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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 865263 times)
Gandalfs Mentor
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January 15, 2014, 04:27:14 AM
 #7081

Batch 1, Paid BTC, Canadian, and received an unsolicited USD refund cheque today.
Are you going to cash it?

I don't think he has a choice.

They're really fucking us over.
Typically a bank draft (Check) of which one is attempting to buy another off, in the case of a settlement, will be a 'Conditional Draft' (should have something on it to the effect of 'For payment of refund in full')
Cashing one of these types of checks will be viewed by the courts as an accepted settlement; a draft is a signed contract.

The flip side is if you did  not request a refund, specifically have not provided them with any signed documentation to that effect and paid in bitcoins, then they just sent you a check...

Personally, I would cash it, then demand a refund of my BTC as per contract.  If their accountant goofed and sent you a check in error, then they need to get a refund from you.

Does not your contract state to be reimbursed in BTC?
That would be fraud. You would have to first check with the letter as to what the intent is behind the check.

Two wrongs don't make a right and certainly don't strengthen anyones case.

Please qualify your statement, define where in what I stated you believe is fraud-

And you are correct, two wrongs do not make a right.  A 5% refund in lew of a contract is not right.  As stated if the draft itself is not conditional, specifically stating it is for a refund, then it is the same thing as them handing you cash.  What ever toilet paper came with it in the envelope doesn't matter.  Just don't sign your rights away.

Further I always recommend consultation with a qualified professionally licensed individual.

To Me it sounds like they may have just royally screwed themselves and sent you guys a whole bunch of money to pay your Attorney with to get your BTC back... Wouldn't that be ironic  Shocked
It says it right there in black and white.

This is for a refund you requested.
It does not say "...this is part of your refund. (1 of 10)"

If you cash it, you are signifying you accept their payment + 5%.

============================

Gandalf, if they weren't worried about the legal stuff they wouldn't offer you 5% for free. They are giving you 5% on top of the value of the miner as a settlement.

If they had only given you the cost of the miner and no 5% it would have been clear they were playing hardball. They are instead just seemingly playing "dead possum" and hoping (to the love of God) that their customers are stupid enough to accept their 5% (which is actually almost -90% by the way).

If things go tits up and everyone decided to pursue other options, then HashFast is almost certainly done for. (Unless they can find 10 times their capital)

Batch 2 through 4 can kiss their own asses goodbye as a result.

People are either going to live up to HashFasts [I speculate] expectations, or they will be smarter than that.


============================

Accepting a check with a written notice as to what is for is not arbitration. You don't get to "invent" what you think the check is for. It is clearly spelled out what it is for. If you stand there in front of the judge stating your own arbitrary ideas and concepts about what the check was for and thought of using their own settlement money to persue a resolved dispute which you accepted....well...don't be surprised if you are laughed out of court.

You're not Dumb or Blonde Gandalf, so stop trying to lure idiots into the fire.
Just because tensions are high don't shoot the messenger or think for a moment I don't know thoroughly of that which I am speaking. I have previously reviewed all documentation you provided.

The individuals doc presented is for a requested refund; my original response was to an un requested refund.

The check itself is a contract that must bear the conditional upon it "Refund" or appropriate legalese to similar effect.
The purchase agreement is also a contract that in some cases defines refund in BTC.
The intent of the original instrument (purchase agreement) is clear
The intent of the draft be it properly labeled as such or not is clear
The draft does not abate the validity of the original separate instrument.

The draft can easily be construed as a partial refund if it does not clearly state on the draft itself for refund in full.

Consult your local consul, both legal and mental

Edit addendum:  Note that nowhere on the front of the physical draft presented above is anything to the effect of refund of any sort; as far as the back goes???  Further the draft, from the photo, appears to be a separate document from the letter. It appears as it is not a tear off, but that it was simply set upon the letter for the photo.

Cura tibi est?
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cedivad
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January 15, 2014, 06:09:45 AM
 #7082

To Me it sounds like they may have just royally screwed themselves and sent you guys a whole bunch of money to pay your Attorney with to get your BTC back... Wouldn't that be ironic  Shocked
You know what's is ironic? My hidden abilities to detect sockpuppets, that are ironic.

