HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s

[ninjarobot]

 If they would have listed December 31 they would never have sold all units at these prices.

actually, i think most were sold after them adding this provision

True, but I'm talking about the Dec 31st date on the product page, not the terms and conditions page (since most people don't bother to read this)

[amer]

Where are:

* Batch 2 (and beyond) order chains
* a live schedule that will allow you to follow the progress of the rigs, and better anticipate when yours will arrive. We’ll be updating the schedule in real time as we get the latest information.

[DPoS]

How are you going to get a refund anyway since they only took bitcoins and wire transfers?

They have no incentive to ship early.. you best find out if Ciara is shipping direct to customers or back to them.. if back to them, then they will mine until last week of Dec

You can ask for MPP in April

[tacotime]

How are you going to get a refund anyway since they only took bitcoins and wire transfers?

They have no incentive to ship early.. you best find out if Ciara is shipping direct to customers or back to them.. if back to them, then they will mine until last week of Dec

You can ask for MPP in April

Ciara is shipping direct to customers

But this isn’t just about power. We’ll be shipping our Baby Jets directly from CIARA’s massive 576,000 sq. ft. headquarters in Montreal. There are few manufacturers in the world that have the incredible capacity to build and ship mining rigs with the speed CIARA does. What’s more, CIARA is a C-TPAT registered company, which means no delays at US or Canadian customs.

This means I should be one of the first people to get one, when it's shipped.

[amer]

Can someone fix my logic here, what is the point of MPP?

Current - BTC @ 195 - 10.26 BTC
Assuming 850M difficulty at receipt and 30% increases each adjustment = no MPP, break even within 90 days.
Assuming 1070M difficulty at receipt and 40% increases each adjustment = MPP must kick in because day 90 you will have 7.4BTC.

Per HF MPP rules, it would have taken an additional 150GH to hit the 10.26BTC we started with. They double it to 300GH, round up to the nearest whole GN (1 chip @ 400). Now you have 400GH to put on your system 90 days after you received it. In this crazy town of 40% constant difficulty increases, that would yield you an additional 0.2 BTC, which is not worth the extra MPP fee.

If difficulty remains under the 40% curve, MPP won't kick in.
If difficulty remains over the 40% curve, MPP will kick in but won't be worth it.

Are people who are buying MPP imagining that it will be extremely difficult to mine for the first 90 days, so that MPP will kick in, but then it will stop so that the extra capacity can give make MPP worth it? Can someone who thinks MPP is a great idea please share their assumptions about difficulty expectations?

[bitly]

I'd say we start the legal process and find a lawyer. With this many users screwed, there should be enough profit for a lawyer.

Unity is the force!

Ninja, it looks like there wasn't a clause stating a refund policy in the latter posted policy.  Maybe this was a clarification.

Well there was this:

Except for delivery dates explicitly guaranteed in the order confirmation, delivery dates communicated or acknowledged by Hashfast are approximate only, and Hashfast shall not be liable for, nor shall Hashfast be in breach of its obligations to Buyer because of any delivery made within a reasonable time before or after the stated delivery date.

A customer should be able to get a full refund if the delivery is not made within a reasonable time frame after the stated delivery date (Oct 20-30 at the time of my purchase). The question is what is a reasonable time frame for this type of product? Clearly since the majority of the profit is made in the first few weeks after purchase after which it quickly degenerates into a large and heavy paperweight I'd say reasonably short (a few weeks).

As integrity42 pointed out in the other HashFast thread, a 400GH/s miner is now expected to only mine ~15.3 BTC in a 1 year period (Starting Nov 23, assuming a 4 week delivery delay)

I paid 59 BTC for my BJ so I feel like a proper fool now... Part of it my own fault of course (I did not expect network growth to go double exponential). But HF was only able to demand this kind of premium from Batch 1 customers because of the listed delivery dates of Oct 20-30. Time *is* Money. If they would have listed December 31 they would never have sold all units at these prices.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Can someone fix my logic here, what is the point of MPP?

Current - BTC @ 195 - 10.26 BTC
Assuming 850M difficulty at receipt and 30% increases each adjustment = no MPP, break even within 90 days.
Assuming 1070M difficulty at receipt and 40% increases each adjustment = MPP must kick in because day 90 you will have 7.4BTC.

Per HF MPP rules, it would have taken an additional 150GH to hit the 10.26BTC we started with. They double it to 300GH, round up to the nearest whole GN (1 chip @ 400). Now you have 400GH to put on your system 90 days after you received it. In this crazy town of 40% constant difficulty increases, that would yield you an additional 0.2 BTC, which is not worth the extra MPP fee.

If difficulty remains under the 40% curve, MPP won't kick in.
If difficulty remains over the 40% curve, MPP will kick in but won't be worth it.

