[1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]

[krazik]

Doc, is it possible that multipool is cheating the pool? Koi has about the same hashrate and has solved several blocks over the last 3 days it so. Multipool has solved zero. Its odd.

This is something we need to be vigilant about.   It was happening at BTCGuild where 2,000TH/s "did not know" they had a flaw and could not solve a block yet could provide "work" so they got their share of the pool.    It is early yet, but I am certainly getting concerned which is why i posted.
Multipool has had about 200TH/s at bit minter (they seem to ramp it down right after someone else solves a block for a while but then it goes back up.    200 / 84,000 (network) X 144 (blocks per day) = 0.35.   Which means on average 200TH/s right now should solve a block every 3 days.    They have been here how long?   I think only five days but someone can correct me.   At this point, it could be bad luck.   But if it goes 15-24 days, I think we should vote them off the island and doc should withhold their "share".   
What happened at BTCGuild, is that the person "that did not know they had a flaw in their miners" received their share of the blocks BTC guild solved so everyone was shortchanged by about 20%.    You can argue this a lot of ways but that is how I look at it.   I still believe (and people have told me I am insane/stupid/crazy/"just do not understand") that there are flawed miners out there that are free riding on the network pools because they know they can never solo mine and solve a block.
You really think someone that had the money to build the facilities to put in 2,000TH/s of miners (facilities would cost around $2-4M) AND pay for all those miners (another $1.5-3M) DID NOT PAY $5,000 for someone to write them solo mining software?   Sure.   That is believable.  So, that would mean after solo mining and not finding a block for a few weeks, they KNEW the miners had a problem but they were "hashing", just not solving blocks.   What do you do when you have $4M on the line and cannot solve a block but you show bashing power?   Go to a pool and get paid for hashes from the blocks that other do solve.

It is too early to say this about multi pool but I am very suspicious and watching.   If they do not hit a block soon, I think I will move.

I think you're right that they've been on the pool for 5 days.

I doubt that Doc can withhold their share because they probably have a payout threshold which results in getting paid frequently.

IF they are pulling a fast one on the pool, then the key thing will be for Doc to take action to determine the nature of the fake work and protect the pool against this kind of fraud. Simply jumping ship is only a viable option in the short term. If multipool has figured out a way to submit fake work that passes as real, then others will soon enough. At that point, no pool will be safe from this kind of fraud.

The seem to be solving blocks since they joined.

https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=btc

[Minor Miner]

IF they are pulling a fast one on the pool, then the key thing will be for Doc to take action to determine the nature of the fake work and protect the pool against this kind of fraud. Simply jumping ship is only a viable option in the short term. If multipool has figured out a way to submit fake work that passes as real, then others will soon enough. At that point, no pool will be safe from this kind of fraud.

I do not know how to explain this better.   What happened on the network (and has been CAUGHT at btcguild ONCE) is that someone had BAD miners.    They could submit REAL work, they just could not solve a block when difficulty passed a certain level (2.4B I believe).   It was not fraud, it was more like free riding.    They were submitted work, they just NEVER would be able to solve a block after difficulty passed 2.4B.   They (allegedly) had a flaw in their custom firmware and (allegedly) fixed it.
Right now, 5 days is just bad luck for them but it is worth watching.

[jjdub7]

Doc - I should've checked before ordering, but does the client support the R-box?  Got it today and am still waiting on the power supply.

Nvm, got bfgminer up and running and pointed it to the pool.

Holy blockchain, Batman!  These things are fast! (I've only ever CPU/GPU mined before recently picking up a couple of Antminer U2's)

[hamburgerhelper]

The[y] seem to be solving blocks since they joined.

https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=btc

Yes, they claim to be solving blocks at cex.io, but apparently 100% of their hashrate has been mining at Bitminter.

I wonder if they could be submitting work to both pools simultaneously?

[strongenough24]

I have a question...Multipool's website says they do not charge a fee for mining BTC. How could this be when they should be paying Bitminter? Do they get a special deal?

