[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[luigi1111]

MNs will show up on the blockchain many orders of magnitude more often than non-MN clients. It's a blockchain-based form of traffic analysis. We can tell the difference between clients and MNs by this alone and it's REALLY obvious.

Not necessarily. When RC4 hits, there's going to be a frenzy of MN activity as everyone's balances get randomly denominated. After that, my gut instinct is that with increased actual use, the MN tx's aren't going to stand out at all amongst 'real' transactions.

They're still going to be fundamentally different TX types: denominating transactions, versus combining (multiple inputs) transactions. The point is it doesn't matter.

As I mentioned above, if you have, say, 27.000 DRK (27 DRK exactly, comma users), and you denominate it into whatever, and if you later recombine all your denominated addresses (via multiple input) to send 27 DRK to someone else (or even yourself), there exists a *suggestive* link between the original denomination TX and the new sending TX. It's not mathematical proof or anything, though.

You've latched onto a trivialized case of Darksend+. The laundered amount and the transaction amount do not normally match! The only way they would match is if you laundered your wallet of 27 DRK and then emptied all the denominated addresses totally to a new address to pay for something costing 27 DRK. That's not how it will work in practical terms. You'll launder 27 coins and then send 12 of them to pay for something that costs 12 DRK. Now there's no suggestive link between laundering and transaction amount. These events also occur at different points in time (and for the laundering part, you can mix your coins 2 to 8 times over).

Please don't think *I'm* latching on to that! This is all in response to Camo's thought's/questions (just so we're all on the same page).

[1715218484]

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[HinnomTX]

Just one point about this: sending your *full* balance anonymously has always been a problem (unless your full balance happens to be a denomination size (good luck)). It's not a problem that is easy to fix in a transparent blockchain model. I'm not sure it even can be fixed, but would love to read a solution to it.

I have a solution. Don't do that.
The QT client can warn the user that to send the full balance, the transaction should be broken into multiple transactions. It may even be able to space out transactions for you over multiple blocks. That would be a nice feature actually!

[Freckleg]

MNs will show up on the blockchain many orders of magnitude more often than non-MN clients. It's a blockchain-based form of traffic analysis. We can tell the difference between clients and MNs by this alone and it's REALLY obvious.

Not necessarily. When RC4 hits, there's going to be a frenzy of MN activity as everyone's balances get randomly denominated. After that, my gut instinct is that with increased actual use, the MN tx's aren't going to stand out at all amongst 'real' transactions.

They're still going to be fundamentally different TX types: denominating transactions, versus combining (multiple inputs) transactions. The point is it doesn't matter.

As I mentioned above, if you have, say, 27.000 DRK (27 DRK exactly, comma users), and you denominate it into whatever, and if you later recombine all your denominated addresses (via multiple input) to send 27 DRK to someone else (or even yourself), there exists a *suggestive* link between the original denomination TX and the new sending TX. It's not mathematical proof or anything, though.

You've latched onto a trivialized case of Darksend+. The laundered amount and the transaction amount do not normally match! The only way they would match is if you laundered your wallet of 27 DRK and then emptied all the denominated addresses totally to a new address to pay for something costing 27 DRK. That's not how it will work in practical terms. You'll launder 27 coins and then send 12 of them to pay for something that costs 12 DRK. Now there's no suggestive link between laundering and transaction amount. These events also occur at different points in time (and for the laundering part, you can mix your coins 2 to 8 times over).

Exactly! It is beautiful!

[HinnomTX]

Please don't think *I'm* latching on to that! This is all in response to Camo's thought's/questions (just so we're all on the same page).

Fair enough.

[camosoul]

They don't happen at random intervals. They happen all at once.

But they don't happen all at once; mixing occurs over more than one round, and inputs don't all occur at round 1. Your inputs might begin at round 1 (in the graphic), while Joe's inputs might start at 2, and Sally's at 3, and so forth.

Ah, you make my point for me!

Joe's start at 2. Pre-denominated as 1+1+5+10+10. Also, Joe is not a MN and it's obvious. He's actually sending something, so all that scattering of sigs can pretty much be ignored. Where the hell did he send it? We don't know yet. We wait. Or, if we're "investigating" we look forward on the old blockchain... To the block/tx where we see 1+1+5+10+10 assigned to something. Joe sent 27DRK to Somebody. If there was a sale on Silk Road 2.0 for 27DRK, we now "know" (government version of knowing something) that Joe is SR 2.0, or is a vendor on SR 2.0. We just keep watching that 27DRK... It arrives at an exchange! We get a subpoena! Exchange gives up the info. Aw, Joe was smart and registered with a tormail email address and used no real information. But, he did use someone else's real info to make it look good. In fact, Joe was really smart, and used someone's info that lives 1500 miles away, to whom he has no connection of any kind, and he looked up that address via TOR as well. So, this innocent person gets a knock on their door... They are very badly inconvenienced, but in the end, nothing happens, it's a dead end. Now the investigators are grumpy for being mad a fool of... The subpoenaed information does include something useful; Joe traded that DRK for BTC! Since the price is volatile, it is easy to find the exchange rate correlation, and BTC is way easier to trace. He sent it to CoinBase! Somebody is Joe's Self! Another subpoena. Joe now has a cellmate who thinks he's sexy...

