HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s

[Threader]

BFL have made everyone's refund trigger finger very twitchy when there is even the faintest whiff of over promising and under delivering.

[cedivad]

BFL have made everyone's refund trigger finger very twitchy when there is even the faintest whiff of over promising and under delivering.

This is not the case. Here we are talking about:
- No proof of anything
- No real shipping date
- 25% of the initial investment that seems like to be becoming a best case scenario

There this big thing, that is the state, that protects me from my stupidity. Hey state, thanks. I've always paid my taxes (i've a business), so, thanks!
Btw, the amount of taxes i've paid and the $ i have on order are of the same magnitude. Interesting tough.

[ProfMac]

@ProfMac: it matters since that the appointment is a very difficult exam you have to study for.

No.  It matters if I am there sometime between 15:00 and 15:10.  Nothing else matters.

If I am there from 14:30 to 14:59 I am not allowed to leave because of a no show.  If they are there at 15:05 they are not allowed to complain of a no show before 15:11.

[cedivad]

No.  It matters if I am there sometime between 15:00 and 15:10.  Nothing else matters.

If I am there from 14:30 to 14:59 I am not allowed to leave because of a no show.  If they are there at 15:05 they are not allowed to complain of a no show before 15:11.

We disagree on everything and always ProfMac, it's incredible. I remember me criticising you on creating webpages in c++... But anyway...

[MrTeal]

I've filed a FTC compilant for my amount. I would like you guys to do the same. It's a free, painless process that is really relaxing (compared to reading these forums) and takes about 15 minutes. You can do it here:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=70&Url=%23%26panel1-6

Also, i need help on deciding who to contact on this huge list, to prosecute offenders of consumer laws (since that it looks like that it can be done privately and not):
http://www.usa.gov/directory/stateconsumer/california.shtml

I have to take a flight tonight, so i can't do it. However i will probably spend a lot of time tomorrow calling them via Skype.

@btc_uzr; as you said, if they delivery anything at all. I'm really negative about it. They have show us nothing, so i just want my money back, rather than waiting and hoping as with butterflylabs.

@ProfMac: it matters since that the appointment is a very difficult exam you have to study for.

@Minor Miner: exactly. Now i wonder why it's taking 2 Weeks™ to have a picture of that something promised a few pages ago.

@winit: they have promised a LOT. For now, they have done NOTHING. I don't see why we should be able to have a "live tracking" of what's happening, especially since that everything that has to do with chip is under NDA, remember?

You might want to go through and compile a list with screencaps of all the places HashFast says they're shipping in October then, including versions of their own website that say Oct 20-30.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg2869011#msg2869011

[ProfMac]

No.  It matters if I am there sometime between 15:00 and 15:10.  Nothing else matters.

If I am there from 14:30 to 14:59 I am not allowed to leave because of a no show.  If they are there at 15:05 they are not allowed to complain of a no show before 15:11.

We disagree on everything and always ProfMac, it's incredible. I remember me criticising you on creating webpages in c++... But anyway...

I was having similar thoughts.  LOL.

[cedivad]

when will your asic be available and are there any prices?

We will be shipping in October.

We will be releasing pricing and launching sales shortly for a one chip hashing machine, a more dense rack mounted unit, as well as individual chips.    

HashFast is an interesting and much aticipated idea but please tell precisely whats Your plan to send working product to clients at the end of October.
To me this plan looks like quite ambitious one. Slightly too ambitious? I dont see any place for errors and delays. None.

So we have known phases - please provide a list of actions with roughly dates.

To have working device we need to:

1. Design a chip : do You have final design, its valid/seems working etc.?
2. Produce Chip : ??Whats You timeline here
3. Design PCB : ??Whats You timeline here
4A. Assembly service : ??Whats You timeline here
4B. BOM - components preorder : ??Whats You timeline here
5. Create software or adapt existing one : ??Whats You timeline here
6. Design/Adapt Case : ??Whats You timeline here
7. Start shipping  : 20-30 October

Above its a quick and dirty estimation of critical minestones of which each one have many intermediate steps. Of course some of them can be done in parallel.

Please provide Your estimations. This will show us how do you approach this project.

Agree - it certainly is an ambitious schedule.  We have put a *lot* of thought into every way to optimize it, multi-source components and suppliers, have contingency plans in place for delays/surprises at any point, etc.  Still, you are absolutely right - it is an operationally complex process under very tight timelines.