No response...ok. How about this then; if I can join Multipool and mine BTC for no fee (https://www.multipool.us/help.php) does that mean I can mine Bintminter, through Multipool, for no fee? The only thing I have found on their website is they use a modified proportional payout. Is that the same as Bitminter? What is to stop all of Bitminter's miners pointing to Multipool's BTC port? Assuming Multipool does not get a special deal, I assume that their entire pool only pays Bitminter 1% per block. Their entire pool. I like Bitminter, but I am struggling to figure out why I should not point my miners to Multipool. Anyone?

[Minor Miner]

I have a question...Multipool's website says they do not charge a fee for mining BTC. How could this be when they should be paying Bitminter? Do they get a special deal?

No response...ok. How about this then; if I can join Multipool and mine BTC for no fee (https://www.multipool.us/help.php) does that mean I can mine Bintminter, through Multipool, for no fee? The only thing I have found on their website is they use a modified proportional payout. Is that the same as Bitminter? What is to stop all of Bitminter's miners pointing to Multipool's BTC port? Assuming Multipool does not get a special deal, I assume that their entire pool only pays Bitminter 1% per block. Their entire pool. I like Bitminter, but I am struggling to figure out why I should not point my miners to Multipool. Anyone?

I was trying to figure out why it is good deal to join multi pool too.    Would appreciate someone explaining other than they drift around and mine different alts.

[strongenough24]

I have a question...Multipool's website says they do not charge a fee for mining BTC. How could this be when they should be paying Bitminter? Do they get a special deal?

No response...ok. How about this then; if I can join Multipool and mine BTC for no fee (https://www.multipool.us/help.php) does that mean I can mine Bintminter, through Multipool, for no fee? The only thing I have found on their website is they use a modified proportional payout. Is that the same as Bitminter? What is to stop all of Bitminter's miners pointing to Multipool's BTC port? Assuming Multipool does not get a special deal, I assume that their entire pool only pays Bitminter 1% per block. Their entire pool. I like Bitminter, but I am struggling to figure out why I should not point my miners to Multipool. Anyone?

I was trying to figure out why it is good deal to join multi pool too.    Would appreciate someone explaining other than they drift around and mine different alts.

I logged into Multipool and looked closer at their numbers. If I read it correctly they avg about .00000005 BTC/Gh/day. Not good.

[bitwitt]

The[y] seem to be solving blocks since they joined.

https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=btc

Yes, they claim to be solving blocks at cex.io, but apparently 100% of their hashrate has been mining at Bitminter.

I wonder if they could be submitting work to both pools simultaneously?

I just pulled 2 thps from Bitminter. Doc can you check this out ?   If smells and looks like a rat......it must be a rat. For the 5 days muitipool has been here I think a block should have been found.  Heck I found a block with an antminer s1 running for 40 days a week ago.

[organofcorti]

The[y] seem to be solving blocks since they joined.

https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=btc

Yes, they claim to be solving blocks at cex.io, but apparently 100% of their hashrate has been mining at Bitminter.

I wonder if they could be submitting work to both pools simultaneously?

They can only do that if they split their hashrate. What they can't so is to submit the same shares to different pools. This should not be considered a problem.


 

[DrHaribo]

There's currently a 1% fee for all users in the pool.

No, you can't submit the same work to two different pools. It would just get rejected at one of the pools.

Yes, you CAN split your hashrate and mine in multiple pools at the same time.

No, you can't mine in a pool and when you find a block take the coins for yourself.

Yes, you CAN mine in a pool and when you find a block throw it away so noone gets it. Those guys mining at BTCGuild had a bug in their mining software that was throwing away block solutions. Their ASIC chips were finding blocks but their software kept throwing the blocks away.

With the work Multipool has done at Bitminter so far without finding a block, I guess the CDF for that is around 70%. That's slightly bad luck. No, it's not always a rat if you have slightly bad luck. Look at all the blocks we had with much higher CDF than that. For 3 years now some people have thought the pool was broken every time we had slightly bad luck. And many people were absolutely certain the pool was broken every time we had very bad luck. It turns out that bad luck happens once in a while when you repeatedly roll the dice. And slightly bad luck is extremely common. So far that's all we are seeing, an extremely common event.

