NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[Jerical13]

What James is saying is if one day the big money (hedge funds, institutional investors, "Visa-scale" institutions...) wants to trade on NXT asset exchange, for them to acquire or dispose of that many Nxtcoins will soak up all the liquidity in the NXT markets and cause the price to whipsaw....because they are forced to do transactions denominated in NXT. This means the big money would never get into NXT because they would self-destruct the NXT economy.

The alternative is to have assets CHASE.USD where Chase Bank issues US$1 billion worth and let people trade Chase.USD directly for other assets, and only pay for their transaction fees in Nxt.

Right now if I want to buy an asset, I have to use NXT, which is fine when you're dealing with small time stuff.

I think he has a good point and I can't think of a way to refute it.

James, maybe this message would be better off in the asset exchange thread?

You'll get more traction there rather than get buried ITT.

If it were possible to create a Chase.USD client that could operate within the NXT blockchain, and allow for purchasing goods and services and charge a fee in NXT for transactions, it would create an outlet that would encourage usage of the NXT network as a tool for commerce, and it would also create a valueing demand for the NXT currency. To modify AE transactions to create less of a demand for NXT is without a doubt economically counterproductive, and in my opinion should not be done. From a capitalist free market stand point, creating a demand for a commodity or asset or product or currency, that can't be filled is a good thing, as value is determined by what the market will bare.

Allowing other currencies this type of influence in the NXT ecosystem would be bad, and could potential put fiats or any other currency in a network controlling position. NXT currency HAS to be the base currency (in my opinion).

[wesleyh]

I already have (client side) contacts in my web client. Check it out. An asset will show up as issued by "Bob" if you have set that person up as a contact.

Ok I went into the assett exchange and clicked on "assett issuer" which gave me the issuers public address. I then went in a created a new contact with that address and named it "BOOB SELLER".

What I think might solve a lot of the problems you are referring to is if now when I went back into the Asset Exchange and looked at BOOBS
that any assets being issues by "BOOB SELLER" would be readily apparent in that window. I'd know "BOOB SELLER" was a trusted vendor of boobs and would choose his assets. Would also be nice to be able to filter the BOOBS sell order so only "BOOB SELLER" showed up there so I know that if I buy BOOBS I am only buying them from that seller..

Well there is right click , add to group functionality in the sidebar.

[Jerical13]

[Math Lesson]

Q1. Do you want USD assets to exist within NXT AE?

yes

Q2. How much USD assets do you want deposited into NXT AE?
a) $100,000 USD
b) $1 million USD
c) $1 billion USD

d) $100 billion - ten times current Bitcoin cap


Q3. If all AE trades are denominated in NXT, then how do you propose actually dealing with $1 billion USD deposit.

NXT decimalization, preferably to at least six places (0.000001 NXT) to accommodate both microfee payments and $100 billion total asset exchange valuation.  With NXT = $1000 each, a $1 billion asset would be worth 1M NXT and we could handle 1000 of these on the exchange.  At this valuation, available NXT = 1 trillion dollars (only 5% of CURRENT US Federal debt), 1 USD = 0.001 NXT and 1 cent = 0.00001 and one NXT usage fee would be 0.000001 NXT or one-tenth of 1 cent.

Q4. Are you still 100% sure that you want to restrict all AE trading to be in NXT?

Hell yes.

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

The sequence of events has to be:
1) big money comes into NXT
2) NXT becomes worth big money

By restricting to NXT trading, we limit the total  value of new assets coming into NXT AE to the market value of the NXT. The way people start getting astronomical (moon talk) when there is a 1 million NXT order, the amount of liquid NXT that wont change the market price much is LESS than 1 million NXT.