Yes everyone, please cash out the check to pay for your lawyer. Moare BTC for me.

Btw, when my lawyer said not to do so, i've answered him that i'm stupid, yes, but not that stupid. So let's see who falls for it.

Re: people who requested a USD refund that paid with USD and they have yet to receive it, good luck with that contract you signed.

So later batches are likely to get the very same treatment.

I really want to see if they have the courage to expose themselves to that kind of legal procedures for the following batches as well. If they do so it means that we are all stupid, and that there is something like 1% of the customers requesting a proper refund.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
cedivad
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January 15, 2014, 06:15:37 AM
 #7083

The draft can easily be construed as a partial refund if it does not clearly state on the draft itself for refund in full.



My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
kaerf
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January 15, 2014, 07:07:04 AM
 #7084

unsolicited refunds for BTC orders?! wtf! someone needs to castrate these fuckers before they fuck anyone else.

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January 15, 2014, 07:28:30 AM
 #7085



See above.  "We sell our machines for BTC" ~ Hashfast.

It's still on the page.  http://hashfast.com/miner-protection-program/



you never been to court have you?   fight the battles that you can win not ones you want to win.. in fact anything you know you can't win you shouldn't even bring up.  Go after what they said in the early refund responses

everyone can see the price of the miners were always on the site in $$$ and didn't fluctuate with the price of btc.  you will get clowned in court if you go that route


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gmaxwell
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January 15, 2014, 07:41:09 AM
 #7086

you never been to court have you?   fight the battles that you can win not ones you want to win.. in fact anything you know you can't win you shouldn't even bring up.  Go after what they said in the early refund responses
They attorneys taking it on contingency on the amounts above and beyond the offered settlements sure don't seem to agree with you. Everyone can also see the clear and explicit promises of 1:1 Bitcoin refunds both in public and in private communications. By all means, anyone who somehow didn't get the message that 1:1 refunds on failure were part of the deal and didn't make their purchasing decision because of it: take the settlement— leave the assets for the recovery of those of us who relied on the original terms.

Bitcoin will not be compromised
Gandalfs Mentor
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January 15, 2014, 07:57:06 AM
 #7087

To Me it sounds like they may have just royally screwed themselves and sent you guys a whole bunch of money to pay your Attorney with to get your BTC back... Wouldn't that be ironic  Shocked
so it means that we are all stupid, and that there is something like 1% of the customers requesting a proper refund.
Legal processes in the states are tricky but contract law is extremely explicit for US citizens; generally covers the Brothers and Sisters North of us pretty well and to some extent the ones South also.  Those overseas might have some difficulty.  What's the buyoff, like 2,500 Pounds
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January 15, 2014, 08:07:49 AM
 #7088

you never been to court have you?   fight the battles that you can win not ones you want to win.. in fact anything you know you can't win you shouldn't even bring up.  Go after what they said in the early refund responses
They attorneys taking it on contingency on the amounts above and beyond the offered settlements sure don't seem to agree with you. Everyone can also see the clear and explicit promises of 1:1 Bitcoin refunds both in public and in private communications. By all means, anyone who somehow didn't get the message that 1:1 refunds on failure were part of the deal and didn't make their purchasing decision because of it: take the settlement— leave the assets for the recovery of those of us who relied on the original terms.

You missed what I said..  I said go for what they said in the early refund replies..  which was what you say.  I am just saying don't think they advertised the selling of the miners at btc prices. They never posted that like Avalon did.
 Should just harp on what they promised as refunds in full btc.

Why give them an area for them to make a case..  just focus on the refund side of the promise


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VolanicEruptor
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January 15, 2014, 08:16:43 AM
 #7089

Eduardo/Icebreaker must be shitting his pants over all of this

cedivad
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January 15, 2014, 08:18:38 AM
 #7090

Even the ToS are clear enough. Refund the payment. Payment: 100% BTC. Easy enough.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
dhenson
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January 15, 2014, 08:20:24 AM
 #7091

Eduardo/Icebreaker must be shitting his pants over all of this

Seriously?  For every customer that doesn't have the fortitude to pursue legal recompense, he profits.  He will end up far better off in the long run by being a douche bag fraudster.

