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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756221 times)
CIYAM
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March 10, 2014, 04:27:38 AM
 #42641

So,these parallel block chains of Nxt can be called Nxt Blocktree?

No - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about parallel chains - they are not "connected together" beyond perhaps "checkpoint" AMs being sent to the master chain.

Think of it like Bitcoin and Litecoin - so people talking about "spreading the load" across chains are actually saying that you would go to buy something with 1 BTC and say 100 LTC - personally I don't think any vendor is going to want to bother with that so such ideas are not helpful.

@ChuckOne - TF will be implemented in the main chain so you needn't care if another chain decides not to use TF as you don't need to buy any of those coins (it doesn't matter what you *think* about how someone should create a coin they are going to create one anyway if that's what they want to do).

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March 10, 2014, 05:00:50 AM
 #42642

So,these parallel block chains of Nxt can be called Nxt Blocktree?

No - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about parallel chains - they are not "connected together" beyond perhaps "checkpoint" AMs being sent to the master chain.

Think of it like Bitcoin and Litecoin - so people talking about "spreading the load" across chains are actually saying that you would go to buy something with 1 BTC and say 100 LTC - personally I don't think any vendor is going to want to bother with that so such ideas are not helpful.

@ChuckOne - TF will be implemented in the main chain so you needn't care if another chain decides not to use TF as you don't need to buy any of those coins (it doesn't matter what you *think* about how someone should create a coin they are going to create one anyway if that's what they want to do).


what do you think of the idea of having parallel chains that draw security from the price of NXT on the main chain. so for example the hits can be derived from the main chain but the targets would be derived from hashing a value that is deterministically derived from the geneses block of the alt chain. that way it is the ownership of nxt that entitles you to author blocks on the alt chain rather than the alt chain currency while the reward for authoring blocks could be alt chain currency while at the same time insuring that its almost always a different person who gets to author the block on the main chain and the block on the alt chain.

the disadvantage is that you would have to run clients for the main chain and the alt chain at the same time inorder to author blocks on the alt chain. the advantage would come from the fact that the security of nxt is a function of the cost of buying up a significant portion of the total stake. By having the right to author all blocks on all alt chains be attained by owning stake on the main chain value resulting from legitimate utility provided by alt chains strengthens security of all chains rather than only strengthening the security to its own chain.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 10, 2014, 05:13:19 AM
 #42643

what do you think of the idea of having parallel chains that draw security from the price of NXT on the main chain.

One of the reasons for wanting parallel chains is to address the "initial distribution problem" that has lead to clones.

So although it could be something a parallel chain could do I would not at all want that to be mandatory (in fact the parallel chain should be able to use PoW rather than PoS if it likes).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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March 10, 2014, 05:15:15 AM
 #42644

what do you think of the idea of having parallel chains that draw security from the price of NXT on the main chain.

One of the reasons for wanting parallel chains is to address the "initial distribution problem" that has lead to clones.

So although it could be something a parallel chain could do I would not at all want that to be mandatory (in fact the parallel chain should be able to use PoW rather than PoS if it likes).


oh sure. i agree there. choice is always a good thing. let the market decide. im just imagining a future where we have thousands of DAC's, each one needing its own dedicated chain, it would be nice if security could be a function of the value of all chains combined rather than relying on the security provided by their own chain in isolation.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 10, 2014, 05:38:05 AM
 #42645

So,these parallel block chains of Nxt can be called Nxt Blocktree?

No - there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about parallel chains - they are not "connected together" beyond perhaps "checkpoint" AMs being sent to the master chain.

Think of it like Bitcoin and Litecoin - so people talking about "spreading the load" across chains are actually saying that you would go to buy something with 1 BTC and say 100 LTC - personally I don't think any vendor is going to want to bother with that so such ideas are not helpful.

@ChuckOne - TF will be implemented in the main chain so you needn't care if another chain decides not to use TF as you don't need to buy any of those coins (it doesn't matter what you *think* about how someone should create a coin they are going to create one anyway if that's what they want to do).


