NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[Meizirkki]

People lose their coins because of a weak password they can only blame themselved. If they lose their coins because they did not understand what a wallet.dat is,where it is why and how to take a backup, they will sure blame the software for being so difficult.

Wallet.dat should be an advanced feature.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Any suggestions about Parallel Chains? If not then I'll stick to BCNext's draft.

Suggestion:
- SCIP mechanism to count blocks in order to have snapshot every 1440 blocks


Question:
Will snapshots integrated for free?

For fee.

[bitcoinpaul]

I bring forward a motion for Jean-Luc to modify the NRS client to check string length of the passphrase and reject it if less than 15 characters AND it has zero transactions. (dont want to lock out any people that do have NXT with a 15 char password)

Here's my new logic for my client http://nxtra.org/nxt-client (to be available later today, not yet uploaded)

Thoughts?

Thoughts: Implement this ASAP, and sort out the wallet.dat discussion later.

Do not get sidetracked into that discussion and then wait

It may not be *perfect* but it's WAY better than what we have.

+1

[bitcoinpaul]

I vote for no wallet.dat as the default option. It's one of the things most confusing to bitcoin newbies.

But its really less confusing for newbie than Brainwallet / current wesley implementation

No.

you cant just come in here and say no and leave it at that.  read my argument and refute it.  that is if you want reasonable discourse, otherwise you get ignored.  seriously tell us why "no".

People lose their coins because of a weak password they can only blame themselved. If they lose their coins because they did not understand what a wallet.dat is,where it is why and how to take a backup, they will sure blame the software for being so difficult.

Wallet.dat should be an advanced feature.

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

[martismartis]

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

[zorke]

I bring forward a motion for Jean-Luc to modify the NRS client to check string length of the passphrase and reject it if less than 15 characters AND it has zero transactions. (dont want to lock out any people that do have NXT with a 15 char password)

Here's my new logic for my client http://nxtra.org/nxt-client (to be available later today, not yet uploaded)

Thoughts?

Thoughts: Implement this ASAP, and sort out the wallet.dat discussion later.

Do not get sidetracked into that discussion and then wait

It may not be *perfect* but it's WAY better than what we have.

+1

[wesleyh]

I bring forward a motion for Jean-Luc to modify the NRS client to check string length of the passphrase and reject it if less than 15 characters AND it has zero transactions. (dont want to lock out any people that do have NXT with a 15 char password)

Here's my new logic for my client http://nxtra.org/nxt-client (to be available later today, not yet uploaded)

Thoughts?

Thoughts: Implement this ASAP, and sort out the wallet.dat discussion later.

Do not get sidetracked into that discussion and then wait

It may not be *perfect* but it's WAY better than what we have.

I agree, keep main track as is while we discuss the nxtwallet.dat default method.

I'm keeping on track, wallet.dat is for later.

Problem with wallet.dat is security restrictions. For example, you will not be able to use a "wallet.dat" if you want to access an online web client (which some nodes may want to make available). (If you think of wallet.dat as a separate file). However it would be possible to save it in a websql/indexeddb database instead. Only the URL that makes the database can read it, so it should be safe.

For my downloadable client, the restriction should not apply and any file should be able to be used as a wallet.dat

[wesleyh]

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

Yep, it's not under transactions. I'll be adding something that notifies you though, based on it checking your account state and will notify you of x units of whatever item bought / sold (but not in terms of nxt gained / lost)

[MyZhre]

There is a big difference between bitcoin core devs and NXT devs, unlike bitcoin core devs, NXT guys wont be arguing that "1 + 1 = 1"

I also doubt any would gleefully destroy other coins with 51% attacks and brag about it

Analyze the "Compuserve vs Internet" as it played out in the market. Why did compuserve lose its dominant position to the Internet?

When you are in a stable market (<10% per year growth), then by all means monetize till the cows come home. Keep adding charges, fees, restrictions. Abuse your customer base, squeeze out all the money you can. Just make sure to monitor growth rates and back off if you start hurting it more than you gain.

When you are in an exponentially growing market, every customer today represents ten or a hundred future customers. This means is it "penny wise, pound foolish" to put any restrictions of any form on customer acquisition and retention. I dont think anybody can credibly argue with the math.

[martismartis]

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

Yep, it's not under transactions. I'll be adding something that notifies you though, based on it checking your account state and will notify you of x units of whatever item bought / sold (but not in terms of nxt gained / lost)

Ok, thank you.