Fuck him and his entire team.
yuriygeorge
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January 15, 2014, 08:26:42 AM
 #7092

For those in the states, has anyone considered doing the arbitration yourself, without a lawyer? If the lawyers are taking a big cut, and if they lose would demand payment for services anyways, then I would think going without a lawyer may be a way to negotiate a better deal/compromise for yourself, or no? Thoughts?

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cedivad
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January 15, 2014, 08:30:23 AM
 #7093

Thoughts?
Yes, HF's lawyer would be a problem. He has a good reputation.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
Gandalfs Mentor
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January 15, 2014, 08:33:43 AM
 #7094

you never been to court have you?   fight the battles that you can win not ones you want to win.. in fact anything you know you can't win you shouldn't even bring up.  Go after what they said in the early refund responses
They attorneys taking it on contingency on the amounts above and beyond the offered settlements sure don't seem to agree with you. Everyone can also see the clear and explicit promises of 1:1 Bitcoin refunds both in public and in private communications. By all means, anyone who somehow didn't get the message that 1:1 refunds on failure were part of the deal and didn't make their purchasing decision because of it: take the settlement— leave the assets for the recovery of those of us who relied on the original terms.

You missed what I said..  I said go for what they said in the early refund replies..  which was what you say.  I am just saying don't think they advertised the selling of the miners at btc prices. They never posted that like Avalon did.
 Should just harp on what they promised as refunds in full btc.

Why give them an area for them to make a case..  just focus on the refund side of the promise


At the most basic level the courts are bound to uphold what is fair and right... they will do this though it usually takes a while.
$5,600 back in August does equal $5,600 today in us dollars, sort of... Which, for all intensive purposes, is what it is as the USD is the coin of the realm.  So, for this part I am saying that you can take the refund (offer) as it stands and be happy, or try door #2

#2  Now let me be clear, this likely does not apply to all of you:
If you have in your possession a written sales agreement, signed, that has all the transactions listed in btc and can prove with transaction records that you compensated them for the trade in btc you have a good case.

Again, contract law is very specific.  If I agree in writing to trade you ten magic beans for a unicorn and the contract guarantees a refund of said beans, in this case which has been both expressed, and implied from HF Admin repeatedly {btc=beans}, then when my unicorn don't show I shall have my beans, not any beans, my magic beans.

Point of order:  A contractual agreement was entered into by two parties, one party is in breach of contract. End of story; to what extent the courts will decide.

The fact that these are dated products, meaning their value rapidly decreases in a short amount of time, is also a compensable argument.
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January 15, 2014, 08:42:14 AM
 #7095

For those in the states, has anyone considered doing the arbitration yourself, without a lawyer? If the lawyers are taking a big cut, and if they lose would demand payment for services anyways, then I would think going without a lawyer may be a way to negotiate a better deal/compromise for yourself, or no? Thoughts?
Very strongly not recommended!!!

Ever hear the saying he who represents himself has a fool for a client...

The world of law is another dimension wherein they speak words that sound like English but have totally different meanings, they even have their own dictionary, go figure...
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January 15, 2014, 08:57:33 AM
 #7096

you never been to court have you?   fight the battles that you can win not ones you want to win.. in fact anything you know you can't win you shouldn't even bring up.  Go after what they said in the early refund responses
They attorneys taking it on contingency on the amounts above and beyond the offered settlements sure don't seem to agree with you. Everyone can also see the clear and explicit promises of 1:1 Bitcoin refunds both in public and in private communications. By all means, anyone who somehow didn't get the message that 1:1 refunds on failure were part of the deal and didn't make their purchasing decision because of it: take the settlement— leave the assets for the recovery of those of us who relied on the original terms.

