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Author Topic: [DEAD] DeepBit.net PPS+Prop,instant payouts, we pay for INVALID BLOCKS too  (Read 1560274 times)
sharky112065
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August 18, 2011, 02:19:37 AM
 #3981

I still think there are hoppers hopping in and out. I notice around 200 to 300 Ghash/s dropping and coming back multiple times I check the stats. Also my payouts vary way more than they used to.

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August 18, 2011, 02:25:08 AM
 #3982

I still think there are hoppers hopping in and out. I notice around 200 to 300 Ghash/s dropping and coming back multiple times I check the stats. Also my payouts vary way more than they used to.

well there is nothing stopping a hopper from adding deepbit into their strategy in some fashion.

perhaps they are using long polling in some crude way to predict a solved block by deepbit, or perhaps
they hop into deepbit when every other pool appears undesirable, or they figure that by quickly coming
in and out has a very good percentage chance of getting in on a short block versus a long one?

maybe people use deepbit as a backup pool and when a pool has a short term problem a hundred
ghash/s shows up for a bit?

maybe deepbit is big enough where a couple hundred ghash/s difference every several minutes is normal
churn from the 1000s of users who use it...

 
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August 18, 2011, 07:24:32 AM
 #3983

I still think there are hoppers hopping in and out. I notice around 200 to 300 Ghash/s dropping and coming back multiple times I check the stats.

balls, run latest poclbm and see your hashrate serverside, that is higher/lower than average, now sum hashrate of all users and you'll get +/- 5% because that stat is updated once a minute, increase that minute to an hour or two and you'll get real pool speed

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August 19, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
 #3984

we all gave up hoppin and took up mormonism.


but really yall shouldnt notice, we arent even a spec compared to the hash rate here. And the speed of blocks being found makes efficient hoping nearly impossible which is why most hoppers just use deepbit for backup

I tried to hop Deepbit but it's hardly profitable.
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August 19, 2011, 08:35:41 AM
 #3985

I hadn't used deepbit in a very long time (2 months Cheesy ), and now submitted a few shares.
From the stats page, I can tell that I should've earned 0.01558598BTC total (I stopped mining more than 1 hour ago). However, my current balance shows as 0.01234512 BTC, even though I had a sub-0.01BTC amount left in there from 2 months ago.
PM me your login name, I'll check it.
I sent it, but so far no response.

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August 19, 2011, 11:03:03 AM
 #3986

we all gave up hoppin and took up mormonism.
but really yall shouldnt notice, we arent even a spec compared to the hash rate here. And the speed of blocks being found makes efficient hoping nearly impossible which is why most hoppers just use deepbit for backup
Please don't try to mislead people, I know the truth :)

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August 19, 2011, 11:06:21 AM
 #3987

I sent it, but so far no response.
I got your message and will reply when the cause will be found. Sorry for delay.

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August 19, 2011, 11:41:32 AM
 #3988

we all gave up hoppin and took up mormonism.
but really yall shouldnt notice, we arent even a spec compared to the hash rate here. And the speed of blocks being found makes efficient hoping nearly impossible which is why most hoppers just use deepbit for backup
Please don't try to mislead people, I know the truth Smiley

real truth is that it assumes that every block after long poll belongs to DP and mines here for ~5 minutes, try it and see yourself...

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August 20, 2011, 01:56:31 AM
 #3989

Tycho,

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
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August 20, 2011, 08:06:42 AM
 #3990

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.

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August 20, 2011, 01:31:28 PM
 #3991

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.
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August 20, 2011, 06:37:34 PM
 #3992

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.

why not just post the verbiage anyway then when ready implement detection when ready.
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August 21, 2011, 02:59:42 PM
 #3993

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.
What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!

It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.

Many of your users are completely new and unaware of any 50% attacks, that other pools are also existing (because many forum threads that were started some time ago only mention deepbit, as it was nearly the only pool around) or that there are alternatives to prop + PPS. Please reconsider delaying stats + forcing policies that won't be able to only hit pool hoppers (and which most likely will be circumventable) and switching to a proven secure payout system instead.
PPLNS for example still lets users earn more if the pool has a luck streak (no crazy 0.07 BTC shares most likely though...), is dead simple to explain and is actually more "proportional" than prop., as it takes the hash rate into account more.

