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Author Topic: [ANN] AEON [2018-07-12: update to 0.12.5.0+]  (Read 578158 times)
smooth
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April 23, 2018, 11:23:13 PM
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 #5401

On the plus side, at least they are admitting that the PoW they devised to be ASIC-resistant in the past isn't very resistant now

FYI, the current Monero team had nothing to do with devising the original algorithm.

I feel it kind of did okay in holding off not only ASICs but even domination of CPUs by GPUs for four years, which is more than can be said for most if not all other algorithms which have tried that. But in the end the designers made some incorrect assumptions and it proved to be broken.

This isn't really just a question of technology moving on, as CPUs (and GPUs) have also improved significantly so ASICs had and have a moving target. But still the algorithm just did not do what it was supposed to do.

multi-gigabyte memory requirements

Large memory requirements will not in and of themselves make it ASIC resistant. If just the amount of memory is the the main issue, then ASIC builders can just attach a lot of cheap external memory as they are doing with Ethereum ASICs. (Not intended as a review of MTP generally, just the comment about memory usage.)

Yes, Fluffypony's justification is because Monero is still a small network. But then are they also planning for the longterm future of the project? Of course, and I reckon they should make determined efforts to deal with ASICs now than going for short term solutions in between.

But if they are doing it to buy time for their ultimate solution then good on them. They are one of the best development teams in the cryptospace for a reason.

I'm pretty sure FP has explained his reasoning being that ASICs need to get to the point where they are commoditized before they can be relied upon for a decentralized mining network. Size of the network and industry could be part of that. And yes he has said that he expects the best solution to be ASICs eventually, but not yet.
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huyenphung8698
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April 25, 2018, 04:03:25 PM
 #5402

I just disabled banning on my pool, and will reenable it some time after the fork. This should let people switch a bit before or after without issues caused by temporary bad hashes.

M A E S T R O  ▾  Revolutionizing the Digital Music World  ▾  https://maestroproject.io/
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April 26, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
 #5403


Now I ask, wouldn't it be better if we went straight to the ASIC friendly, but easier to commoditize mining chip production algorithm, than going through hardfork after hardfork?



Do you happen to know of one such algorithm that is vetted to be secure and is currently available or can be easily put into production for ASIC chips?

If there isn't such a chip that allows for (relatively) decentralised ASIC mining, then the next best thing to do is simply going to be delaying tactics to allow the coin to be mined in a decentralised manner until such an algorithm becomes available and chips are produced for it.
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April 26, 2018, 05:37:31 PM
 #5404

I guess it's meant in a way that GPU won't give you any performance boost when compared to CPU mining.
Currently my i7 4790 is on par with R9 280x (yam vs CN gpu miner).
[/quote]

can you post your yam-xmr config file please? iam attemtping to use that miner but my 4770k cant seem to so more then 160h/s
yenphuong2903
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April 27, 2018, 04:49:38 AM
 #5405

Come on guys/gals start pushing those votes on polo and maybe get in touch with bittrix and see if they will list aeon as well.... more exchanges the better the covereage
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April 27, 2018, 05:07:22 AM
 #5406

Come on guys/gals start pushing those votes on polo and maybe get in touch with bittrix and see if they will list aeon as well.... more exchanges the better the covereage

It's on bittrex already, not sure about bittrix tho. Also, neither of those exchanges has voting...less retarded bot accounts the better the discourse
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April 27, 2018, 10:53:44 AM
 #5407

So, is Aeon POW changing to V7 anytime soon, or not really?

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April 27, 2018, 01:19:45 PM
 #5408

Agreed. Monero's idea of slightly altering the PoW parameters every X months is just whack-a-mole, and doesn't sound like a proper development plan for any serious tech person. On the plus side, at least they are admitting that the PoW they devised to be ASIC-resistant in the past isn't very resistant now, because (omg) technology moves on. (Gosh, is it really 7 years since we developed the first Bitcoin FPGA miners? I still have that dev board lying around.)

For something arguably more ASIC-resistant, Boolberry has had its Wild Keccak for a few years, but I guess it's NIH for everyone else. Zcoin's upcoming MTP also looks interesting with its multi-gigabyte memory requirements. But even they won't be ASIC-proof forever -- remember when 640 KB was enough for everybody?

FYI, the current Monero team had nothing to do with devising the original algorithm.


No, but in a sense they did take credit for it by promoting the algorithm as such without making improvements to harden it, so the burden is theirs to carry just the same. I fully agree with teknohog's assumption that their decision to alter PoW parameters every quarter is flawed logic and shows level of amateur design and development going into Monero. It's no wonder why Edward Snowden classifies it as an amateur cryptocurrency project.

