NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[jl777]

Ripple is centralized.

No it's not. Their network is decentralized. Sure they have pre-mine, but so do we.

Because Ripple’s exchange is distributed as opposed to centralized, the whole concept of co-location becomes fundamentally different. There is simply no central location near which you would co-locate for a speed advantage. Ripple exists on servers around the world, and anyone can easily spin up their own copy of a Ripple server for free. (The code is open source.)

https://ripple.com/blog/ripples-distributed-exchange-and-the-high-frequency-trading-arms-race/

Maybe there are many nodes but their solution to the byzantine generals problem is the same one that has been used for thousands of years, central authority. If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them. That is precisely the problem that bitcoin solved and ripple unsolved.

Please expand?

I'm not a Ripple expert, but I believe the keyword is "distributed". Big difference. If they could claim decentralized, they would. My understanding is that all transactions on the Ripple network depend on trust relationships between gateways, which act as the authority.

Here's an article I found helpful when trying to understand Ripple:
http://blog.coinsetter.com/2013/04/29/virtual-currency-trading-wars-bitcoin-versus-ripple-xrp/

Gateways deal with all the govt regulations and the issuing of IOUs into the ripple network. Once in the ripple network, all the trades, etc. are done via consensus of distributed rippled servers. The gateways are not directly involved in ripple network transactions other than redemptions.

Not sure of the number of non-RL servers, but my guess is around 100 total rippled servers are running.

James

[mynxtcoin]

a sneak peak to my idea about a green Nxt video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic_WLMPX888&feature=youtu.be

Wow, way cool dude

[NxtChg]

If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them.

Why? For technical or political reasons? Can you give a link to read about that?

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

Leveraging contacts... want to get the ball rolling:

https://bittylicious.com/

Is there anyone with a UK based bank account willing to sell their Nxt (you name the price) for a service such as Bittylicious?  I've been in contact with Marc quite a bit for Peercoin and want to start the ball rolling here.


If you're interested, please drop me a PM.  This is a VERY EASY way to get Nxt into the hands of new people.

[bithic]

Maybe there are many nodes but their solution to the byzantine generals problem is the same one that has been used for thousands of years, central authority. If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them. That is precisely the problem that bitcoin solved and ripple unsolved.

Please expand?

I'm not a Ripple expert, but I believe the keyword is "distributed". Big difference. If they could claim decentralized, they would. My understanding is that all transactions on the Ripple network depend on trust relationships between gateways, which act as the authority.

Here's an article I found helpful when trying to understand Ripple:
http://blog.coinsetter.com/2013/04/29/virtual-currency-trading-wars-bitcoin-versus-ripple-xrp/

Gateways deal with all the govt regulations and the issuing of IOUs into the ripple network. Once in the ripple network, all the trades, etc. are done via consensus of distributed rippled servers. The gateways are not directly involved in ripple network transactions other than redemptions.

Not sure of the number of non-RL servers, but my guess is around 100 total rippled servers are running.

James

Ah, so the trust relationship is between the ripple servers. Got it. So, if the server operators (Ripple Foundation, governments, banks?) ever collude to come to a consensus that supports a dishonest transaction, there would be no way to prove otherwise, because the transaction confirmation depends on their consensus rather than a decentralized processing of the blockchain?

So the difference between Ripple and all truly decentralized cryptocurrencies is that all Ripple users have to trust the people who control the servers (i.e. the Ripple Foundation). A true crypto like Bitcoin or Nxt is entirely trustless in operation.

I think there should be an article on this in the Nxt wiki, because once our decentralized exchange comes out, a lot of people will be asking what the benefit over Ripple is.

*EDIT* This post is still rather confused on the issue. jl777 explains further a bit later on.

[EvilDave]

Hey, NXT crew ! Top o' the evening to ya...!

@CfB..u still got your appendix....in you or in a jar?
Good to have u back, bro, but don't work too hard.

On the logo/colours issue: I like titanium and I like this turbine shape:



And I like stainless steel:



Just putting these up here as inspiration for designers. Pretty much every alt-coin logo is either gold or silver, titanium or stainless steel feels like a better fit with NXT for me. More industrial, to reflect NXTs many uses......not just money.

Dropping back into stealth mode.....

[kunibopl]

How about... a transparent nxt monolith.
Proportions 1:4:9 as in 2001: A Space Odyssey

Where can I buy one of these to put on my desk?

Or maybe it could be my desk.

let's 3D print, engrave with QR-code or something to represent a colored coin.
or just 3D print and deploy as marketing article.

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

http://www.cryptmarketcap.com/

Nxt added.

[gvans]

How about... a transparent nxt monolith.
Proportions 1:4:9 as in 2001: A Space Odyssey

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18301977/gvans%20nxt%20monolith1.png

Where can I buy one of these to put on my desk?