1) Yes, we do. 
Our chip was taped-out to TSMC last month, as described in the joint press release we, Uniquify and TSMC put out about this.  Prior to tape-out it passed all our physical and logical tests, and following that it passed all the design rule verification rules etc. that are part of the tape-in process.  Currently it is under fabrication - we past design, well into manufacturing, and are exposing more mask layers every day or two.   We get daily updates about it's progress, and track against them.

2) Complete silicon wafers will come out of TSMC in roughly 4 weeks. We would love to be able to release a *lot* more information about this, but we do need to be mindful of our NDA
What we can + will do is to post a basic explanation of the fabrication progress, how we track against it, etc. in the next few days.  Unfortunately this will be far higher level and will -not- have anywhere near the level of granularity we have;  we would **love** to do just that, and replace the noise about we are seeing in the market about hopes + aspirations with straightforward factual information, but our NDA with TSMC prevents us from doing just that.

3) Initial PCB design is complete (including both Gerbers and parts/sourcing selection)
We are currently finalizing it, optimizing for fabrication.

4A) Assembly service selection is completed.   The steps are as follows;

- First wafers coming out of TSMC will be hand carried by from the TSMC to our substrate manufacturers
  I'll see if I can get a picture of the airline-approved wafer carrying case we will use

- Chip substrate and packaging
  We have contracted 2 separate companies (one low volume/very fast turnaround, the other huge volume/longer ramp-up)
  Either one is capable of producing sufficient volume to package all chips sold to date 

- PCB and power stage assembly
  We have contracted a US-based specialized company for production of PCBs+low power stages for all chips sold to date.

- Final Assembly
  We have contracted a specialize company to assemble the modules into working Baby Jets and Sierras, and ship them to our customer
   via Fedex as soon as they are completed, following our published order # list.

4B) BOM complete, down to individual screws and stand-offs.
Components ordering well underway - that and shipping/logistics is the primary focus of our operations team right now

Also, prototype machines using precisely the same components as the final machines complete, assembled, and tested.

Re: testing, this includes completing stage III thermal performance tests; stage 1 was chip thermal emulation during the physical design stage of chip development, stage 2 was software thermal emulation of the finished machine, and stage III is inserting a controlable heating element of the same form factor as the chip package into a complete gold prototype, and measure how much heat the system can dissipate while remaining within operating temperatures.

The results of that test were very positive; the design goal for our GN chip was a cooling system able to dissipate 250W, at which level it will produce 400 GHash/s.  The stage 3 test confirmed that the cooling system is able to dissipate significantly over 300W, which we believe will lead to significantly improved performance 

5) Our chip has been running CGminer (and mining) for months now as an FPGA.
We have created high-quality drivers for the chip.   We expect to have 3rd party confirmation of that fact out very shortly 

6) We are not designing a custom case.  Other than our chip and PCB/power stage we have not designed any other components, and intentionally so;  the only way a system of this nature can be produced in this kind of time frame is to use existing standards-based parts as far as humanly possible.  The goal is focus, focus, focus.

7) Correct.

Eduardo deCastro
Founder and CEO, HashFast

I'm at a BTC meetup in Sunnyvale, where the Hashfast VP of Engineering is giving a talk right now.

This is admittedly rather time-sensitive, but if anyone has any questions, I'll be happy to ask 'em!

Ask if they're still on schedule for shipping next week.

Not surprisingly, this was indeed one of the questions that came up last night.

And, as of a few days ago, ... ...  it looks like we're probably going to slip, by about a week.

Ironically, not because of the silicon, even though that is the part of the system that takes the longest to manufacture. That's going through the foundry smoothly. But we ran into a delay sourcing one of our other components.

We've now found an alternative source. But that delay means it'll be challenging for us to ship finished systems before the end of October.

It's disappointing, but unfortunately these things happen. I'm glad we've made it this far through the process, and are still so close to our target date.

(I'm watching every day to see how close Cointerra will come to their targeted tapeout date.)

Amy Woodward
VP Engineering

HashFast Technologies

Amy,

Thank you for directly addressing these questions in this thread. I really appreciate you giving an honest reply as to shipping dates. With that being said, as we get closer to that date, can we expect more frequent updates regarding shipping?

Thanks
DHJ/WH

Yes, we will be sure to provide frequent updates regarding shipping. We will be posting an official blog to inform customers of these updates, so be sure to check our website in the upcoming days.