On the other hand Boolberry distanced itself from Cryptonight with the introduction of Wild Keccak which, just like the Monero traceability report relative to Boolberry's guaranteed output, shows level of understanding and foresight not present anywhere in Monero. Although both Cryptonight and Wild Keccak use weakened cryptographic primitives without any justification being provided by either authors; WK is a step in the right direction with regards to providing ASIC performance resistance over Cryptonight with its blockchain based scratchpad.


I feel it kind of did okay in holding off not only ASICs but even domination of CPUs by GPUs for four years, which is more than can be said for most if not all other algorithms which have tried that. But in the end the designers made some incorrect assumptions and it proved to be broken.

This isn't really just a question of technology moving on, as CPUs (and GPUs) have also improved significantly so ASICs had and have a moving target. But still the algorithm just did not do what it was supposed to do.

Holding off ASICs? No offense, but you seem to have a very basic understanding of algorithm design and ASIC development.. ASICs are ALWAYS possible regardless of the underlying algorithm. The idea of being "ASIC resistant" that somehow said algorithm prevents the design and development of an ASIC is a fallacy that's been regurgitated by armchair cryptographers across the cryptocurrency space.

The proper term should be "ASIC performance resistance" as the key to preventing hardware dominance is proper algorithm design for correct cost/benefit/performance analysis. I give crypto_zoidberg as free pass here with regards to him branding Wild Keccak as "ASIC resistant" due to his language barrier, no doubt he meant ASIC performance resistant vs typical terminologies.

Development of an ASIC is roughly 10m USD just to get to a prototype stage. If the end result is an ASIC that performs on par with its CPU or GPU counterparts then the algorithm still retains it's decentralized property thus can be classified as egalitarian. At that point it's purely a matter of who to support Intel, AMD or a new hardware manufacturer with an interest in said currency rather than a question of 100% performance gain over the former.


multi-gigabyte memory requirements

Large memory requirements will not in and of themselves make it ASIC resistant. If just the amount of memory is the the main issue, then ASIC builders can just attach a lot of cheap external memory as they are doing with Ethereum ASICs. (Not intended as a review of MTP generally, just the comment about memory usage.)


Again, nothing will make anything ASIC resistant in the typical terminology used by armchair cryptographers as ASIC development is always possible with any algorithm. Reducing hardware dominance to retain egalitarian properties can only be achieved with proper design. The easy fix here would be to adopt Wild Keccak as replacement for Monero's algorithm as it is a direct drop in replacement a worthy successor to Cryptonight.

Or the more logical approach would be to simply just take up an interest in Boolberry and support the superior project. Now that Crypto_zoidberg is back with a full team of developers to support him and the fundamental flaws present in Monero's design it's the only logical decision at this point. Instead of simply migrating to Monero's codebase like Aeon is doing, Zoidberg is making substantial improvements with his own unique LMDB implementation (due for release next week) which leaves 3 unique cryptonote codebases: Bytecoin, Monero and Boolberry.

https://github.com/cryptozoidberg/boolberry/branches

(work on LMDB can be viewed on LMDB and LMDB_Core branches).

https://medium.com/@BoolberryBBR/boolberry-monthly-progress-report-march-ccb7d1433472


(Not intended as a review of MTP generally, just the comment about memory usage.)


Not taken as one, however, our our full review on MTP-Argon2 can be viewed at the ePrint below.

"Itsuku: a Memory-Hardened Proof-of-Work Scheme"
https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/1168

What started as an initial review of Cryptonight, Wild Keccak and later MTP-Argon2 spiraled into full blown R&D of a new algorithm Itsuku. Over the course of the last year we've achieved 1/16th the proof size of the original MTP design and hardened it against all known attack vectors. We also provide proper hardware design for the algorithm. Among other things, the beauty of Itsuku is that memory bandwidth is the limiting factor, not the size, so even 64GiB over 4GiB will not see much improvement. This algorithm will be used in our upcoming Moneda [XMN] and Doubloon [XDB] reference projects. ZCoin and Turtlecoin are the only projects I know of waiting for us to release either reference project so they can use the algorithm in their system.

https://github.com/turtlecoin/meta/issues/74

Feel free to read through it. In section 6, we briefly outline comparative analysis between Cryptonight, Wild Keccak and Itsuku. That will give you a better understanding of the underlying systems here. We plan on releasing another paper that focuses purely on Cryptonight vs Wild Keccak with improvements that will be made to the latter increase egalitarian properties however this will be released after only after our next paper is published.

In our initial discovery we've found that WK is much better suited than CN to retain said properties. As stated earlier the quick and easy solution would be to adopt WK but again at that point you'd be better off just supporting Boolberry as the original developer is back on the project full time.
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April 27, 2018, 03:21:43 PM
 #5409

ah i see .bat file in blockchain download file , but folder dont' generate when i run it
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April 27, 2018, 04:20:53 PM
 #5410

...words....

so this is basically an advertisment for boolberry?