Let's be rational about this. What we have seen so far is extremely common. It would be a mistake to interpret the numbers as "so extremely rare that it is suspicious". That would be very very far from reality. It would be like finding a sea shell on the beach and calling every news agency to inform them. You may think it's the same as finding a sea shell in outer space. They won't agree. They'll hang up on you.

Most people have a very hard time trying to understand probability. That's how Las Vegas was built. I'm not good at it myself. First step, do like me and admit it to yourself.

[Minor Miner]

I brought it up to be vigilant.   Not to start a run to the doors.
On average they should get a block every 3 days.   Only when you get to 24 days can you REALLY start to be sure something is wrong.   We are at day 5.   Let's all just watch.

[bitwitt]

I don't pretend to know everything about cdf in bitcoin mining. But I do know Vegas blackjack.
If your at a table with bad luck or bad players you can take your chips and move to another table.
Unlike mining where you leave 40 hours of work when you move.  I would love to take all my wasted work
with me. That is why if something is wrong a move must be made quickly. I think this is a great pool but will watch
cautiously. still have 2thps running here. Good luck to all.

[organofcorti]

I don't pretend to know everything about cdf in bitcoin mining. But I do know Vegas blackjack.
If your at a table with bad luck or bad players you can take your chips and move to another table.
 <snip>

I guess that's why it's called the Gambler's Fallacy.

[philipma1957]

Doc, is it possible that multipool is cheating the pool? Koi has about the same hashrate and has solved several blocks over the last 3 days it so. Multipool has solved zero. Its odd.

This is something we need to be vigilant about.   It was happening at BTCGuild where 2,000TH/s "did not know" they had a flaw and could not solve a block yet could provide "work" so they got their share of the pool.    It is early yet, but I am certainly getting concerned which is why i posted.
Multipool has had about 200TH/s at bit minter (they seem to ramp it down right after someone else solves a block for a while but then it goes back up.    200 / 84,000 (network) X 144 (blocks per day) = 0.35.   Which means on average 200TH/s right now should solve a block every 3 days.    They have been here how long?   I think only five days but someone can correct me.   At this point, it could be bad luck.   But if it goes 15-24 days, I think we should vote them off the island and doc should withhold their "share".   
What happened at BTCGuild, is that the person "that did not know they had a flaw in their miners" received their share of the blocks BTC guild solved so everyone was shortchanged by about 20%.    You can argue this a lot of ways but that is how I look at it.   I still believe (and people have told me I am insane/stupid/crazy/"just do not understand") that there are flawed miners out there that are free riding on the network pools because they know they can never solo mine and solve a block.
You really think someone that had the money to build the facilities to put in 2,000TH/s of miners (facilities would cost around $2-4M) AND pay for all those miners (another $1.5-3M) DID NOT PAY $5,000 for someone to write them solo mining software?   Sure.   That is believable.  So, that would mean after solo mining and not finding a block for a few weeks, they KNEW the miners had a problem but they were "hashing", just not solving blocks.   What do you do when you have $4M on the line and cannot solve a block but you show bashing power?   Go to a pool and get paid for hashes from the blocks that other do solve.

It is too early to say this about multi pool but I am very suspicious and watching.   If they do not hit a block soon, I think I will move.

You do not understand what you are talking about. And at the same time you do understand what you are talking about.  Wow that must be very hard on your mind.

Here is what I agree with.   Your theory is: multi pool's gear sucks and they jump all over the place with  broken gear they are stuck with 

  You may be correct, they could have had terrible gear built  solo mined for a while realized the gear sucks and they are stuck with it.  So why not  create multi pool jump all over the place hurting a pools luck and leach off those of use with good miners.

They should mine a block every 3 days it is now 5 days.   that is nothing.  I have seen pools that need 3 hours a block go for 25 hours  .  So if multi pool does this goes 24 or 25 days you may be correct.

You even said that in your thereoy .  So actually you are not wrong so far. and you have pretty good understanding.  up to all of the above.

You then say 2 more days and you leave  2+5 = 7 days not 24    So all your understanding  above gets fully lost by wanting to wait for 2 days.
Also  why did you warn multi pool that you are on to them?  If they are truly villainous mining with terrible gear leaching off all the network you let them know you are on to them.
 Why didn't you wait for  20 days or 30 days to say something.    If they are the bad guys you say they are they will now jump more and hide better.