I meant, I see changes in dashboard->account balance total sum, but in recent transactions there are only actions, like bid or ask, and just paid fees for this.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Any suggestions about Parallel Chains? If not then I'll stick to BCNext's draft.

Some average joe questions:

1) Can anybody register a slave chain anytime?
2) Does the slave coin transaction require nxt as fee?
3) What's the benefit been a slave chain, 51% attack resistance? direct trade with nxt?
4) How difficult to create a slave chain? compare to clone bitcoin/litecoin or NXT

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Not difficult

[wesleyh]

Hi Wesleyh

While you are alive and online, please answer me, I'm repeating.

Testing AE. Using NxtWallet. Have question as simple Joe:

Did I miss somewhere, but how to know at which price I bought asset or when and for what price I sold an asset? I don't see anything in transactions and my assets.

Could somebody point me if it is?

Yep, it's not under transactions. I'll be adding something that notifies you though, based on it checking your account state and will notify you of x units of whatever item bought / sold (but not in terms of nxt gained / lost)

Ok, thank you.

I meant, I see changes in dashboard->account balance total sum, but in recent transactions there are only actions, like bid or ask, and just paid fees for this.

Yep, it doesn't create transactions. I was flustered at first too..

[bidji29]

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

[wesleyh]

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

They do need to know there's a brainwallet, as it should be a) encrypted, b) backed up by the user. Otherwise the same situation as we have now could arise. (computer crash -> nxt lost, etc).

[opticalcarrier]

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

This is obviously not the case.  Your argument is EXACTLY why people are losing money - even just now you called it a password.  ITS NOT A PASSWORD ITS A PASSPHRASE there is a huge difference in the NXT application with a live public blockchain.  People are treating this passphrase entry box exactly like you just called it (password) like they treat any password box they see, and people are still losing their NXT due to shitty passphrases, even with our best efforts at prevention with the warning we put up in NRS.  Have you read it?

On the other hand, .dat functionality is already in use by probably millions of people by now with BTC and other bitcoins.  And there are tons of existing data backup options for users.

Im not saying to get rid of brainwallet; its an extremely cool feature and required for online wallets.  But its apparent that many people cannot handle it.

It is bad practice to just say "well too bad for those dumbasses, they just cant handle it"  We might could have got away with it had brainwallet come out before .dat file storage did, but we didnt.

[MyZhre]

Some average joe questions:

1) Can anybody register a slave chain anytime?
2) Does the slave coin transaction require nxt as fee?
3) What's the benefit been a slave chain, 51% attack resistance? direct trade with nxt?
4) How difficult to create a slave chain? compare to clone bitcoin/litecoin or NXT

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Not difficult
[/quote]

Thanks, I think I need a chain for my really GREAT idea (well, at least i think so)!

[bitcoinpaul]

optical, bidji29. i think you are (we all are) biased because we know this shit for a long time. what the fuck is a wallet file. but a password, hell, everybody knows that.

But newbie don't even need to know there is a wallet.dat when they first launch the client. They directly have an account and can send NXT on it.
It's an easier solution.

I'm only talking about the first second after someone launch the client, because that's the most important ones. It's the key.
Each additional step neccesary to use NXT = Less people who will bother

Come on. Do you really think a wallet file, which can get corrupted, or lost ("oh i deleted the program folder, didn't know that...."), or not found ("where is the fucking folder") is easier than a "please write this down"?

[BrianNowhere]

I have a question about this.

If the password cracker knows what dictionary you are using, couldn't they just make a database of these words and cycle through every possible combination of said words instead of cycling through letter by letter?  

Yes, and now calculate the combinations and come back with the number

I have not the math skills to do even this.

1600 * 10 = 160,000  
ok, I'm lost.

I was just wondering if the security level is the same if you change the brute force method in this way or if it decreases at all.

We make it simple. Imagine each word is a character, as you suggested. But now, for every of the 12 characters we type, we can choose out of 1626 characters.

First character (word): 1626 possibilities
Second character (word): 1626 possibilities
....

Now calculate. You can do it. Math is cool.

I agree math is cool. It's even cooler to me cause I'm pretty bad with it. Embarrassingly so, especially since I've done some programming.
It usually takes me a while when I get to the math parts. I even calculated the above wrong (1600 * 10 - 160,000?) and tried to fix it before someone capped it. fail.

Would it be


1626¹⁰

or

1.2918301e+32

[bitcoinpaul]

Any suggestions about Parallel Chains? If not then I'll stick to BCNext's draft.

What is his draft exactly? Some of his suggestions wouldn't make sense now.

[bitcoinpaul]

Would it be


1626¹⁰

Why 10?