Are people who are buying MPP imagining that it will be extremely difficult to mine for the first 90 days, so that MPP will kick in, but then it will stop so that the extra capacity can give make MPP worth it? Can someone who thinks MPP is a great idea please share their assumptions about difficulty expectations?

Under the scenario you described you are better off purchasing the non MPP option.   However imagine a scenario where the growth of the difficulty growth slows down.

So 40% per adjustment today, 30% a month from now, 25% the next month, etc.   What curve will look like is unknown.  However given there are real world economics in play (limited BTC availability, electrical costs, future miners estimating the profitability of new hardware purchases) as difficulty goes up the future prospects go down and that will have a cooling effect on future sales.   I don't think the curve will bend before 10 PH/s because likely there is already that much hashpower in preorders but will it bend around 10 PH/s? 20 PH/s? 100 PH/s? or never bend all the way up to 111,000 PH/s (and miners will spend 1000% of BTC reward in electricity as some using genesis block calculator seem to think)?  I have no idea however it is very likely the curve will bend at some point and if it does bend it likely will be after the first 90 days. 

[willphase]

Can you show us the NDA?

best post so far!

Will

[Paladin69]

Can someone fix my logic here, what is the point of MPP?

Current - BTC @ 195 - 10.26 BTC
Assuming 850M difficulty at receipt and 30% increases each adjustment = no MPP, break even within 90 days.
Assuming 1070M difficulty at receipt and 40% increases each adjustment = MPP must kick in because day 90 you will have 7.4BTC.

Per HF MPP rules, it would have taken an additional 150GH to hit the 10.26BTC we started with. They double it to 300GH, round up to the nearest whole GN (1 chip @ 400). Now you have 400GH to put on your system 90 days after you received it. In this crazy town of 40% constant difficulty increases, that would yield you an additional 0.2 BTC, which is not worth the extra MPP fee.

If difficulty remains under the 40% curve, MPP won't kick in.
If difficulty remains over the 40% curve, MPP will kick in but won't be worth it.

Are people who are buying MPP imagining that it will be extremely difficult to mine for the first 90 days, so that MPP will kick in, but then it will stop so that the extra capacity can give make MPP worth it? Can someone who thinks MPP is a great idea please share their assumptions about difficulty expectations?

Scam, as suspected.  90 days is a lot of difficulty changes.

[Puppet]

Hashfast's pricing scheme is pretty messed up in hindsight and I am very surprised they are not really doing anything about it. 

If it aint broken, dont fix it. Apparently they are selling pretty well, otherwise (and sooner or later anyway) you'd see far more aggressive price cuts. That goes for all vendors btw.

[Ytterbium]

The thing is that they seem to be closed to any further suggestion and compensation. We will end having our BJs and a customer that comes on further batches, without any product already shipped is expected to have more profits than us. Not pretty fair  

If I were Hashfast right now I would not be engaging individual customers, especially excitable ones, in extended discussions either. It's pointless and probably a waste of time, although I agree that a couple of the communications from them that I've seen posted here were curt and somewhat defensive.  What this suggests to me is that they are feeling pressure and responsibility, and that's good.  They have a lot of our money and need to deliver.

If I was Hashfast I would, however, be diligently monitoring discussions like this one and seriously thinking about comments and suggestions submitted in a civil fashion, with a view to announcing a plan to address the situation of batch one customers as soon as the chips fall into place (i.e. when there are more known knowns). 

With that, I'm done with this topic until further news from the company itself!  See ya then.

What they have to do, by law is offer refunds to people who ask for them, until they ship a product.

[mdbssm]

You give me questions, I give them questions and try to be the go-between and get your answers.

Tacotime,

When I placed my early batch 1 order, the Dec 31st clause did not exist. It was added later.

Regardless, by law, they are required to issue a refund if requested, as we have prepaid for a product that has not shipped, and is late. I have politely requested a refund, by email, and I received a response from Hashfast denying that request.

Why are they breaking the law?

[RoadStress]

You give me questions, I give them questions and try to be the go-between and get your answers.

Tacotime,

When I placed my early batch 1 order, the Dec 31st clause did not exist. It was added later.

Regardless, by law, they are required to issue a refund if requested, as we have prepaid for a product that has not shipped, and is late. I have politely requested a refund, by email, and I received a response from Hashfast denying that request.

Why are they breaking the law?

Because they have nothing to give you and you can't do anything to them since no CC or Paypal payments

[Ytterbium]

You give me questions, I give them questions and try to be the go-between and get your answers.

Tacotime,

When I placed my early batch 1 order, the Dec 31st clause did not exist. It was added later.