Cheers,

HashFast Team

Baby Jet product page updated just now:

• Wording changed from "Shipments begin October 20-30" to "Shipments anticipated to begin: October 20-30"
• The stock count just jumped around 100!  
• New single chip mock-up image

Stock count jumping was either HF testing the shopping cart and using up sales 100 times, or upping their first batch from 550 to 650 units...

Stock count: it's related to the testing scenario you mention.

There was a period where the website shop was live but hidden, and we were simultaneously doing manual sales. I reduced the "inventory" available online so that we had a pool for manual sales. Didn't want to risk selling the same units twice. Now we've put those units back in the pool.

So to confirm: We are selling a total of 550 Baby Jets.

Amy Woodward
VP Engineering
HashFast

Hi Everyone,

In addition to what Amy is saying above, the inventory will also fluctuate at times as we close out orders from buyers who started the purchase process while we were experiencing technical difficulties, and later decline to complete the purchase.  We have been trying to reach out to everyone via phone and email that attempted a purchase last week.

Our intent is be as transparent as possible, and we will continue to do our best towards this goal.

John
HashFast.com

Does the expected ship date of late October still look achievable?

Yes. We are exactly on track.

-John

Sorry if this was answered before, but do you provide hosting for BabyJets?
I can't receive any shipments from the end of October and for 2 months, that's why I upgraded to hosting with KnC. And would need hosting from HF if I were to diversify.

We are working on this, but don't yet have a solution in place.
-John

Sorry if this was answered before, but do you provide hosting for BabyJets?
I can't receive any shipments from the end of October and for 2 months, that's why I upgraded to hosting with KnC. And would need hosting from HF if I were to diversify.

We are working on this, but don't yet have a solution in place.
-John

Quoted for my incoming attorney.
Thanks, MrTeal.

[RoadStress]

OT: DeathAndTaxes have you invested in HF ?

I have purchased a single BabyJet for evaulation.  For full disclosure I also have purchased an evaluation KNC Saturn and Bitfury "Starter".  I intend to experiment with immersion cooling and using the waste heat for hot water and heating applications.   If/when I make a large purchase it will be in the future when hopefully hashrate is more predictable and prices ($/GH) are lower.

For my needs the Hashfast boards seem to be optimal (I don't really care about cases, power supplies, or cooling units).  The high energy density and abilitity to connect an arbitrary number of hashing boards to one host (potentially hundred feet away outside the immersion cooling tank) is a good fit.   Well at least on paper.   Lets see what they deliver. 

Are you ready to invest so much for your needs? Don't you need a considerable amount of money in order to set up this kind of thing?

Have you received your knc yet?

[Ytterbium]

Does everyone really expect a prompt refund from a company founded by a guy who's claim to fame is spending the better part of the last decade promoting affiliate porn websites? Your best bet may be to try and cancel on the grounds that the verbiage had been listed as "shipping Oct 20-30" in the forums and on their website while the Dec 31st date was buried in fine print, but you would have to push pretty hard (pun partially intended) to get any kind of legal recourse through. They most likely aren't just going to give you your money back, there's a reason they weaseled that "guaranteed" date into the fine print.

You can also cancel on the grounds that, you know, they're legal required to allow people to cancel orders before they ship no matter what they say on their website.

[cedivad]

Does everyone really expect a prompt refund from a company founded by a guy who's claim to fame is spending the better part of the last decade promoting affiliate porn websites? Your best bet may be to try and cancel on the grounds that the verbiage had been listed as "shipping Oct 20-30" in the forums and on their website while the Dec 31st date was buried in fine print, but you would have to push pretty hard (pun partially intended) to get any kind of legal recourse through. They most likely aren't just going to give you your money back, there's a reason they weaseled that "guaranteed" date into the fine print.

You can also cancel on the grounds that, you know, they're legal required to allow people to cancel orders before they ship no matter what they say on their website.

Two is better than one

[Puppet]

Hmm.. I thought you would have had no legal basis for demanding a refund as long as HF isnt 30 days overdue, but that seems to be incorrect, the 30 day rule only applies if no 'shipping representation' was given. Its clear they did give a shipping representation, just being 1 day late gives you grounds to refuse the order:

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.