What happened to Sally? She doesn't have anything to do with SR 2.0. She can barely install the Windows DRK client, much less wrap her head around TOR or ever use it... But for all we know Joe used Sally's address on that crypto-exchange, and she got her life all messed up by these jerks anyway. Maybe the mere accusation and days missed from work resulted in her getting fired in her right-to-work State? Do the guvthugs give a shit? No. Is there any recourse? No. She's fucked and she never did anything wrong.

Maybe the correlations didn't lead to any of the right people. Then a mess of completely innocent people got strung up even if they didn't go to prison... The government does not give one flying fuck about the difference between correlation and causation when it comes to fucking yo up just because they can and they get off on that shit. "You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride." Even if the Chiefs don't convict you, the Indians will make you suffer just because they are sadistic fucks who get off on it, and DRK gave them the excuse... DRK's protection is insufficient to guard against this.

Me? I decided to tumble on bitcoinfog. I was smart and I only pulled a random fraction out of the tumbler. I won't make another withdrawal from said tumbler until I first make a deposit. I always randomize my withdrawal quantities and timing. The quantities never add up. I always leave some change on the tumbler. And not just dust. Often large chunks. Sure, I had to trust them. But I've been using them for half a decade and they've never screwed me. Nothing wrong with trust. Even if bitcoinfog is run by the guv itself, nothing adds up because I also made my deposits and preceding withdrawals using the same principles. What guvthugs? Because my input timing was random and did not correlate, I was MORE secure using BTC than I was with DRK! Nobody has any fucking clue what happened because the ins and outs don't match, and none of it happened in any concerted timing. I left some coin hanging in multiple places, and it'll sit there getting mixed really good on shared wallets with zero taint as I wait for more sales to accumulate, and I'll scramble it all up again... The only one who doesn't get fucked, is the one guy that actually broke the law!

(I do not perform any illegal activities, it's just a qualified example)

So, the overall quantity can be correlated by sig. It's as if entry-point sends aren't denominated at all, even if they are. It still correlates.

As demonstrated, it still correlates and under the wrong government (which already exists pretty much everywhere) it can still fuck the innocent.

Hell, you don't even need the sig, that just helps. Since the MNs don't actually mix, they're essentially nullified from an anon standpoint simply because what goes in must come out, and it does so in a predictable and measurable manner.

[thelonecrouton]

Just one point about this: sending your *full* balance anonymously has always been a problem (unless your full balance happens to be a denomination size (good luck)). It's not a problem that is easy to fix in a transparent blockchain model. I'm not sure it even can be fixed, but would love to read a solution to it.

I have a solution. Don't do that.
The QT client can warn the user that to send the full balance, the transaction should be broken into multiple transactions. It may even be able to space out transactions for you over multiple blocks. That would be a nice feature actually!

It's not a problem anyway. Say you send your entire balance, and it's the only transaction in that block. An observer sees some randomly denominated amounts pass between multiple random addresses. What meaningful information can be gleaned from that? Bugger all, I contend.

[GhostPlayer]

 I dont think I 've ever mentioned this, but my favourite fruit is the banana.

 Both the taste, texture and the sound... banana! Its lovely!! banana banana banana... try it!!

 (no funny sexual jokes please)

[CHAOSiTEC]

Your thinking in 2D, you need to think in 3D

the amounts being laundered are mixed with 10, 50 maybe 100 or even 1000 wallets, now if all goes through 8 mn, i would say i are going to have a real challenge to figure out what goes where. the beauty of private key vs public key is, you cannot figure out the private key by looking at the public key, and therefor you cannot point a given address to a specific person.

[chaeplin]

Why 2 hops is minimum ?
Why 'any unmixed' term is used ?

Might be denomination + coinjoin is processed by two Masternodes.




ref : https://i.imgur.com/2ScgLQl.jpg

[camosoul]

I dont think I 've ever mentioned this, but my favourite fruit is the banana.

Both the taste, texture and the sound... banana! Its lovely!! banana banana banana... try it!!

(no funny sexual jokes please)

I prefer to pronounce it "Banaynay." It makes people look at me funny. I like it when people look at me funny.