All of the parallel blockchains can be backed by NXT directly, according to cfb.

BTC and LTC is not a fair comparison. Mining power used to secure BTC cannot be used to secure LTC, for example. In NXT, anyone can support X number of chains simultaneously. It also makes more sense if you think of parallel chains on a more global scale. RMB is not useless because USD is the dominant currency accepted by most vendors, it has its uses within it's sphere of influence. The same with parallel chains - these chains will not likely be straight up clones of NXT (although that is allowed), but they may be tied to a certain market or geographical location.

EDIT: The question also remains as to why we need a single 1000 TPS chain. If I'm going to China, it's really not much trouble to spend 1 NXT to convert any amount of NXTUSA to NXTChina. Why does everyone have to process transactions they are completely unconcerned about (besides profitability, which I mentioned in a previous post) and suffer all the disadvantages (high-bandwidth, bloat, etc.) Let the market forces decide, and all the chains will be secured just as much as they need to be.

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March 10, 2014, 05:43:25 AM
 #42646

All of the parallel blockchains can be backed by NXT directly, according to cfb.

They can be but they shouldn't have to be is the point that is being made here.

Understand that the whole reason to say have a China chain is because they won't be able to work with the main chain at decent speeds because of the GCF (so of course they wouldn't want their chain being dependent upon the stake holders in the main chain).

In regards to the main chain being fast - that is what TF is all about and that is the very point of "the plan". It makes less sense to me for the main chain to be the slower one.

BTW - these same conversations just keep going in pointless circles every day.

Personally I think we just "stick with the plan" and get on with it (otherwise you guys will still be debating in 2015 about what to do by which time Nxt will be irrelevant).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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March 10, 2014, 06:14:20 AM
 #42647

Can someone answer,at least to say it is irrelevant pls??


1- After buying an asset,i saw the option to transfer it to someone.But in there,there is no option to charge any Nxt for it.

So if i want to sell a determined asset,to someone i know,and fix the price privately,do i have to put it in the general AE(risking someone else buys it),or can it be done privately somehow?

I miss in the transfer window,somewhere to put for how much Nxt i want to send it to that account(optional).Or am i missing something?
you can also come here for help.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=507444

 
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March 10, 2014, 06:15:53 AM
 #42648

Proposed limit to forging power aims to avoid pool centralization.

Agreed - but if it wasn't "in the plan" then I don't care if we do it or not.

I think we have shown that it is *impossible* for the people in this topic to ever come to a consensus about anything at all (and perhaps a few of you actually work for Ethereum to ensure exactly that).

I am willing to say "let's just go with the plan" (because it is obvious that we'll never work out another plan).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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March 10, 2014, 06:18:29 AM
 #42649

1- After buying an asset,i saw the option to transfer it to someone.But in there,there is no option to charge any Nxt for it.

So if i want to sell a determined asset,to someone i know,and fix the price privately,do i have to put it in the general AE(risking someone else buys it),or can it be done privately somehow?

I miss in the transfer window,somewhere to put for how much Nxt i want to send it to that account(optional).Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, the transfer feature is just that. Transfer. No money involved by default. There's the "referencedTransaction" parameter (wesleyh's client doesn't show it), but I can't think of a way to atomically involve it with another transaction.

What you're asking would be a nice feature, actually. Anyone care to comment on this?


I am planning on implementing a gateway Escrow function that will perform automatic escrow for private transfers. That is why I asked for a comment field in asset transfer.

The easiest would be to specify in the comment that X amount of NXT needs to be received from buyer's acct #. Then the Escrow just waits to see that transaction in the blockchain and transfers the asset to the buyer. There would need to be an expiration time so you get back the assets if buyer doesnt pay.

If send money also has a comment field, it can also go the other way. buyer would send money to the Escrow with details of assetid and amount that needs to be recieved. When the blockchain shows such transfer has happened, the Escrow releases the funds.

