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Author Topic: [DEAD] DeepBit.net PPS+Prop,instant payouts, we pay for INVALID BLOCKS too  (Read 1453751 times)
Tx2000
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August 17, 2011, 07:47:31 PM
 #3981

Anyone else getting connection issues / fail to connect in the last hour or so?  Other pools work fine.
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Kermee
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August 17, 2011, 07:57:01 PM
 #3982

Anyone else getting connection issues / fail to connect in the last hour or so?  Other pools work fine.

Not here.

Cheers,
Kermee

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August 17, 2011, 08:36:18 PM
 #3983

Anyone else getting connection issues / fail to connect in the last hour or so?  Other pools work fine.

yes, I see some connection problems too.

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August 17, 2011, 10:36:19 PM
 #3984

Holy crap how lucky was I?

A block was found in 2 seconds.  I run at 400 m/hash and I got 1 share out of the total 630.  I ended up with .07 BTC.  In 2 seconds.  Sweeeet.

I was able to get 3 shares in. LOL

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sharky112065
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August 18, 2011, 02:19:37 AM
 #3985

I still think there are hoppers hopping in and out. I notice around 200 to 300 Ghash/s dropping and coming back multiple times I check the stats. Also my payouts vary way more than they used to.

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August 18, 2011, 02:25:08 AM
 #3986

I still think there are hoppers hopping in and out. I notice around 200 to 300 Ghash/s dropping and coming back multiple times I check the stats. Also my payouts vary way more than they used to.

well there is nothing stopping a hopper from adding deepbit into their strategy in some fashion.

perhaps they are using long polling in some crude way to predict a solved block by deepbit, or perhaps
they hop into deepbit when every other pool appears undesirable, or they figure that by quickly coming
in and out has a very good percentage chance of getting in on a short block versus a long one?

maybe people use deepbit as a backup pool and when a pool has a short term problem a hundred
ghash/s shows up for a bit?

maybe deepbit is big enough where a couple hundred ghash/s difference every several minutes is normal
churn from the 1000s of users who use it...
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August 18, 2011, 07:24:32 AM
 #3987

I still think there are hoppers hopping in and out. I notice around 200 to 300 Ghash/s dropping and coming back multiple times I check the stats.

balls, run latest poclbm and see your hashrate serverside, that is higher/lower than average, now sum hashrate of all users and you'll get +/- 5% because that stat is updated once a minute, increase that minute to an hour or two and you'll get real pool speed

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August 19, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
 #3988

we all gave up hoppin and took up mormonism.


but really yall shouldnt notice, we arent even a spec compared to the hash rate here. And the speed of blocks being found makes efficient hoping nearly impossible which is why most hoppers just use deepbit for backup

I tried to hop Deepbit but it's hardly profitable.
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August 19, 2011, 08:35:41 AM
 #3989

I hadn't used deepbit in a very long time (2 months Cheesy ), and now submitted a few shares.
From the stats page, I can tell that I should've earned 0.01558598BTC total (I stopped mining more than 1 hour ago). However, my current balance shows as 0.01234512 BTC, even though I had a sub-0.01BTC amount left in there from 2 months ago.
PM me your login name, I'll check it.
I sent it, but so far no response.

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August 19, 2011, 11:03:03 AM
 #3990

we all gave up hoppin and took up mormonism.
but really yall shouldnt notice, we arent even a spec compared to the hash rate here. And the speed of blocks being found makes efficient hoping nearly impossible which is why most hoppers just use deepbit for backup
Please don't try to mislead people, I know the truth :)

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net - Both payment schemes (including PPS), instant payout, no invalid blocks !
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August 19, 2011, 11:06:21 AM
 #3991

I sent it, but so far no response.
I got your message and will reply when the cause will be found. Sorry for delay.

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net - Both payment schemes (including PPS), instant payout, no invalid blocks !
ICBIT Trading platform : USD/BTC futures trading, Bitcoin difficulty futures (NEW!). Third year in bitcoin business.
jkminkov
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August 19, 2011, 11:41:32 AM
 #3992

we all gave up hoppin and took up mormonism.
but really yall shouldnt notice, we arent even a spec compared to the hash rate here. And the speed of blocks being found makes efficient hoping nearly impossible which is why most hoppers just use deepbit for backup
Please don't try to mislead people, I know the truth Smiley

real truth is that it assumes that every block after long poll belongs to DP and mines here for ~5 minutes, try it and see yourself...

Bleutrade
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CanaryInTheMine
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August 20, 2011, 01:56:31 AM
 #3993

Tycho,

What is this pool's policy on hopping?

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[Tycho]
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August 20, 2011, 08:06:42 AM
 #3994

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net - Both payment schemes (including PPS), instant payout, no invalid blocks !
ICBIT Trading platform : USD/BTC futures trading, Bitcoin difficulty futures (NEW!). Third year in bitcoin business.
d3m0n1q_733rz
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August 20, 2011, 01:31:28 PM
 #3995

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.
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CanaryInTheMine
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between a rock and a block!


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August 20, 2011, 06:37:34 PM
 #3996

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.

why not just post the verbiage anyway then when ready implement detection when ready.