It's the only fruit I like... We totally have something in common! It's almost like we're the same person! [hugs]

[Hueristic]

 I dont think I 've ever mentioned this, but my favourite fruit is the banana.

 Both the taste, texture and the sound... banana! Its lovely!! banana banana banana... try it!!

 (no funny sexual jokes please)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l924olE7ZJU

[sharkbyte093]

I dont think I 've ever mentioned this, but my favourite fruit is the banana.

Both the taste, texture and the sound... banana! Its lovely!! banana banana banana... try it!!

(no funny sexual jokes please)

I prefer to pronounce it "Banaynay." It makes people look at me funny. I like it when people look at me funny.

It's the only fruit I like...

Bananas aint got shit on apples, and apples aint got shit on Mangos. Although Mango skin contains the same compound that's in poison ivy, which is not so fun.

[camosoul]

the amounts being laundered are mixed with 10, 50 maybe 100 or even 1000 wallets, now if all goes through 8 mn, i would say i are going to have a real challenge to figure out what goes where. the beauty of private key vs public key is, you cannot figure out the private key by looking at the public key, and therefor you cannot point a given address to a specific person.

So, it boils down to denomination method coupled with volume, if there ever is that much...

I think I saw mempool get up to 12 once...

Even if a pubkey can't be used to make a privkey (the foundation of keypair encryption, so we presume it hasn't exploded yet), the sigs can still be verified as being related to the same privkey, even if we don't know the privkey.

Isn't that the whole point of signing? So that the action or message can be certified as coming from the correct source? This, all pubkeys and signatures can be correlated tot he same privkey, even if we don't know what it is.

We can still say "The same key did all this." I think PGP would be in a very sad state if that were not true... Not to mention all cryptocurrencies would be completely fucked... Thus, denominated sends still correlate to their aggregate value even if there are 1000 denomianted TXes all on the same block. We just wait for the same thing to happen on the exit end... A sent X to B.

The MNs aren't actually mixing TXes, they're just signing.. Which makes me wonder; why even bother? So it's a fog... It's a fog that we can easilly identify that which goes in and out of said fog... So, uh, it's functionally like there is no fog. Say I walk into the fog, then I come out. Did I become a different person? Even if I change my short while in the fog, you can still tell by other traits that it's me...

[raze182]

I dont think I 've ever mentioned this, but my favourite fruit is the banana.

Both the taste, texture and the sound... banana! Its lovely!! banana banana banana... try it!!

(no funny sexual jokes please)

I prefer to pronounce it "Banaynay." It makes people look at me funny. I like it when people look at me funny.

It's the only fruit I like...

Bananas aint got shit on apples, and apples aint got shit on Mangos. Although Mango skin contains the same compound that's in poison ivy, which is not so fun.

Apples are okay, but I'm always getting pieces of the skin caught in my teeth. I'm partial to Kiwifruit and pears.

[coins101]

I dont think I 've ever mentioned this, but my favourite fruit is the banana.

Both the taste, texture and the sound... banana! Its lovely!! banana banana banana... try it!!

(no funny sexual jokes please)

I prefer to pronounce it "Banaynay." It makes people look at me funny. I like it when people look at me funny.

It's the only fruit I like...

Bananas aint got shit on apples, and apples aint got shit on Mangos. Although Mango skin contains the same compound that's in poison ivy, which is not so fun.

Apples are okay, but I'm always getting pieces of the skin caught in my teeth. I'm partial to Kiwifruit and pears.

Drkberries

[eltito]

I think Camo's scenario is only an issue if everyone is using the exact same mixing depth.  Differences in user-selected mixing depth create more or less randomized exit points, no?  With volume, I'm not sure how you can provably link a sum entering the anon phase with a sum exiting.

[camosoul]

I think Camo's scenario is only an issue if everyone is using the exact same mixing depth.  Differences in user-selected mixing depth create more or less randomized exit points, no?

Not really...

I'm demonstrating that mixing depth is irrelevant. If you see X go in and X come out, then the fog is irrelevant no matter how foggy it is or how long X stays in said fog...

Why? Because the mix is not actually mixing anything. We can tell the difference between TX and SIG. I'm trying to understand how MNs actually do any anon in their current form...

[coins101]

Anyone got Kristov's drk address for donations?

[novaboy2k]

Development Updates - July 15th

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

+710

+1 ;-0

[camosoul]

I also wanted point out this little tidbit:

Development on RC4 is nearing an end and we expect that we’ll be firing up testnet in the coming week. Depending on what we find, testing and QA should take 2 to 4 weeks.

Trolls will undoubtedly try to leverage this potential way-past-end-of-july news...