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August 21, 2011, 04:12:44 PM
 #3994

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.
What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!

It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.

Many of your users are completely new and unaware of any 50% attacks, that other pools are also existing (because many forum threads that were started some time ago only mention deepbit, as it was nearly the only pool around) or that there are alternatives to prop + PPS. Please reconsider delaying stats + forcing policies that won't be able to only hit pool hoppers (and which most likely will be circumventable) and switching to a proven secure payout system instead.
PPLNS for example still lets users earn more if the pool has a luck streak (no crazy 0.07 BTC shares most likely though...), is dead simple to explain and is actually more "proportional" than prop., as it takes the hash rate into account more.


fuck this rant!  this is all bullshit.  i want a simple payout system, which we have here.  i don't want some exotic variations that will fuck me over if my miner goes down.  nor am i interested in debating this.

the "solution/s" , as I read about them on different post, are too frikin complicated.  thus never ready for prime time.
All in all, the simplest solution is the best one.

Simple solution:

- post the rules.  now anyone still hopping on deepbit is violating TOS.

- identify hopping behavior (very easy to do) and suspend the account.

- when the person logs in, tell them that their account has been flagged as hopping.

- give them another opportunity to Agree to TOS that spell out: "not going to hop"

- if they violate again. suspend the account.

since this would be automated, let them open a million accounts. and get a million accounts banned.  an automated system won't get tired.  a hopper, will on the other hand.
 
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August 21, 2011, 10:08:04 PM
 #3995

What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!
No legitimate users are planned to be screwed at all.

It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.
Bank robbery is just "an optimized approach to withdraw funds", yeah ? :)
It's not evil to start and stop mining whenever one pleases, but it's evil to deliberately use some automated techniques that are known to hurt other users and the pool itself.
Currently we don't have any counter-measures that can impact legitimate users.

Please reconsider delaying stats + forcing policies that won't be able to only hit pool hoppers (and which most likely will be circumventable) and switching to a proven secure payout system instead.
I'm thinking about adding a third payment mode for a long time already, but even then I'll have to protect Proportional users as long as they like to use that method.

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August 22, 2011, 05:02:09 AM
 #3996

What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!
No legitimate users are planned to be screwed at all.
So how is anyone who submits valid shares during a round not legitimate?


It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.
Bank robbery is just "an optimized approach to withdraw funds", yeah ? Smiley
It's not evil to start and stop mining whenever one pleases, but it's evil to deliberately use some automated techniques that are known to hurt other users and the pool itself.
Currently we don't have any counter-measures that can impact legitimate users.
Pool hopping is like using something like http://geizhals.at/ to compare online shops for best prices - why on earth do you compare it to bank robbery? Noone gets paid anything less or more than the proportional payout for the shares he/she/it submits. Pool hoppers ONLY gain more from this because other miners are "loyal" enough to mine knowingly at a loss during longer blocks, which is a bad economic decision. They are hurt by these decisions, not by pool hoppers. It is not even possible for anyone except you as the operator to determine exactly how far into a round you are, so for an average user it is not even possible to know whether he is mining at a loss or not! And THIS is called "protection" of your users?

Also @CanaryInTheMine:
Please watch your tone.

It is NOT trivial to identify hoppers without the possibility that some (un)fortunate users who did not inted to hop but show the same patterns get targeted too. It is actually impossible to do so unless you can identify hoppers via a user agent - something that would have been possible, but since another pool already tried that it's no longer an option.

Also as you said - creating an account is easy... and as long as CAPTCHAs can be solved cheaper than the potential gain from pool hopping, any counter measures on an account basis are useless.

Oh, btw. anti hopping measures are exactly what you don't want: Some exotic variation that will fuck you over if your miner goes down.

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August 22, 2011, 06:19:59 PM
 #3997

What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!
No legitimate users are planned to be screwed at all.
So how is anyone who submits valid shares during a round not legitimate?