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August 21, 2011, 02:59:42 PM
 #3997

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.
What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!

It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.

Many of your users are completely new and unaware of any 50% attacks, that other pools are also existing (because many forum threads that were started some time ago only mention deepbit, as it was nearly the only pool around) or that there are alternatives to prop + PPS. Please reconsider delaying stats + forcing policies that won't be able to only hit pool hoppers (and which most likely will be circumventable) and switching to a proven secure payout system instead.
PPLNS for example still lets users earn more if the pool has a luck streak (no crazy 0.07 BTC shares most likely though...), is dead simple to explain and is actually more "proportional" than prop., as it takes the hash rate into account more.

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CanaryInTheMine
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between a rock and a block!


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August 21, 2011, 04:12:44 PM
 #3998

What is this pool's policy on hopping?
Hoppers are not welcome here.

This policy is not yet added to the pool rules because my hopping-detection routine is not ready. When I'll be able to detect poolhoppers with low enough number of false positives, this policy may become forced.
I know that some people call proportional method "flawed", but since there are lots of users that like this method, I have to protect them from evil ones.
What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!

It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.

Many of your users are completely new and unaware of any 50% attacks, that other pools are also existing (because many forum threads that were started some time ago only mention deepbit, as it was nearly the only pool around) or that there are alternatives to prop + PPS. Please reconsider delaying stats + forcing policies that won't be able to only hit pool hoppers (and which most likely will be circumventable) and switching to a proven secure payout system instead.
PPLNS for example still lets users earn more if the pool has a luck streak (no crazy 0.07 BTC shares most likely though...), is dead simple to explain and is actually more "proportional" than prop., as it takes the hash rate into account more.


fuck this rant!  this is all bullshit.  i want a simple payout system, which we have here.  i don't want some exotic variations that will fuck me over if my miner goes down.  nor am i interested in debating this.

the "solution/s" , as I read about them on different post, are too frikin complicated.  thus never ready for prime time.
All in all, the simplest solution is the best one.

Simple solution:

- post the rules.  now anyone still hopping on deepbit is violating TOS.

- identify hopping behavior (very easy to do) and suspend the account.

- when the person logs in, tell them that their account has been flagged as hopping.

- give them another opportunity to Agree to TOS that spell out: "not going to hop"

- if they violate again. suspend the account.

since this would be automated, let them open a million accounts. and get a million accounts banned.  an automated system won't get tired.  a hopper, will on the other hand.
 

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August 21, 2011, 10:08:04 PM
 #3999

What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!
No legitimate users are planned to be screwed at all.

It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.
Bank robbery is just "an optimized approach to withdraw funds", yeah ? :)
It's not evil to start and stop mining whenever one pleases, but it's evil to deliberately use some automated techniques that are known to hurt other users and the pool itself.
Currently we don't have any counter-measures that can impact legitimate users.

Please reconsider delaying stats + forcing policies that won't be able to only hit pool hoppers (and which most likely will be circumventable) and switching to a proven secure payout system instead.
I'm thinking about adding a third payment mode for a long time already, but even then I'll have to protect Proportional users as long as they like to use that method.

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net - Both payment schemes (including PPS), instant payout, no invalid blocks !
ICBIT Trading platform : USD/BTC futures trading, Bitcoin difficulty futures (NEW!). Third year in bitcoin business.
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August 22, 2011, 05:02:09 AM
 #4000

What is a "low enough number of false positives" - meaning: How many % of legitimate users are you willing to screw over?!
No legitimate users are planned to be screwed at all.
So how is anyone who submits valid shares during a round not legitimate?


It is NOT "evil" to start and stop mining whenever you please! It is "evil" however to have a payout system that is mathematically proven to be flawed(!) and taking counter measures that will always also impact users that don't even know of pool hopping at all.
Bank robbery is just "an optimized approach to withdraw funds", yeah ? Smiley
It's not evil to start and stop mining whenever one pleases, but it's evil to deliberately use some automated techniques that are known to hurt other users and the pool itself.
Currently we don't have any counter-measures that can impact legitimate users.
Pool hopping is like using something like http://geizhals.at/ to compare online shops for best prices - why on earth do you compare it to bank robbery? Noone gets paid anything less or more than the proportional payout for the shares he/she/it submits. Pool hoppers ONLY gain more from this because other miners are "loyal" enough to mine knowingly at a loss during longer blocks, which is a bad economic decision. They are hurt by these decisions, not by pool hoppers. It is not even possible for anyone except you as the operator to determine exactly how far into a round you are, so for an average user it is not even possible to know whether he is mining at a loss or not! And THIS is called "protection" of your users?

Also @CanaryInTheMine:
Please watch your tone.

It is NOT trivial to identify hoppers without the possibility that some (un)fortunate users who did not inted to hop but show the same patterns get targeted too. It is actually impossible to do so unless you can identify hoppers via a user agent - something that would have been possible, but since another pool already tried that it's no longer an option.

Also as you said - creating an account is easy... and as long as CAPTCHAs can be solved cheaper than the potential gain from pool hopping, any counter measures on an account basis are useless.

Oh, btw. anti hopping measures are exactly what you don't want: Some exotic variation that will fuck you over if your miner goes down.

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