You missed what I said..  I said go for what they said in the early refund replies..  which was what you say.  I am just saying don't think they advertised the selling of the miners at btc prices. They never posted that like Avalon did.
 Should just harp on what they promised as refunds in full btc.

Why give them an area for them to make a case..  just focus on the refund side of the promise


Which, for all intensive purposes

*for all intents and purposes.


 
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January 15, 2014, 10:31:53 AM
 #7097

I'm not an expert on US law, but where I'm from you can cash a cheque & still remain able to claim the remainder of what you claim to be owed. 

You have to reply to them promptly in writing (make sure to date and photocopy the letter before sending it) saying "I have received your cheque as partial payment against the $xxx/BTCxxx owing to me as a refund from non-delivery of my [product name]. Please promptly pay the remainder outstanding, which is $xxx/BTCxxx."  If you want you might also give them a deadline after which you will charge (a reasonable) rate of interest.  Obviously, if you're claiming BTC back you will need to show how you have calculated their USD payment against the BTC balance.

Meanwhile, cash the cheque before they realize what you've done & stop payment.

I'm not a lawyer, but i did study fair trade law to 300 level at uni & there was case law supporting this. I'm sure there will be a similar law/precedent in the US but you should probably check to make sure. Again, not 100% positive about the US, but this worked in a case even where the cheque was sent with a note saying it was "final payment". It could be a way to play Hashfast at their own game.
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January 15, 2014, 10:59:21 AM
 #7098

This will sound a tad repetitive, but here we go anyway:

Also arbitration seems to have a number of downsides:

Quote
Arbitration may be subject to pressures from powerful law firms representing the stronger and wealthier party

In some arbitration agreements, the parties are required to pay for the arbitrators, which adds an additional layer of legal cost that can be prohibitive, especially in small consumer disputes

In some arbitration agreements and systems, the recovery of attorneys' fees is unavailable, making it difficult or impossible for consumers or employees to get legal representation

Never been through an arbitration process before so any advice would be appreciated.

OK. Free advice: please join the mass action I am organizing, so that we can have our experienced lawyer handle this mess, and fight back against their legal hitman. (I don't think novices stand a chance here.)

For those in the states, has anyone considered doing the arbitration yourself, without a lawyer? If the lawyers are taking a big cut, and if they lose would demand payment for services anyways, then I would think going without a lawyer may be a way to negotiate a better deal/compromise for yourself, or no? Thoughts?

In my opinion, if you are going with a lawyer, then despite the fact that I think we have a perfectly valid case, you are likely to loose, because they have an expert on their side, and you have nothing. (Just the facts, but that is only one part of the equation.)

Thoughts?
Yes, HF's lawyer would be a problem. He has a good reputation.

Yes. (And by "good", here we mean that he is effective.)

For those in the states, has anyone considered doing the arbitration yourself, without a lawyer? If the lawyers are taking a big cut, and if they lose would demand payment for services anyways, then I would think going without a lawyer may be a way to negotiate a better deal/compromise for yourself, or no? Thoughts?
Very strongly not recommended!!!

Ever hear the saying he who represents himself has a fool for a client...

The world of law is another dimension wherein they speak words that sound like English but have totally different meanings, they even have their own dictionary, go figure...

+1
cedivad
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January 15, 2014, 12:16:13 PM
 #7099

2) Contact an arbitrator in the S.F. CA area.
Isn't the arbitrator(s) chosen between a common pool of possible arbitrators agreed between the parties? Why are you contacting a single arbitrator? Just for some suggestions on how to proceed?

Have a nice 15th of January everyone!

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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January 15, 2014, 12:26:11 PM
 #7100

I got the same letter and refund check...

Want to know the kicker?

I never filled out a refund request (in any form).

They are FORCING REFUNDS for batch1.

Expect your letter whether you want it or not.  We now get to enjoy the forced 90% loss of investment plus the tax hit.

Forced USD refunds?!

That would put a whole new dimension to this.

Now they're just straight up stealing 90% of people's bitcoin.

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