Let us say that we can be generous and just pretend a 1 million NXT order is routine. Let us assume NXT goes back to being worth 5 cents. this means that if more than $50,000 worth of assets comes into the market, it will start moving the price. If $500,000 comes in, it will dramatically move the price. If $5 million comes in, the price is doubled or tripled. If $50 million comes in, it goes up 100 fold.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person putting all this money. Your asset (whatever it is) has just depreciated 99% because of what you did. Of course, if you just issue the asset and nobody trades it for whatever reason, there wont be any effect, but there wont be any benefit either. The idea is for assets to come in and get traded to some extent, otherwise it is just "NXT A", not "NXT AE"

So if you wanted to sell $50 million worth of assets via NXT AE for NXT, when would you stop selling? When you started getting 80% of initial price? 50%? 10%? 5%? 1%?

The financial pain will be so great to anybody that tries this in spite of this math that they will be forced to stop. I would imagine around the 80% of initial price level.

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT. [Edit: keeping the price of NXT at 5 cents]

James

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

[Come-from-Beyond]

nxt gives meaning to the term dumpcoin the only coin where they dump without pump

maybe you should consider name change 

Bravo, keep posting!

[bidji29]

James,

I think you aren't taking into account that whoever has the NXT doesn't want USD's. If I had a large vestment in NXT (which unfortunately I don't), why would I want to trade it for an inferior currency like USD's? To get me to come of off my NXT you are going to pay MY price. If any other currency other than the NXT currency is given influence like this in the NXT ecosystem, it would automatically denominate the NXT currency to a point of weakness in terms of value for negotiation and purchasing power. NXT currency should be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem (imo).

USD is currently the world currency. Everyone know it. That's why people want to use it, even if it's "inferior".

NXT will be the dominant currency in the NXT ecosystem no matter what, because that's just logic. But we need to let people make their choice and don't enforce our currency.

[mthcl]

Again on this "true randomization" issue. In general, what amount of randomization is desirable, i.e., how often should it happen? If not very often (e.g., several times a day), then the real world will take care of this (because nodes go online and offline, money are transferred, etc.).

If this is not enough, then the following procedure is possible. First X accounts (w.r.t. the inverse weights) choose some "random" numbers locally, and publish their hashes. X is supposed to be large enough so that the bad guy would never control exactly all of them. Then, they publish numbers themselves; if the published number does not correspond to the hash or is not published at all, then the corresponding account is heavily penalized. If that happens for at least one account, the whole procedure is invalidated (and we wait for the next try)..

For now, I don't see how this can be gamed...

[rdanneskjoldr]

Twitter kind of had the same problem with usernames, and everything is fine.Even some big companies had to add a number or letter to their brand name,because it was already taken, or buy it for not a lot of money,as it isnt such a big problem.Then the name that appears on your profile can be repeated,and people is used to going to the official website or googling to verify which account is the official one of who they want to follow. They follow it,and never see fake ones again.

[TwinWinNerD]

How about we make a prove of work scheme to get asset names? Like vanity addresses. But we only show the first 12 digits?

That is a weird idea

[Jerical13]

Sorry Ricky, you broke the rule about magically changing the NXT market cap much higher.

By restricting to NXT trading, <scenario>

Please, without using magic, tell me how anybody would sell $1 billion USD worth of assets for NXT.

James

I guess ya gotta make a decision on whether NXT will appreciate most in value by expanding itself into the role of becoming the premier 1.0 currency or by restricting itself to the role of being a the premier 2.0 trading asset exchange.

Looks like ya can't have both....

We can have both. I do not see why it is mutually exclusive at all. In fact, I predict that the vast majority of trading in the AE will be against NXT, just like the vast majority of trading in Ripple is against XRP. This is probably due to the counterparty risks

However, I want to make sure that if OPEC wanted to start trading oil for gold, or oil for CNY, or oil for pink unicorns that they will have a viable option with NXT AE

James

In the long term it would be a bad idea to do this. If NXT is a better platform for commerce than any other platform, then it will be used. The focus should be to make NXT this type of platform, and making the NXT currency subordinate is counter productive to this.

[mthcl]

It's all fine to say "let the market decide" but you do know that in many countries "it is illegal to squat on domain names" (countries like say Australia).