Moreover, whatever they say on their ToS page is likely overruled by anything said over the phone, probably on this forum and on their order page:

Qualifying 30-day or Other Shipment Representations:

Q: In soliciting telephone orders we make no shipment representation, so the 30-day rule applies. In taking the order, the sales representative tells the customer that the merchandise will be shipped in 72 hours. Then we discover that the merchandise cannot be shipped in 72 hours, but can be shipped within 30 days. Do we have to get the customer’s agreement to a delay?

A: Yes. The shipment representation you make in negotiating the sale during the telephone call supersedes any express shipment representation you made in soliciting the order or, if you made no express shipment representation, the 30-day shipment time. Your compliance with the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule will be determined based upon the 72-hour shipment representation.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Curious how this will pan out, though I have to say I would have expected BFL customers to file complaints en masse well before hashfast.

(/me waits for Ytterbium, Ytterbium & Associates to point out thats a mail and telephone order rule and therefore doesnt apply to online sales paid with bitcoins )

[Ytterbium]

This was known "traffic arbitrage".  Not the founder.  Yes, and the bios highlight the best company names also, not necessarily the most recent, that is typical of a bio.
If you can dig up dirt on Uniquify or TSMC as not being capable of designing this chip and producing and packaging this chip, then I am interested.
Do not much care that the head of sales may not know that much about shipping physical products as long as Ciarra does.

There was a lot of info linking them to scammy scammersons when they first posted, fake twitter accounts, seeming sockpuppets, etc. I'm sure they're developing a real chip and plan to distribute them, but it did look like they were involved in trying to pull some shady marketing stunts at the time (Which they probably gave up on due to being caught immediately on the site)

It was always my impression that they were planning to pull a BFL.  Advertise an insanely early release date, then miss it. HashFast announced July 25th and promised to deliver in October, before they'd even taped out.  They had 3 months to get everything done.  KnC announced their products in the middle of April, giving them 5.5 months to get everything done. We know they got their chips by the end of October, so it's likely they'd actually already placed their orders with the fab (let alone taping out) before HashFast even made their first announcement.

Plus their contract specifically said they'd only refund people's money if they failed to deliver by the end of January or something crazy. Even though they said they'd refund people's money if they failed to deliver on time without mentioning the January thing.

And of course, they refused to take credit cards.

[Ytterbium]

Hmm.. I thought you would have had no legal basis for demanding a refund as long as HF isnt 30 days overdue, but that seems to be incorrect, the 30 day rule only applies if no 'shipping representation' was given. Its clear they did give a shipping representation, just being 1 day late gives you grounds to refuse the order:

I know logic isn't your strong suit, but if no shipping representation is given, then they can't miss their represented shipping date. Duh. 

If no shipping representation is given, then the have to ship within 30 days of the order, which for most people is obviously long passed.

[crumbs]

This was known "traffic arbitrage".  Not the founder.  Yes, and the bios highlight the best company names also, not necessarily the most recent, that is typical of a bio.
If you can dig up dirt on Uniquify or TSMC as not being capable of designing this chip and producing and packaging this chip, then I am interested.
Do not much care that the head of sales may not know that much about shipping physical products as long as Ciarra does.

There was a lot of info linking them to scammy scammersons when they first posted, fake twitter accounts, seeming sockpuppets, etc. I'm sure they're developing a real chip and plan to distribute them, but it did look like they were involved in trying to pull some shady marketing stunts at the time (Which they probably gave up on due to being caught immediately on the site)

It was always my impression that they were planning to pull a BFL.  Advertise an insanely early release date, then miss it. HashFast announced July 25th and promised to deliver in October, before they'd even taped out.  They had 3 months to get everything done.  KnC announced their products in the middle of April, giving them 5.5 months to get everything done. We know they got their chips by the end of October, so it's likely they'd actually already placed their orders with the fab (let alone taping out) before HashFast even made their first announcement.

Plus their contract specifically said they'd only refund people's money if they failed to deliver by the end of January or something crazy. Even though they said they'd refund people's money if they failed to deliver on time without mentioning the January thing.

And of course, they refused to take credit cards.

Welp, as ready as i am to contradict... I got nothing. 

[tacotime]

If hash fast doesn't begin shipping in a couple weeks, they may as well pull out of the game and refund customers before they incur further losses trying to play catch up with KnC.

This is game time for HashFast, and what we see in the next few weeks will make or break the company.  I hope they're prepared not to sleep for a while.  They should be on a plane somewhere today finding out why their substrates won't be ready on time and what they can do to rectify the situation.