Or maybe it could be my desk.

let's 3D print, engrave with QR-code or something to represent a colored coin.
or just 3D print and deploy as marketing article.

Actually.. these could be even more easily produced from coloured transparent acrylic with high-pressure water jet cutting.

[bithic]

Leveraging contacts... want to get the ball rolling:

https://bittylicious.com/

Is there anyone with a UK based bank account willing to sell their Nxt (you name the price) for a service such as Bittylicious?  I've been in contact with Marc quite a bit for Peercoin and want to start the ball rolling here.


If you're interested, please drop me a PM.  This is a VERY EASY way to get Nxt into the hands of new people.

Cool! Hope it works out!

[jl777]

Maybe there are many nodes but their solution to the byzantine generals problem is the same one that has been used for thousands of years, central authority. If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them. That is precisely the problem that bitcoin solved and ripple unsolved.

Please expand?

I'm not a Ripple expert, but I believe the keyword is "distributed". Big difference. If they could claim decentralized, they would. My understanding is that all transactions on the Ripple network depend on trust relationships between gateways, which act as the authority.

Here's an article I found helpful when trying to understand Ripple:
http://blog.coinsetter.com/2013/04/29/virtual-currency-trading-wars-bitcoin-versus-ripple-xrp/

Gateways deal with all the govt regulations and the issuing of IOUs into the ripple network. Once in the ripple network, all the trades, etc. are done via consensus of distributed rippled servers. The gateways are not directly involved in ripple network transactions other than redemptions.

Not sure of the number of non-RL servers, but my guess is around 100 total rippled servers are running.

James

Ah, so the trust relationship is between the ripple servers. Got it. So, if the server operators (Ripple Foundation, governments, banks?) ever collude to come to a consensus that supports a dishonest transaction, there would be no way to prove otherwise, because the transaction confirmation depends on their consensus rather than a decentralized processing of the blockchain?

So the difference between Ripple and all truly decentralized cryptocurrencies is that all Ripple users have to trust the people who control the servers (i.e. the Ripple Foundation). A true crypto like Bitcoin or Nxt is entirely trustless in operation.

I think there should be an article on this in the Nxt wiki, because once our decentralized exchange comes out, a lot of people will be asking what the benefit over Ripple is.

No, you have it not quite right.

The trust relationships are purely between gateways and the customers. This is the way Ripple avoids darkNXT equivalent. Not only does an account have to be funded with a minimal amount of XRP (currently 20 XRP min), in order to accept a specific IOU, the user has to specifically set a trust line for that specific issue from that specific issuer with a specific maximum.

It is a real pain in the ass, but it pretty much eliminates any chance of ending up sending something to the wrong address.

So, once you get your acct funded and establish a trust line (just filling out a form from your wallet), then you can receive the IOU. You make a fiat deposit to your gateway, then the fiat is exchanged for the IOU.

Similar to NXT's Asset Exchange at the high level, with some very big differences.

a) In ripple anybody can issue any asset, I think three characters is the limit for Asset name. So in essence each asset gets variants, eg. BTC.bitstamp, NXT.peercover, etc

b) Ripple requires minimal XRP balance to do anything, including establishing a trust line or making a trade offer, so really 30 XRP is the practical minimum.

c) Ripple requires a trust line to be established before anybody can receive that issue. However, you can directly purchase it from the orderbook without any trustline

d) There is this thing called "rippling", which allows the ripple network to automatically convert IOU from one issuer to another issuer of the same asset, if you have it enabled. Pretty nasty if your USD.bitstamp gets rippled into USD.snapswap! USD.snapswap trades at 10% discount to USD.bitstamp. There is even an evil bot in ripple land that searches for hapless newbies that allow rippling between USD.bitstamp and USD.snapswap and automatically converts it. The bot makes an immediate gain of 5% to 10%

So, if anybody is afraid about ripple competing with NXT, rest assured, it can't. Ripple is designed for mass market consumers to exchange their local currency to another currency, across the world.

As far as the servers go, unless some entity gets control of 51% of servers, I doubt any funny business is possible. Everything is in a public ledger. Ripple is basically firstgen as far as immunity from 51% attack goes, eg. not immune at all. Very unlikely ripple would attack its own network as they need it to expand so they can continue to add the 48 billion XRP stockpile into the network.

Nothing is perfect and ripple is no exception. It does have a lot of corporate backing and it does have some utility, so it won't go away. I just don't see it growing by leaps and bounds. That being said, XRP value could easily double or triple or lose 50%, as it is not very liquid at all. Total daily volume of XRP trades are less than $250,000/day for all issues in ripple.

This is why I keep saying Ripple's function is to be a gateway of fiat <-> crypto, including NXT.