In both cases, the other party will see the transaction sent to the Escrow along with comments.
Even without the comment field, I can implement this using AM. The transaction details are broadcast via AM, then the asset (or NXT) is transfered to Escrow. This will work with existing NXT core, but adds a block delay and also creates the need for Escrow to match up transactions sent to it with the details about it being separate. Much better to bundled them together.

James
sounds very useful for the escrow service.
question is the escrow is automatic or need gateway to release/return the money?

 
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March 10, 2014, 06:21:11 AM
Last edit: March 10, 2014, 06:44:40 AM by Fatih87SK
 #42650

Hi!

I understand we will have a password generator etc. on our wallets.

That's good.

I was thinking what could go wrong when we finish that. The only thing that comes in my mind is that people can forget to save their password that is generated by the client.

So. We have to warn people that the password is very important.

The reason they will forget is that NXT is new. People never had to save their password on other crypto. They just open and close the wallet and everything goes automatically.

This could be the next drama.

But if we partially save the password and the users just have to remember a Pin code. There will be no problems.

Just sayin'

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March 10, 2014, 06:34:58 AM
 #42651

So, using guid we can lookup the txid to verify that Evil Bob's txid he submits is different than the real one and reject him. There is no way for Evil Bob to change the GUID. 10 confirmations is recommended.

Anyone can change transaction. All that u need is to rely on guid.
so,what the difference or relation between guid and TXID?

 
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March 10, 2014, 06:58:03 AM
 #42652

All of the parallel blockchains can be backed by NXT directly, according to cfb.

They can be but they shouldn't have to be is the point that is being made here.

Understand that the whole reason to say have a China chain is because they won't be able to work with the main chain at decent speeds because of the GCF (so of course they wouldn't want their chain being dependent upon the stake holders in the main chain).

In regards to the main chain being fast - that is what TF is all about and that is the very point of "the plan". It makes less sense to me for the main chain to be the slower one.

BTW - these same conversations just keep going in pointless circles every day.

Personally I think we just "stick with the plan" and get on with it (otherwise you guys will still be debating in 2015 about what to do by which time Nxt will be irrelevant).


Well, I offered a scaleable solution - as far as I'm aware, this has not been discussed before. TF can work with an unlimited amount of chains, each chain can have instant transactions, I don't see why this is exclusive. Instant transactions can work with even the slowest chain in the world, as long as TF is enabled. In the case of China, due to the firewall, I'm sure most of the forgers of the China chain will be from within China. But for other less restricted countries, anyone could help secure their chains (and receive fees).

Not sure *why* the master chain has to be fast if it's simply going to become the checkpointing chains for all the slave chains... unless the AE and other features are only enabled on the main chain, then I can see why it would need to be able to support a large number of transactions. Of course, a solution would be to make it so that the AE can trade across chains, but I'm not knowledgeable on if that is possible or not.

I'm sure there will be "high-capacity" chains, but they will be supported because it is economical to do so (equilibrium point between # forgers and fees), not because of altruism or because someone said it had to be that way.

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March 10, 2014, 06:59:00 AM
 #42653

But if we partially save the password and the users just have to remember a Pin code. There will be no problems.

The password can be saved to the hard drive encrypted by user's own password.  That user password doesn't have to be very strong.

Though the the user has to be careful to backup the file, in case of hard drive crash.

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March 10, 2014, 07:14:56 AM
 #42654

... my point here is that the NXT client is really un-user-friendly. I like the idea of having ur password as your login, but most users are not accustomed to such a system. the NXTcoin teams needs to seriously educate users properly about how to manage the wallet etc.
- didn't you read this
Quote
If opening a new account, please note:
A simple passphrase will certainly result in your NXT being stolen! Do not use any phrase that appears in any printed or online material, no matter how long or obscure. A secure passphrase will be at least 35 characters long and consist of random letters, numbers, and special characters, or a meaningless combination of 10 random words.
when you create your account?

