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Question: I would purchase mining time with...
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Author Topic: GPUMAX | The Bitcoin Mining Marketplace  (Read 200367 times)
P4man
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March 30, 2012, 08:59:12 AM
 #1261

In the end I would envision that many mining ops will sell their services for immediate profit, while other services will buy those and resell those services. This make actually diminish the risk of anyone purchaser controlling too much network

What you describe to some extend explains long term mining contracts, where the buyer assumes the risk of currency fluctuation and difficulty changes, while the seller (usually) gets cash up front and income security. Thats perfectly sensible, and something I suspect gpumax will also offer in the future.

But right now, buying on GPUmax is very short term, your hashes are processed in a matter of hours, or days at most. Unless you can somehow produce more bitcoins than you spent on that short timeframe,  and knowing that you have to pay 160% of the expected return of a hash, the question remains: why?

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March 30, 2012, 11:10:13 AM
 #1262

In the end I would envision that many mining ops will sell their services for immediate profit, while other services will buy those and resell those services. This make actually diminish the risk of anyone purchaser controlling too much network

What you describe to some extend explains long term mining contracts, where the buyer assumes the risk of currency fluctuation and difficulty changes, while the seller (usually) gets cash up front and income security. Thats perfectly sensible, and something I suspect gpumax will also offer in the future.

But right now, buying on GPUmax is very short term, your hashes are processed in a matter of hours, or days at most. Unless you can somehow produce more bitcoins than you spent on that short timeframe,  and knowing that you have to pay 160% of the expected return of a hash, the question remains: why?

Service Level Agreements + Minimum Hash Rates. 160% of todays price may well still be 500% below tomorrows price, and so MHRs will need to be maintained for some organizations.

Another reason? Let's say I got a really big farm, and I come to an arrangement with a large pool op to put my hashes there. Let's say the pool op thinks I have enough hash power to make it worthwhile to make a special deal and reduce fees, if I will guarantee MHR with SLA of 99.99% uptime for 100% of the MHR. Now let's say I have a 3 ton A/C unit die, and I have to shutdown 75% of my hashes for 3 days to repair - if I can't buy this spot contract, I lose the deal I have with the pool op, and cut my long term income.

One more reason (and the opposite of the threat this model poses) is so that a large vested interest (think large volume money business, bank) can buy spot hash power for protection - i.e. if they were to suspect that Pool A is too big (or a competitor might amass contracts nearing 51%) - they might start to outbid competitors until they confirmed a minimum % control. Another way, one organization might buy massive spot contracts to execute at a specified time for control to reduce any potential transaction attacks.

Obviously, the second reason is a way off before people really start to act on it, but as the business around bitcoin grows, so will the mining industry (I would hope!)

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March 30, 2012, 12:00:34 PM
 #1263

Service Level Agreements + Minimum Hash Rates. 160% of todays price may well still be 500% below tomorrows price, and so MHRs will need to be maintained for some organizations.

Another reason? Let's say I got a really big farm, and I come to an arrangement with a large pool op to put my hashes there. Let's say the pool op thinks I have enough hash power to make it worthwhile to make a special deal and reduce fees, if I will guarantee MHR with SLA of 99.99% uptime for 100% of the MHR. Now let's say I have a 3 ton A/C unit die, and I have to shutdown 75% of my hashes for 3 days to repair - if I can't buy this spot contract, I lose the deal I have with the pool op, and cut my long term income.

Thats essentially the same reason as above and makes little sense for two reasons; if you have such hashrate, you dont need a  pool, and youd be bonkers to  enter a contract that costs you a lot of money on top of your downtime if the foreseeable happens. I also see no incentive for the pool op to set an arbitrary minimum  and extort heavy penalties if they are not met. Such demands would only drive up the price of the contract for no apparent reason.

Now I can imagine scenarios where buying hashrate above expected revenue makes sense for short period of time on a limited amount of shares. But, second reason; we are apparently talking about >10% of the entire network. I dont think you are suggesting miners are constantly trying to make up for an unexpected  10% shortfall of the hashrate they sold? Consider the amount of miners not involved in such contracts; it would mean the ones you are talking about are suffering at least 50% unexpected outages all the time.

I dont think this exlains the demand on gpumax.

Quote
One more reason (and the opposite of the threat this model poses) is so that a large vested interest (think large volume money business, bank) can buy spot hash power for protection - i.e. if they were to suspect that Pool A is too big (or a competitor might amass contracts nearing 51%) - they might start to outbid competitors until they confirmed a minimum % control. Another way, one organization might buy massive spot contracts to execute at a specified time for control to reduce any potential transaction attacks.