James

[tman10]

a sneak peak to my idea about a green Nxt video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic_WLMPX888&feature=youtu.be

Wow, way cool dude

Awesome!!!!

[bithic]

Maybe there are many nodes but their solution to the byzantine generals problem is the same one that has been used for thousands of years, central authority. If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them. That is precisely the problem that bitcoin solved and ripple unsolved.

Please expand?

I'm not a Ripple expert, but I believe the keyword is "distributed". Big difference. If they could claim decentralized, they would. My understanding is that all transactions on the Ripple network depend on trust relationships between gateways, which act as the authority.

Here's an article I found helpful when trying to understand Ripple:
http://blog.coinsetter.com/2013/04/29/virtual-currency-trading-wars-bitcoin-versus-ripple-xrp/

Gateways deal with all the govt regulations and the issuing of IOUs into the ripple network. Once in the ripple network, all the trades, etc. are done via consensus of distributed rippled servers. The gateways are not directly involved in ripple network transactions other than redemptions.

Not sure of the number of non-RL servers, but my guess is around 100 total rippled servers are running.

James

Ah, so the trust relationship is between the ripple servers. Got it. So, if the server operators (Ripple Foundation, governments, banks?) ever collude to come to a consensus that supports a dishonest transaction, there would be no way to prove otherwise, because the transaction confirmation depends on their consensus rather than a decentralized processing of the blockchain?

So the difference between Ripple and all truly decentralized cryptocurrencies is that all Ripple users have to trust the people who control the servers (i.e. the Ripple Foundation). A true crypto like Bitcoin or Nxt is entirely trustless in operation.

I think there should be an article on this in the Nxt wiki, because once our decentralized exchange comes out, a lot of people will be asking what the benefit over Ripple is.

No, you have it not quite right.

The trust relationships are purely between gateways and the customers. This is the way Ripple avoids darkNXT equivalent. Not only does an account have to be funded with a minimal amount of XRP (currently 20 XRP min), in order to accept a specific IOU, the user has to specifically set a trust line for that specific issue from that specific issuer with a specific maximum.

It is a real pain in the ass, but it pretty much eliminates any chance of ending up sending something to the wrong address.

So, once you get your acct funded and establish a trust line (just filling out a form from your wallet), then you can receive the IOU. You make a fiat deposit to your gateway, then the fiat is exchanged for the IOU.

Similar to NXT's Asset Exchange at the high level, with some very big differences.

a) In ripple anybody can issue any asset, I think three characters is the limit for Asset name. So in essence each asset gets variants, eg. BTC.bitstamp, NXT.peercover, etc

b) Ripple requires minimal XRP balance to do anything, including establishing a trust line or making a trade offer, so really 30 XRP is the practical minimum.

c) Ripple requires a trust line to be established before anybody can receive that issue. However, you can directly purchase it from the orderbook without any trustline

d) There is this thing called "rippling", which allows the ripple network to automatically convert IOU from one issuer to another issuer of the same asset, if you have it enabled. Pretty nasty if your USD.bitstamp gets rippled into USD.snapswap! USD.snapswap trades at 10% discount to USD.bitstamp. There is even an evil bot in ripple land that searches for hapless newbies that allow rippling between USD.bitstamp and USD.snapswap and automatically converts it. The bot makes an immediate gain of 5% to 10%

So, if anybody is afraid about ripple competing with NXT, rest assured, it can't. Ripple is designed for mass market consumers to exchange their local currency to another currency, across the world.

As far as the servers go, unless some entity gets control of 51% of servers, I doubt any funny business is possible. Everything is in a public ledger. Ripple is basically firstgen as far as immunity from 51% attack goes, eg. not immune at all. Very unlikely ripple would attack its own network as they need it to expand so they can continue to add the 48 billion XRP stockpile into the network.

Nothing is perfect and ripple is no exception. It does have a lot of corporate backing and it does have some utility, so it won't go away. I just don't see it growing by leaps and bounds. That being said, XRP value could easily double or triple or lose 50%, as it is not very liquid at all. Total daily volume of XRP trades are less than $250,000/day for all issues in ripple.

This is why I keep saying Ripple's function is to be a gateway of fiat <-> crypto, including NXT.

James

Thanks for the explanation James! Any thoughts on writing something on this for the wiki? You could use what you just wrote as the base.

[opticalcarrier]

http://www.cryptmarketcap.com/

Nxt added.

dude you are so page 1314

lol not being rude, just always wanted to do that, im very sorry it was you

[Anon136]

Ripple is centralized.

No it's not. Their network is decentralized. Sure they have pre-mine, but so do we.