It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.
Bank robbery is just "an optimized approach to withdraw funds", yeah ? Smiley
It's not evil to start and stop mining whenever one pleases, but it's evil to deliberately use some automated techniques that are known to hurt other users and the pool itself.
Currently we don't have any counter-measures that can impact legitimate users.
Pool hopping is like using something like http://geizhals.at/ to compare online shops for best prices - why on earth do you compare it to bank robbery? Noone gets paid anything less or more than the proportional payout for the shares he/she/it submits. Pool hoppers ONLY gain more from this because other miners are "loyal" enough to mine knowingly at a loss during longer blocks, which is a bad economic decision. They are hurt by these decisions, not by pool hoppers. It is not even possible for anyone except you as the operator to determine exactly how far into a round you are, so for an average user it is not even possible to know whether he is mining at a loss or not! And THIS is called "protection" of your users?

Also @CanaryInTheMine:
Please watch your tone.

It is NOT trivial to identify hoppers without the possibility that some (un)fortunate users who did not inted to hop but show the same patterns get targeted too. It is actually impossible to do so unless you can identify hoppers via a user agent - something that would have been possible, but since another pool already tried that it's no longer an option.

Also as you said - creating an account is easy... and as long as CAPTCHAs can be solved cheaper than the potential gain from pool hopping, any counter measures on an account basis are useless.

Oh, btw. anti hopping measures are exactly what you don't want: Some exotic variation that will fuck you over if your miner goes down.

Do explain "Please watch your tone."  what is this? some sort of censorship?

I don't agree with your assessment of triviality to detect hopping.  Are you familiar with probabilities and statistics? Confidence intervals etc...?  I guess not...

counter measures are not useless.  they make you a harder target.

You misunderstood my exotic variation comment.  it's a direct reference to specific, currently in place payout algos on other pools.  On some pools that employ these exotic payout schemes, if your miner goes down (say half way into the round) you are SOL (more so depending on length of time).

my exotic variation was not about detection algorithms, but existing payout algos that attempt to discourage hoppers.

But ultimately, it is the pool's policy that has to drive this.  As long as the Terms Of Service of a pool do not prohibit hopping explicitly, I hate to break it to you all: hopping is OK.  If you want it out of your pool, set the rules first.

Lack of spelled out rules only creates debates and apparently the need to watch my tone.
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August 22, 2011, 06:55:37 PM
 #3998

Do explain "Please watch your tone."  what is this? some sort of censorship?

I haven't heard anyone suggest/imply any censorship, and I certainly wouldn't want that.

But I could do without the profanity.
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August 22, 2011, 09:23:58 PM
Last edit: August 22, 2011, 09:39:05 PM by burp
 #3999

If you want to ban users that show "suspicious behaviour" I hope you publish a detailed definition of what hopping is. I mean, can anyone define pool hopping for me please? If you say _exactly_ what you mean by pool hopping users can decide to stay or not.

Does pool hopping mean _always_ staying less than 43%? What if I stay always until 45%? Will you ban me? What if I stay in 10% of the rounds until the end of the round. Will you ban me then? Without a precise definition you are going for an unfair system.

@Tycho It's silly to compare pool hopping with bank robbery and you know it. I can just assume you show this behaviour because the majority of people apparently don't really understand what pool hopping is and how it exactly works. It's a hard to grasp thing, statistics can be hard to grasp. See the gamblers fallacy. It's hard to understand why leaving the pool at ~43% is optimal. But it's not stealing or such a thing of any kind! What you do is further spread misinformation, and if you call pool hopping bank robbery, I call this spreading of misinformation a crime.

I can understand that you want to keep your current hashing power and the pool size. Most or at least the visible majority doesn't seem to grasp pool hopping the way it is, so you hop onto their misunderstandings and keep the flawed proportional system. Why don't you try to convice people and help them understand the very simple(!) and perfectly fair PPLNS system?

The _only_ solution is to switch to a fair system or keep a fair one. What fair is, is also a matter of definiton, it might be proportional or PPLNS, but it's certainly not proportional with banning some users because of their miners schedule!
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August 22, 2011, 11:30:44 PM
 #4000

You know hopping is wrong. You know you are screwing the people that do not hop. If every one hopped very few blocks would get solved. The pool op has stated very clearly "Pool hoppers are not welcome here".

Use all the justifications that make it OK in your head that you want. It is still wrong to do it and you know it.

The current system allows for an occasional problem when a miner is having issues and you still get paid for shares submitted. Pool hoppers abuse this and eventually we will all be screwed because of the changes made to stop them.

Stop being childish, hold yourself accountable for your actions and stop blame shifting.

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