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March 10, 2014, 07:28:20 AM
 #42655

When people first open the client an account is automatically generated and people can receive coin immediatly . The password is saved in a "wallet.dat" equivalent. The user doesn't have to know it unless he search for it.
- you forget to add "IMHO".

How many times need I repeat to close-minded people:
...
All  clients should have password management system.  The client should generate cryptographically secure passwords and save them on hard disk in wallet.dat  ...
- I'm strongly disagree with this. This feature should be an option.

BCNext made brain wallet in Nxt on purpose. Russian government says, that those, who use any crypto, is a terrorist.

So wallet.dat is a proof that you have account in Nxt, so you are terrorist. Whilst brain wallet mean that you do not leave any trace on your hard disk.

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, the Next platform.  Magis quam Moneta (More than a Coin)
2Kool4Skewl
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March 10, 2014, 07:38:35 AM
 #42656

When people first open the client an account is automatically generated and people can receive coin immediatly . The password is saved in a "wallet.dat" equivalent. The user doesn't have to know it unless he search for it.
- you forget to add "IMHO".

How many times need I repeat to close-minded people:
...
All  clients should have password management system.  The client should generate cryptographically secure passwords and save them on hard disk in wallet.dat  ...
- I'm strongly disagree with this. This feature should be an option.

BCNext made brain wallet in Nxt on purpose. Russian government says, that those, who use any crypto, is a terrorist.

So wallet.dat is a proof that you have account in Nxt, so you are terrorist. Whilst brain wallet mean that you do not leave any trace on your hard disk.

There should be an option to either "save" or "do not save" your password to local disk.


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l8orre
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March 10, 2014, 07:44:26 AM
 #42657

I pushed code that supports GUIDs. When Jean-Luc puts it into the production exchanges will be able to use guids to track transactions without worrying about transaction malleability. NIP #1 is not ready yet so I created the solution as I felt it should be.



@CfB, Jean-Luc

I have a request there -

When you modify/extend the API please make sure to issue some kind of a notification so that client devs can track the changes!

For example, somehow I managed to miss the 'stopForging' and 'startForging' calls - I plugged them in afterwards, but still...

Would these new calls have been mentioned in the release notes?

Please include new/modified API calls in the future in the release notes, or if I just missed it, drop me a hint, that I can pay more specific attention to the release notes in the future

abctc
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March 10, 2014, 07:46:48 AM
 #42658

can someone send me some testNXT.  
- if someone needs testNXT, ask them here: https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=832

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, the Next platform.  Magis quam Moneta (More than a Coin)
bitcoinpaul
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March 10, 2014, 07:47:40 AM
 #42659


In regards to the main chain being fast - that is what TF is all about and that is the very point of "the plan". It makes less sense to me for the main chain to be the slower one.

BTW - these same conversations just keep going in pointless circles every day.

Personally I think we just "stick with the plan" and get on with it (otherwise you guys will still be debating in 2015 about what to do by which time Nxt will be irrelevant).



I think we have shown that it is *impossible* for the people in this topic to ever come to a consensus about anything at all (and perhaps a few of you actually work for Ethereum to ensure exactly that).

I am willing to say "let's just go with the plan" (because it is obvious that we'll never work out another plan).


+1

I think not everyone reads the whole thread before he is posting his ideas. That helps with the pointless circling Wink
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March 10, 2014, 07:52:44 AM
 #42660

... my point here is that the NXT client is really un-user-friendly. I like the idea of having ur password as your login, but most users are not accustomed to such a system. the NXTcoin teams needs to seriously educate users properly about how to manage the wallet etc.
- didn't you read this
Quote
If opening a new account, please note:
A simple passphrase will certainly result in your NXT being stolen! Do not use any phrase that appears in any printed or online material, no matter how long or obscure. A secure passphrase will be at least 35 characters long and consist of random letters, numbers, and special characters, or a meaningless combination of 10 random words.
when you create your account?

People don't read everything if anything at all when signing up on sites or entering passwords. Just adding some text doesn't resolve this problem.


NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
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