as many refunds as they can.  Now they have zero cash to continue operations (people don't generally work for free and suppliers sure as hell don't give away product for free), have not paid back everyone and are forced to go out of business. 

The end result of your solution: Some people get paid back, others get nothing. No one gets hardware.

At least to me, that sounds like a much worse solution than everyone at least getting your hardware, even if it is late.  If I were a customer, I'd rather have guaranteed late hardware than a crapshoot of a 1 in ten chance of a refund or nothing.  Maybe you have a different opinion.

How do YOU of all people, don't get that their problem isn't with their actions. It's with their communications.

If they kept communicating honestly every few days saying where the real problems are, when we can expect hardware, upgrade kits, MPP etc. there would be much less people asking for refunds, and they would be able to pay the rest out even at current rates.  After all, only a small percentage of people actually paid with BTC, right? (According to THEIR communications.)
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January 20, 2014, 12:55:05 AM
 #7420


Wow, that is a truly intelligent and cogent post and probably pretty accurate given the US legal system.  Thank you for taking the time to make it. 

As far as the request goes, I doubt anyone here would listen to anything I would gain information wise, since it would likely contradict their own personal biases and the crusade née witch-hunt that is going on right now.  Very few people here want to hear the truth, they just want their beliefs confirmed and the truth be damned.

I just would like to know if they already started the bulk production? And if not, what's the reason why they can't do it?
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