"We are just fools. We insanely believe that we can replace one politician with another and something will really change. The ONLY possible way to achieve change is to change the very system of how government functions. Until we are prepared to do that, suck it up for your future belongs to the madness and corruption of politicians."
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April 27, 2018, 04:46:39 PM
 #5411

...words....

so this is basically an advertisment for boolberry?




Yes, and not to veer too far afield, but the crux of the argument in the advertisement seems to be "buy now because zoidberg is back", which seems like a pretty silly reason to buy since however smart the guy is he is clearly flaky af and could disappear for another three years at any moment. Bilberry was interesting, wasn't a fan of the 1% dev tax, but that seems mild and quaint by today's standards - I don't think you can raise a currency from the dead though (which to some extent aeon is attempting to do as well).
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April 28, 2018, 01:55:18 AM
 #5412

Sort of true. The original developer abandoned it but I did create a patched version in my github with critical fixes, so it is still usable.
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April 28, 2018, 06:00:26 AM
 #5413

Very little actual understanding of anything, but apparently threw some money at someone to write a paper.

I recognize the distinct pungent odor of a parasitic opportunist marketer and coin pumper. 1Blockologist, is that you? Or maybe one of the other persistent BBR pumpers and Monero haters from over the years? One of the ones who predicted the rise of BBR overthrowing Monero back in 2014? Always fun to reminisce. Thanks!

Welcome to the AEON thread. Enjoy your stay!
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April 28, 2018, 01:32:56 PM
 #5414

I'm a little concerned that if there is no news or promotion the coin may be removed from Poloniex.
Its very cheap. At the current price the entire 18.4M notes will only be worth about 40 BTC.
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April 28, 2018, 03:17:56 PM
 #5415

I'm a little concerned that if there is no news or promotion the coin may be removed from Poloniex.
Its very cheap. At the current price the entire 18.4M notes will only be worth about 40 BTC.

I think you're on the wrong thread.
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April 28, 2018, 07:23:19 PM
 #5416

@Elder III

It is a plagiarism bot repost from this much older reply: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=641696.msg8358605#msg8358605

Likely done to rank up Newbie accounts for sig campaign earnings.


Also, update from stuffu about the upstream Monero bug that has been affecting the AEON rebase code:

I did some digging into the code and I seem to have found the bug that was making the daemon stuck: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/3719
I've updated the pre-release v0.1.8 accordingly, so please try it out: https://github.com/stoffu/monero-core/releases/tag/v0.1.8
If we see no further issue after a while of testing, and when moneromooo puts a rubber stamp on the code, I think we're finally ready to set the fork height and announce the official release.
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April 29, 2018, 11:08:22 AM
 #5417

please leave feedback about the update release candidate I announced a few days ago.
If no problems are uncovered we will proceed to a release stage with binaries soon.
The feedback about the wallet and other ideas is great. I have some interesting and exciting ideas for this coin. Since we are a small community we can try things that are a bit too radical for bigger coin like Monero. Stay tuned and please keep the ideas flowing!
BTW, in response to the comments about including a non-anonymous coin in a wallet, that is not necessary since cryptonote can also be used non-anonymously. Transparency and audit features, when desired, are part of the protocol.
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April 30, 2018, 02:29:11 AM
 #5418

Should I continue to mine this coin?

https://akropolis.io/
♦ AKROPOLIS ♦ Blockchain Pensions Infrastructure ♦
♦ Token Generation Event Q2 2018 ♦
thehihoguy
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April 30, 2018, 07:21:55 AM
 #5419

Is it possible to adjust the mnemonic seed list without affecting the already generated ones? ie change certain electrum words while allowing already generated wallets to still work?

Would suggest, that we exchange following seed word:

 {"rape", 1609},


https://github.com/aeonix/aeon/blob/master/src/crypto/electrum-words.h

This seed word is unacceptable for state of the art tech, specially combined with certain other words.

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April 30, 2018, 03:56:54 PM
 #5420

...words....

so this is basically an advertisment for boolberry?




Yes, and not to veer too far afield, but the crux of the argument in the advertisement seems to be "buy now because zoidberg is back", which seems like a pretty silly reason to buy since however smart the guy is he is clearly flaky af and could disappear for another three years at any moment. Bilberry was interesting, wasn't a fan of the 1% dev tax, but that seems mild and quaint by today's standards - I don't think you can raise a currency from the dead though (which to some extent aeon is attempting to do as well).

I think having a committed dev is an integral part of a project and AEON is superior in that way since there is Stoffu and Smooth and none of them ever left the project on a whim.

The source from which existing things derive their existence is also that to which they return at their destruction.
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