IOW, a 51% attack. Sure some people might try and  pay the price to achieve that. But not on a continual basis, and its not whats happening right now. Its a possible worry-some potential abuse if GPUmax ever got that big. But its not why people are buying at gpumax right now.




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March 30, 2012, 03:29:32 PM
 #1264

Ultimately all I can think of as to why (a question burning at me as well and I feel bloody stupid that I haven't figured it out yet):

There is some "trick" or "minor exploit" out there, that when used increases return on mining in some kind of reliable way (a statistical way to predict luck reliably on a pool using a certain share payout method for example) and because said tricks/exploits are ultimately a zero sum game in the long term, if everyone knew about the trick, then it would ultimately result in less return. But if select few know the trick, they stand to gain a lot. Those select few are the ones using GPUMAX, and they are likely making a killing. And they are unwilling to share their trick, because that means less advantage for them. Eventually the trick will get out there, and it will become the norm. When that happens they will loose their massive advantage. The trick may rely on the ability to ramp up and down lots of mining quickly, making GPUMAX still viable long-term for the people who choose to leverage such a method.

A good example case would be day trading on the exchanges. You can make a killing on bitcoin if you have a solid day trading strategy, and automated systems to allow you to trade high volume, high frequency effectively. But if EVERYONE did it, the market would stabilize much more. The volatility would be reduced, and the returns on the day trading would become much much smaller. So the few that have it "figured out" aren't sharing the "how" because if they did they would loose their huge advantage (right now an individual that can make 3% gain per day consistently is looking at doubling their money every 24 days on average. But if everyone started doing it the volatility might drop far enough to reduce that to only 0.5% per day consistently. It's still a viable means of making money, so it will continue to make sense even after the "secret" is out. And not EVERYONE will do it because it still requires a certain amount of know-how and resources. But they will keep their secret as long as they can to ensure that 3% lasts as long as possible.

I think the same thing is going on with GPUMAX. There is a "Secret" that the "Buyers" are using. They are currently making say 180% gains on it, so they are happy to pay 150% on mining shares. But once the secret is out, it might mean only 120% gains, so the average price to miners will fall to 110% on shares. It will still be viable, but for now they are being tight lipped because it secures their advantage. And the few miners who are "sellers" and may be aware of the trick (if they aren't using it themselves lol) are staying tight lipped too, because when the minority are the buyers and they can make 180% each, that keeps the overall average PPS price higher, making it more profitable for the "sellers")

I know this doesn't exactly explain the actual WHY people are buying shares. But after doing much digging around, and thinking about it a fair bit, this makes the most sense as to the answer as to why people are being so tight lipped about it.

Now if I could just figure out what the "it" is Wink lol so I could be in on the party... But until then I'm happy making the bonus payout on my shares mined against GPUMAX for now Wink

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March 30, 2012, 03:35:11 PM
 #1265

Ultimately all I can think of as to why (a question burning at me as well and I feel bloody stupid that I haven't figured it out yet):

There is some "trick" or "minor exploit" out there, that when used increases return on mining in some kind of reliable way (a statistical way to predict luck reliably on a pool using a certain share payout method for example) and because said tricks/exploits are ultimately a zero sum game in the long term, if everyone knew about the trick, then it would ultimately result in less return. But if select few know the trick, they stand to gain a lot. Those select few are the ones using GPUMAX, and they are likely making a killing. And they are unwilling to share their trick, because that means less advantage for them. Eventually the trick will get out there, and it will become the norm. When that happens they will loose their massive advantage. The trick may rely on the ability to ramp up and down lots of mining quickly, making GPUMAX still viable long-term for the people who choose to leverage such a method.

A good example case would be day trading on the exchanges. You can make a killing on bitcoin if you have a solid day trading strategy, and automated systems to allow you to trade high volume, high frequency effectively. But if EVERYONE did it, the market would stabilize much more. The volatility would be reduced, and the returns on the day trading would become much much smaller. So the few that have it "figured out" aren't sharing the "how" because if they did they would loose their huge advantage (right now an individual that can make 3% gain per day consistently is looking at doubling their money every 24 days on average. But if everyone started doing it the volatility might drop far enough to reduce that to only 0.5% per day consistently. It's still a viable means of making money, so it will continue to make sense even after the "secret" is out. And not EVERYONE will do it because it still requires a certain amount of know-how and resources. But they will keep their secret as long as they can to ensure that 3% lasts as long as possible.