Comparisons to BFL aren't valid because that company is already dead in the water. HF may soon be.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Are you ready to invest so much for your needs? Don't you need a considerable amount of money in order to set up this kind of thing?

Depends on what you mean by considerable.  My estimate for the prototype immersion tank is $1,500 to $2,000 (excluding ASICs) and it should be capable of cooling 4TH/s to 8TH/s of hardware.  The actual capacity will depend on a lot of factors primary ASIC board size.

As for "needs"?  Sometimes people just do things to see if they can.  In theory with immersion cooling your ASICs could provide year round hot water and heating in the winter "for free".  What heat you can't use can be cheaply dumped outside.   The fact that is can be done in a smaller space, and with noise is an added advantage.   To take full advantage of the capabilities I will need one or more vendors to sell "naked modules" (no cooling, power, cases, heatsinks, etc) at a reasonable cost.  The initial purchases are just for evaluation.

Have you received your knc yet?

No but it was a Nov order so I don't expect it before Nov 15th.

[Easy2Mine]

KnC over delivered.
It would be nice if they ship the november batch earlier.
No more waiting for more than a year for your gear like BFL singles.

[RoadStress]

Are you ready to invest so much for your needs? Don't you need a considerable amount of money in order to set up this kind of thing?

Depends on what you mean by considerable.  My estimate for the prototype immersion tank is $1,500 to $2,000 (excluding ASICs) and it should be capable of cooling 4TH/s to 8TH/s of hardware.  The actual capacity will depend on a lot of factors primary ASIC board size.

As for "needs"?  Sometimes people just do things to see if they can.  I watercooled a rack of GPU rigs so another watercooling run would be boring.  Immersion cooling is experimental (in the sense of making it economical) and there is absolutely no guarantee of success.  It could turn out to be an expensive hobby with nothing to show for it other than gained knowledge.  However there are some advantages.  The first is that cooling is expensive.  The equipment is expensive, and the electricity is expensive.  Unless you are ducting your heat outside you are then going to pay even more for using AC to move that heat outside.   In theory with immersion cooling your ASICs could provide year round hot water and heating in the winter "for free".  What heat you can't use can be cheaply dumped outside.  That certainly changes the operating costs of a rig.

To take full advantage of the capabilities I will need one or more vendors which will sell "naked modules" no cooling, power, cases, heatsinks, etc.  Just modules.   The reason is that my guestimate is that HF spends about $0.50/GH on the balance of the system (power, cooling, cases, etc).   Those costs are unlikely to fall even when ASICs themselves get cheaper.   Immersion cooling can probably be done for <$0.50 per GH/s so there isn't a huge cost disparity if one is buying modules only.

Simple version:
Balance of system costs roughly the same for air or water cooling on large custom rig (8TH/s)
Much higher density (4x to 6x the hashing power in same space)
Silent cooling (if heat exchanger is placed outside)
Heat recovery
Any ASIC could be used however on paper HashFast's design is optimal.

Have you received your knc yet?

No but it was a Nov order so I don't expect it before Nov 15th.

Thank you for the juicy insight. Please let us know how it goes. Maybe you will take into consideration selling a form of the kit to the public. I think i may not be the only one interested.

[Puppet]

Thank you for the juicy insight. Please let us know how it goes. Maybe you will take into consideration selling a form of the kit to the public. I think i may not be the only one interested.

+1
DnT, can you start a thread on this? Have some questions that would go off topic too much here, like what sort of oil you intend to use.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Thank you for the juicy insight. Please let us know how it goes. Maybe you will take into consideration selling a form of the kit to the public. I think i may not be the only one interested.

+1
DnT, can you start a thread on this? Have some questions that would go off topic too much here, like what sort of oil you intend to use.

I had started this thread/FAQ but got busy I will hopefully fill in more details this evening. 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313087.0

I don't know if I will ever sell a kit, hell I don't even know if it will live up to the promise at this point.   It won't be oil (although that is an option),  I am looking at Fluorinert (probably FC-72) made by 3M.  My interest in HashFast's, is that of all the ASIC designs, the HashFast modules have the highest density when looking at the hashrate and board size (~1.7 GH/cm2).   That is important to minimize the amount of immersion fluid necessary.  The other reason is that since they use USB for data connection it makes customizing easier.

Anything can be immersion cooled by at least based on specs HashFast design is near optimal based on designs we have seen so far.