Regardless, by law, they are required to issue a refund if requested, as we have prepaid for a product that has not shipped, and is late. I have politely requested a refund, by email, and I received a response from Hashfast denying that request.

Why are they breaking the law?

Because they have nothing to give you and you can't do anything to them since no CC or Paypal payments

He can sue.

[plasmoske]

So chips [by TSMC] were meant to be done towards the end of October? 22ish?

But only thing left is the substrates (some weeks delay)? Then they will package it. (second week Nov)

What's the next step after?

[MinorMiner]

Can someone fix my logic here, what is the point of MPP?

Current - BTC @ 195 - 10.26 BTC
Assuming 850M difficulty at receipt and 30% increases each adjustment = no MPP, break even within 90 days.
Assuming 1070M difficulty at receipt and 40% increases each adjustment = MPP must kick in because day 90 you will have 7.4BTC.

Per HF MPP rules, it would have taken an additional 150GH to hit the 10.26BTC we started with. They double it to 300GH, round up to the nearest whole GN (1 chip @ 400). Now you have 400GH to put on your system 90 days after you received it. In this crazy town of 40% constant difficulty increases, that would yield you an additional 0.2 BTC, which is not worth the extra MPP fee.

If difficulty remains under the 40% curve, MPP won't kick in.
If difficulty remains over the 40% curve, MPP will kick in but won't be worth it.

Are people who are buying MPP imagining that it will be extremely difficult to mine for the first 90 days, so that MPP will kick in, but then it will stop so that the extra capacity can give make MPP worth it? Can someone who thinks MPP is a great idea please share their assumptions about difficulty expectations?

Remember though, the Batch 1 prices were not available without the MPP .. so in order to get that 'first in line' feeling you had to pay the $5600 or whatever it was. Now it seems like a rip-off since the October batch is now a November batch

[tacotime]

I've sent the company rep a battery of questions, I'll let you know when I get a response although I am sick and I do have to work today too.

[itod]

3) Should customers be concerned they indicated at 2 week delay but now seem to be pushing the "31 DEC" date heavily?

Either they delivery before the 31 of Dec or they are bankrupted, there are not many other possibilities from their point of view...

So:
Until they fail to delivery before Dec 31st => no refunds,
If they fail to delivery at that date => they are bankrupted => no refunds.

No refunds in any case.

If I've understood you correctly that part about bankrupting is directly from HF.

We are screwed. Don't want to mention lawyers, since no group-lawyer-attempt have ever succeeded @ bitcointalk.org. Don't know what to look forward to, there's no positive outcome for us customers from this situation.

[dexX7]

No refunds in any case.

From https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale:

3. DELIVERY AND QUANTITIES.
(a) Guaranteed Baby Jet Delivery Dates – Batch 1. All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013. If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of the order at Buyer’s request and Hashfast will refund the payment for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled. This cancellation and refund is Buyer’s sole and exclusive remedy for Hashfast failing to deliver by the December 31, 2013 guaranteed delivery date. To avail itself of this remedy, Buyer must cancel the order before such unit(s) are delivered by Hashfast, and in any case before March 31, 2014.*

(b) Guaranteed Baby Jet Delivery Dates – Batch 2. All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s second production batch are guaranteed for delivery by February 28, 2014. ... This cancellation and refund is Buyer’s sole and exclusive remedy for Hashfast failing to deliver by the February 28, 2014 guaranteed delivery date. To avail itself of this remedy, Buyer must cancel the order before such unit(s) are delivered by Hashfast, and in any case before May 28, 2014.

(c) Guaranteed Sierra Delivery Dates – Batch 2. All Sierra units from Hashfast’s second production batch are guaranteed for delivery by January 31, 2014. ... This cancellation and refund is Buyer’s sole and exclusive remedy for Hashfast failing to deliver by the January 31, 2014 guaranteed delivery date. To avail itself of this remedy, Buyer must cancel the order before such unit(s) are delivered by Hashfast, and in any case before April 4, 2014.

*For whatever reason it seems that this was initially "... by the December 31, 2013 guaranteed delivery date, and Buyer must cancel the order by January 15, 2014 to avail itself of this remedy. Buyer to pay all taxes, duties and shipping costs." after order completion.

It was stated earlier that the explicit listing of delivery dates is HashFast's "out-of-jail" card, so to speak.

But back to the quote: even if would need to refund batch one, there are still two more months to fill batch two purchases, so I think "no refunds in any case" is slightly off.

[itod]

But back to the quote: even if would need to refund batch one, there are still two more months to fill batch two purchases, so I think "no refunds in any case" is slightly off.

Riddle me this: Can a bankrupted company give refunds? If no, than they have to deliver before Dec 31st => no refunds. If they manage to deliver batch #1 they will most probably deliver batch #2 also => no refunds.