I think the same thing is going on with GPUMAX. There is a "Secret" that the "Buyers" are using. They are currently making say 180% gains on it, so they are happy to pay 150% on mining shares. But once the secret is out, it might mean only 120% gains, so the average price to miners will fall to 110% on shares. It will still be viable, but for now they are being tight lipped because it secures their advantage. And the few miners who are "sellers" and may be aware of the trick (if they aren't using it themselves lol) are staying tight lipped too, because when the minority are the buyers and they can make 180% each, that keeps the overall average PPS price higher, making it more profitable for the "sellers")

I know this doesn't exactly explain the actual WHY people are buying shares. But after doing much digging around, and thinking about it a fair bit, this makes the most sense as to the answer as to why people are being so tight lipped about it.

Now if I could just figure out what the "it" is Wink lol so I could be in on the party... But until then I'm happy making the bonus payout on my shares mined against GPUMAX for now Wink
Pool hopping.

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March 30, 2012, 03:45:20 PM
 #1266

Ultimately all I can think of as to why (a question burning at me as well and I feel bloody stupid that I haven't figured it out yet):

There is some "trick" or "minor exploit" out there, that when used increases return on mining in some kind of reliable way (a statistical way to predict luck reliably on a pool using a certain share payout method for example) and because said tricks/exploits are ultimately a zero sum game in the long term, if everyone knew about the trick, then it would ultimately result in less return. But if select few know the trick, they stand to gain a lot. Those select few are the ones using GPUMAX, and they are likely making a killing. And they are unwilling to share their trick, because that means less advantage for them. Eventually the trick will get out there, and it will become the norm. When that happens they will loose their massive advantage. The trick may rely on the ability to ramp up and down lots of mining quickly, making GPUMAX still viable long-term for the people who choose to leverage such a method.

A good example case would be day trading on the exchanges. You can make a killing on bitcoin if you have a solid day trading strategy, and automated systems to allow you to trade high volume, high frequency effectively. But if EVERYONE did it, the market would stabilize much more. The volatility would be reduced, and the returns on the day trading would become much much smaller. So the few that have it "figured out" aren't sharing the "how" because if they did they would loose their huge advantage (right now an individual that can make 3% gain per day consistently is looking at doubling their money every 24 days on average. But if everyone started doing it the volatility might drop far enough to reduce that to only 0.5% per day consistently. It's still a viable means of making money, so it will continue to make sense even after the "secret" is out. And not EVERYONE will do it because it still requires a certain amount of know-how and resources. But they will keep their secret as long as they can to ensure that 3% lasts as long as possible.

I think the same thing is going on with GPUMAX. There is a "Secret" that the "Buyers" are using. They are currently making say 180% gains on it, so they are happy to pay 150% on mining shares. But once the secret is out, it might mean only 120% gains, so the average price to miners will fall to 110% on shares. It will still be viable, but for now they are being tight lipped because it secures their advantage. And the few miners who are "sellers" and may be aware of the trick (if they aren't using it themselves lol) are staying tight lipped too, because when the minority are the buyers and they can make 180% each, that keeps the overall average PPS price higher, making it more profitable for the "sellers")

I know this doesn't exactly explain the actual WHY people are buying shares. But after doing much digging around, and thinking about it a fair bit, this makes the most sense as to the answer as to why people are being so tight lipped about it.

Now if I could just figure out what the "it" is Wink lol so I could be in on the party... But until then I'm happy making the bonus payout on my shares mined against GPUMAX for now Wink


I mine at gpumax with over 40g.

I have made purchases.  about 7 of them.  overall i lost some btc's..  but it was fun. I will probably do it again.

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March 30, 2012, 03:49:35 PM
 #1267


Pool hopping.

Yeah, but the pools avail to mine too on GPUmax arent even that great for pool hopping. I used to hop w/ bithopper you need many prop pools to hop effectively. Right now GPUmax just doesnt offer that.

I have a question, I have no idea what to set my asking price too for mining on GPUmax. Is the current fee of .000055 considered the middle of the road of asking prices by miners?
If so, setting it close to like .00005 and I should still be mining publicly often? Its not till above .000055 that I would hardly be selected to mine publicly right?

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March 30, 2012, 03:50:43 PM
 #1268

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.

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March 30, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
 #1269

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.
It can be, if you have absolute shit tons of hashpower, a la GPUMAX.

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March 30, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
 #1270

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.

Pool hopping return rate is right around 133% on avg.
Given electricity could easily be another 33% if you would normally have to run the hardware yourself.
Your looking at bringing the 160% down by 33% to 127%, so w/ hopping youre return would be 106%

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March 30, 2012, 03:54:41 PM
 #1271

BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?

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March 30, 2012, 04:02:26 PM
 #1272

BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?

P is pretty good about getting the payments out..

my last payout was :  receive gpumax 2.23923825 confirms: 139

139 confirms is about 25 hours?