Also look at .bit - how well has that done?

Basically the squatting has pretty much ruined any impetus it had at all.

I tend to agree with CIYAM in this discussion.

[CIYAM]

Another thing that springs to mind wrt randomness would be looking at "the past" (so say the payload hash of the block at height x - 1440).

Other things to "add entropy" might be the account's public key and their balance at whatever point in time and one could even require "hash iterations" or the like so that "trying to calculate" ticket values for all possible accounts in order to try and game might be more costly that the time it takes to forge a block.

[abctc]

Well, there is more to consider. Humans and machines need to uniquely identify an asset.
For machines, a cryptic number is okay. They simply do not care.
For humans, that numbers are not. They need readable and catchy names.

+ 1440 !!  I wonder, why it isn't obvious for all...

[CIYAM]

Well, there is more to consider. Humans and machines need to uniquely identify an asset.
For machines, a cryptic number is okay. They simply do not care.
For humans, that numbers are not. They need readable and catchy names.

+ 1440 !!  I wonder, why it isn't obvious for all...

There *will be a readable* name - the choice is one of two:

Microsoft (a fake but readable name)

or

Microsoft:12334
Microsoft:12345

Uh oh? What it this - seems I need to find out more.

Which method is "helping" the end user to get *scammed* and which is not?

[mthcl]

Another thing that springs to mind wrt randomness would be looking at "the past" (so say the payload hash of the block at height x - 1440).

Other things to "add entropy" might be the account's public key and their balance at whatever point in time and one could even require "hash iterations" or the like so that "trying to calculate" ticket values for all possible accounts in order to try and game might be more costly that the time it takes to forge a block.

But, "the past" is known to the attacker at the current time, so why does this add randomness?

[CIYAM]

But, "the past" is known to the attacker at the current time, so why does this add randomness?

True not adding randomness - but if they have to check "all tickets" then provided the information is *different per ticket* then it will take "more effort" to do this checking.

If you add in hash rounds the amount of time required to do all the checking might just end up being *not worth the effort* (as you do need to forge within 1 minute).

[eXme]

someone else having problems with their account like, i installed latest version entered my key and i have 0 coins but on blockchain i have my coins.. ??

8182846507686630691 0.00 on my PC

my wallet on blockchain http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=8182846507686630691

[pandaisftw]

The whole broken idea of DNS names was something from the 1980's.

It is now getting closer to 2020 and we *need to do things differently* and in a *decentralised manner* rather than just "it was good enough back then".

The aliases is basically .bit and look how well that went.

If a user gets *confused* by duplicate names *then that is good* as they are unlikely to just "click one at random" and "buy shares".

Unique suffixes is as close to decentralized identification as you get (beside account #'s, but that's not easily readable)... all other methods require some sort of trust from outside of NXT.

Last part applies to suffixes as well.

[CIYAM]

Unique suffixes is as close to decentralized identification as you get (beside account #'s, but that's not easily readable)... all other methods require some sort of trust from outside of NXT.

Unique suffixes give us:

Software:Microsoft (scam)

I am the one *trying to prevent this*. Why are you *against that*?

If Joe sees "two confusingly same named Assets" he *does not waste his money*.

In your system - he can easily get tricked.

In either system some sort of "proper check" needs to occur - but my approach can make it "obvious" there is a problem whereas your approach *hides that*.

Being *easily readable* BUT A SCAM is just what a scammer wants!

[GCInc.]

Offspring standalone crypto client v0.3.4e has been released

Main updates: Clickable blockchain explorer and Asset Exchange with current testnet features enabled.

http://offspring.dgex.com/

[mthcl]

But, "the past" is known to the attacker at the current time, so why does this add randomness?

Yes - but if they have to check "all tickets" then provided the information is *different per ticket* then it will take "more effort" to do this checking.

If you add in hash rounds the amount of time required to do all the checking might just end up being *not worth the effort*.

So, this depends on the assumptions about the processing power the attacker has? Then one never knows...