Because Ripple’s exchange is distributed as opposed to centralized, the whole concept of co-location becomes fundamentally different. There is simply no central location near which you would co-locate for a speed advantage. Ripple exists on servers around the world, and anyone can easily spin up their own copy of a Ripple server for free. (The code is open source.)

https://ripple.com/blog/ripples-distributed-exchange-and-the-high-frequency-trading-arms-race/

Maybe there are many nodes but their solution to the byzantine generals problem is the same one that has been used for thousands of years, central authority. If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them. That is precisely the problem that bitcoin solved and ripple unsolved.

Please expand?

I'm not a Ripple expert, but I believe the keyword is "distributed". Big difference. If they could claim decentralized, they would. My understanding is that all transactions on the Ripple network depend on trust relationships between gateways, which act as the authority.

Here's an article I found helpful when trying to understand Ripple:
http://blog.coinsetter.com/2013/04/29/virtual-currency-trading-wars-bitcoin-versus-ripple-xrp/

Oh yea distributed sure. Decentralized is the hard part. I'm not a ripple expert either all i know is they don't use mining and if they had found a new novel solution to the byzantine generals problem than it would have made waves and i would have heard about it.

[opticalcarrier]

http://www.cryptmarketcap.com/

Nxt added.

dude you are so page 1341.

lol not being rude, just always wanted to do that, im very sorry it was you

dude, there is no page 1341 ;P

wow what a time for my dyslexia and incompetent typing to kick in, guess i deserved that 

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

http://www.cryptmarketcap.com/

Nxt added.

dude you are so page 1341.

lol not being rude, just always wanted to do that, im very sorry it was you

dude, there is no page 1341 ;P

wow what a time for my dyslexia and incompetent typing to kick in, guess i deserved that 

It's one of those days.

[jl777]

Ripple is centralized.

No it's not. Their network is decentralized. Sure they have pre-mine, but so do we.

Because Ripple’s exchange is distributed as opposed to centralized, the whole concept of co-location becomes fundamentally different. There is simply no central location near which you would co-locate for a speed advantage. Ripple exists on servers around the world, and anyone can easily spin up their own copy of a Ripple server for free. (The code is open source.)

https://ripple.com/blog/ripples-distributed-exchange-and-the-high-frequency-trading-arms-race/

Maybe there are many nodes but their solution to the byzantine generals problem is the same one that has been used for thousands of years, central authority. If the ripple foundation was ever compromised than ripple would not be able to continue without them. That is precisely the problem that bitcoin solved and ripple unsolved.

Please expand?

I'm not a Ripple expert, but I believe the keyword is "distributed". Big difference. If they could claim decentralized, they would. My understanding is that all transactions on the Ripple network depend on trust relationships between gateways, which act as the authority.

Here's an article I found helpful when trying to understand Ripple:
http://blog.coinsetter.com/2013/04/29/virtual-currency-trading-wars-bitcoin-versus-ripple-xrp/

Oh yea distributed sure. Decentralized is the hard part. I'm not a ripple expert either all i know is they don't use mining and if they had found a new novel solution to the byzantine generals problem than it would have made waves and i would have heard about it.

rippled source code has been open for a while. My guess is that ripple needs to have 2/3'rds of the nodes following the rules to avoid the traitor general problem, so like bitcoin it can be attacked with 33%

ripple is summarized as colored coins implemented ontop of firstgen blockchain algos

James

[Anon136]

Ya know what i was thinking today? of course you don't thats why I'm about to tell you.

I've been hearing a lot of criticism of bitcoin lately from the potential for altcoins to erode the trust in the concept of digital scarcity. Most notably the interview with adam back on lets talk bitcoin. By building decentralized exchange into the bottom protocol layer I think nxt can potentially restore this trust. Think about it, no other copy of nxt will ever have markets with as much market depth as nxt. Meaning their copy nxt will never has as much utility. Thus a copy of nxt is not "just as good as nxt". Since no copy of nxt will ever be "just as good as nxt" nxt can be thought of as scarce in a way that bitcoin can not.

I think this could be added to our list of "core arguments" in favor of nxt.

Couldn't some other crypto also implement a decentralized exchange into its protocol and compete to gain market depth based on that + some extra advantage that they claim to have?

Yea they could in theory. But it wouldn't be like just making a doge and having something thats more or less functionally equivalent to bitcoin. It would have to find some way to build that utility. In a situation where nxt had first mover advantage there wouldnt be any incentive for traders to want to operate in that alternative market when it had low depth, thus it would be difficult for it to ever achieve great depth. Not imposable but difficult. And if this altcoin did manage to pass nxt and become the main trading platform than the same argument would then apply to that coin. Meaning either way the faith in digital scarcity is restored. It doesnt need to be imposable to expand the money supply, only difficult. like gold its not imposable to get more of it, just hard.

[opticalcarrier]

Hey everyone,  our block explorer from nexern (who totally rocks, btw) now has an official name as a NXT Foundation participant and can be accessed at http://blocks.nxtcrypto.org/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=10