 This is what I mean when I say you do both you understand and you don't understand.  Must be painful at times.  I used to have that problem ..  I found it to be very painful.

[AaronS]

I don't pretend to know everything about cdf in bitcoin mining. But I do know Vegas blackjack.
If your at a table with bad luck or bad players you can take your chips and move to another table.
Unlike mining where you leave 40 hours of work when you move.  I would love to take all my wasted work
with me. That is why if something is wrong a move must be made quickly. I think this is a great pool but will watch
cautiously. still have 2thps running here. Good luck to all.

To save the Doctor the trouble of answering this yet again, you are not losing 40 hours of work when you join or leave the pool.  The "missing" hash power while you are building up your 10 shifts is the "free" hash power you get as your shifts wind down even after you've stopped mining at the pool.  There is no wasted work here: you get paid for all the work you have done.

On another theme, philipma, it is not "better" to solo mine with low power hardware: it is all the same.  Small payouts often or big payouts rarely give the same average payout.  The only thing that will change that is how much you pay in fees, so paying 1% in the regular pool or 4% in the solo pool means that the regular pool is technically better regardless of how little hashpower the hardware has.  Is a solo pool more fun?  Very possibly, since making a few cents a day is not very exciting, but it is not better.

[DrHaribo]

We had some good luck and then some even luck. We haven't been having bad luck for some time. Look at the reward graphs at https://bitminter.com/stats/rewards

The slightly bad luck I was talking about was Multipool alone. With their mining alone it is slightly bad luck that they haven't found a block yet. Which is completely normal.

The pool as a whole is currently having even luck, though, because others are finding blocks. Some miners in the pool are having good luck while others have bad luck. The pool is evening this out. This is one of the nice things that pools do.

The reward model at Bitminter does not punish you for coming and going. You can mine part time at the pool and the pay is still fair. Mining more does not change the pay you are going to get for the mining you already did. Like Blackjack, the hands you already played are done, there is no way to influence the winnings any more for those hands. But unlike Blackjack, the winnings have not been revealed yet. If you mine 12 hours per day at Bitminter, then you will on average make 50% of what you would get for mining 24/7. I say on average because the luck during the 50% you mine may not be the same as the 50% you don't mine. But over time that will even out.

Bitminter is not vulnerable to pool hopping. That's a technique where you hop between pools, timing it so that you get paid more than your fair share. The reward model at Bitminter was chosen specifically to make this impossible. Whether you earn more or less at Bitminter when you jump in and out of the pool is completely random. There is no way to predict whether mining pay at Bitminter in the next few hours will be higher or lower than other pools. Pool hopping was a way that some miners earned a lot more bitcoins at vulnerable pools, at the cost of the miners who were not pool hopping. I believe there are still a couple pools that are vulnerable to pool hopping. But the art/scam of pool hopping seems to be forgotten - I don't think any miners are doing it anymore.

You could try to switch between pools based on religious or superstitious beliefs. Maybe you believe luck is not random but related to karma or sin. Or maybe you believe that past luck influences future luck (this is called Gambler's Fallacy, you can read about it on Wikipedia). Maybe you belong to a Cargo Cult (also on Wikipedia) - you saw someone restart his miner and then he found a block. Now you believe restarting the miner increases the chance of finding blocks. All those beliefs go against all logic and science. I have never heard of anyone who is able to earn more bitcoins this way. But if you want to try it, you can. Bitminter won't punish your earnings for mining part time in the pool.

[hamburgerhelper]

Interesting given our current discussion:

https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=441465.msg7282674#msg7282674

Maybe the user "multipool" is not multipool.us?

[ichtus27]

and then there was the first block by multipool... 

now about 7 minutes ago...

 

[Minor Miner]

and then there was the first block by multipool... 
now about 7 minutes ago...
 

Cool.
and by averaging they should hit another soon.

[ichtus27]

uhm.. first btc block by multipool, i see they had also a few nmc blocks..