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March 30, 2012, 04:03:26 PM
 #1273

BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?
Since there's been no (or little) public work, you get a payout from your offline pool, not GPUMAX.

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March 30, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
 #1274

BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?
Since there's been no (or little) public work, you get a payout from your offline pool, not GPUMAX.

Um....Ive been getting my pool payout just fine, but my public work payout, well I havent gotten one yet and I should have gotten one a couple hours ago at least!
Ive been doin public work a majority of the time in the last 2 days.

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March 30, 2012, 04:08:18 PM
 #1275

BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?
Since there's been no (or little) public work, you get a payout from your offline pool, not GPUMAX.

Um....Ive been getting my pool payout just fine, but my public work payout, well I havent gotten one yet and I should have gotten one a couple hours ago at least!
Ive been doin public work a majority of the time in the last 2 days.
If you have been getting public work, then payout should be in about an hour (noon central as usual).

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March 30, 2012, 04:18:54 PM
 #1276

okies, Ill check then. Thanks

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March 30, 2012, 04:26:58 PM
 #1277

Pool hopping return rate is right around 133% on avg.
Given electricity could easily be another 33% if you would normally have to run the hardware yourself.

What does electricity have to do with it? electricity cost doesnt enter the equation here.  Or do you want to buy my bitcoins at 120% market value if I mined them with expensive electricity Smiley ?

Ultimately all I can think of as to why (a question burning at me as well and I feel bloody stupid that I haven't figured it out yet):

There is some "trick" or "minor exploit" out there,

Thats my thinking too.
There is another angle you could to look at. As we all know, mining is a zero sum game. If we assume someone is indeed making profits from buying those hashes, then one question you should ask: who is losing?

Its certainly not gpumax users. Best I can tell, its not miners at other pools either. At least their luck is unaltered as far as we know, and obviously their hashrate is unaffected. The only way they could be affected is if these GPUmax purchases are somehow driving up difficulty; in that case, they could be paying the price.

One factor driving up difficulty right now is the "mystery miner".
So I keep coming back to that, and I cant see what the connection could be,  yet I wouldnt be surprised one bit if there was a connection. Somehow.
All mysteries are related after all Smiley

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March 30, 2012, 04:44:21 PM
 #1278

Pool hopping return rate is right around 133% on avg.
Given electricity could easily be another 33% if you would normally have to run the hardware yourself.

What does electricity have to do with it? electricity cost doesnt enter the equation here.  Or do you want to buy my bitcoins at 120% market value if I mined them with expensive electricity Smiley ?

Ultimately all I can think of as to why (a question burning at me as well and I feel bloody stupid that I haven't figured it out yet):

There is some "trick" or "minor exploit" out there,

Thats my thinking too.
There is another angle you could to look at. As we all know, mining is a zero sum game. If we assume someone is indeed making profits from buying those hashes, then one question you should ask: who is losing?

Its certainly not gpumax users. Best I can tell, its not miners at other pools either. At least their luck is unaltered as far as we know, and obviously their hashrate is unaffected. The only way they could be affected is if these GPUmax purchases are somehow driving up difficulty; in that case, they could be paying the price.

One factor driving up difficulty right now is the "mystery miner".
So I keep coming back to that, and I cant see what the connection could be,  yet I wouldnt be surprised one bit if there was a connection. Somehow.
All mysteries are related after all Smiley


Electricity factors into the equation, based on what I posted before. As a miner, my electricity usage accounts for 33% of the coins I make, so 33% is already a loss. The other 66% is my profit. With purchasing shares on gpumax, you dont have this issue, because your not paying for the electricity of others. Therefore take 33% (in my case) off the 160% premium and around 127% premium is what I would be paying for those hashes.

Also, to your 2nd point. There would be losses, pool hopping implies losses to long time miners at a prop pool, especially the longer a round gets past 43% diff.

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March 30, 2012, 04:49:11 PM
 #1279

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.
300% if the timing is perfect, but the timing window is very tight, if you miss it by 15-20 minutes, you'd get shit in return.
....especially when your purchase got activated 4-5 hours later.

used to be very reliable when there's only a few people.


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GenTarkin
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March 30, 2012, 04:52:54 PM
 #1280

Pool hopping.

Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing.
300% if the timing is perfect, but the timing window is very tight, if you miss it by 15-20 minutes, you'd get shit in return.
....especially when your purchase got activated 4-5 hours later.

used to be very reliable when there's only a few people.
300%?!?! I seriously doubt that. That depends on all hopped pools being EXTREMELY lucky and they solve blocks well ahead of the 43% diff mark.
Its practically a max of 150-160% given normal luck, if timed right. It avg's out to around 130% for hoppers using bithopper proxies.

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